In Aviation a publicity stunt can easily turn around and bite you. Almost thirty years back an Air India publicity boasted that their captains could land on a news paper. Unfortunately a few months later a B707 of the same company landed on Mont Blanc and people joked about it. Hope this young very talented lady always lands on the center line of the runway!

@nitpicker : gud on ya ! that u had to work ur way up and i pretty sure u are a top notch pilot but mate all i'm sayin is just because she got an early break doesnt mean all the indian trainee pilots are experienced hobo's who have their life tailor made and have the first officer job gift wrapped and presented it to them .we do work our Ass off !and deserve to be in the RHS with just 250 hrs of flying . In no way does it make sense that you have to stick to general aviation for 3-5yrs in order to gain the experience to enter the big jets. If you got what it takes and the favour of god ! All things are possible...... :ok:

josh with that sort of attitude i hope you are never in the cockpit of a jet that i'm a passanger in

@superdunkaroos : u dont have to worry ! i dont intend to fly LCC's :} jus kiddin mate !

Whatever makes you feel good josh.

250 hrs before getting the right seat ain't near enough my friend and one day when the wetness behind your ears drys off you may begin to comprehend.

Until then good luck and keep the blue side up.:ok:

Oh and if disaster strikes I certainly hope that the QRH covers it bud because you earn your pay and stripes working "outside" the QRH.
Just ask the QF boys in their A380 in Sin or the CX A330 boys landing at 230 kts in HK. They certainly had only 1 thing to rely apron on those 2 incidents my young learned friend,
Yes that right......EXPERIENCE.

Something the 21 yo new Captain and you DON'T YET HAVE.

So until you do excuse me if I don't recommend friends travel with any Indian registered Airline.

@nitpick : a good friend of mine who is just 20yrs old with basic casa cpl/ir and 100 hrs pic ,fly's for jetstar . care to comment ?? so i reckon u arent gonna recommend ur friends to fly jetstar too ;)



Men are wise in proportion, not to their experience, but to their capacity for experience.
- George Bernard Shaw

Can this thread PLEASE be renamed "21 Year old LADY youngest ATR Captain". Such casual sexism grates.

A380 jockey and the rest of the crowd - I hope my ramblings don't seem senile to most of you.I suggest you read my post carefully and also my previous posts over the years.You will see that I have a balanced unbiased view about this subject.You need to understand that in India , the system is different.You will be on the RHS of a high performance aircraft after your CPL.To keep it short , I had flown with some of the co pilots who are today Captains.While some were very good , there were many who were average or simply below average.Over time as a pilot one learns to detect certain inherent weaknesses in another pilot.Unless this is spotted and corrected , it will recurr at some point in that pilots career.I have seen it happen and I continue to see it happen.The problem in India today is that there is pressure to get people into the LHS and the truth is that many are simply not ready or capable.There is pressure to keep the expats out as much as possible and as a result you will see it's repurcusions in the future.Although I hope it does not happen , it seems inevitable as the sign are already there.For those who are actually in Indian aviation , you will know what I'm talking about.:ok:

Josh..... Yes I won't be flying Jetstar anymore. I have in the past when they employed suitably experience crew but not anymore. I and many others have been opposing that for quite anwhile now.

It's the young ones like you that can hardly spell Boeing that think being an FO with 100 hrs is ok, no surprises there.

Anyone that thinks experience doesn't matter is a fool in the extreme.

As I've said before, good luck you're gunna need lots of it.:D

I'll just keep my eyes and ears wide open when flying in or near India :ok:

Nitpicker raises a valid point that not many have touched upon and many have chosen to ignore : It is a 2 pilot operation, when the captain has no experience and the F/O has even less how can that be considered safe ?
Jetstar has been mentioned and I can assure you that not one of the A320 skippers is close to 21 or 2,500 hrs of flying. If the guy/gal in the LHS has good experience it enables an airline to hire, rightly or wrongly, inexperienced F/Os, but to have no experience in both seats ?
And at 21 years old, I am sure the one thing she is not lacking is confidence, and therein lies a whole other problem.

Well, India ( according to airfleets.net ) has the second highest amount of accidents in the world, second to the US who have just passed legislation to keep inexperinced pilots out of jets. Conversely Australia has one of the best records around and traditionally has had very experienced pilots in the rhs/lhs, that is about to change thanks to bottom-feeding Jetstar so watch this space :suspect:

Unfortunately these young guns just don't get it at all.

A very senior Training Captain used to call them "sons and daughters of the magenta line", it was and is a very good description.

It's all fine and dandy to fly the aircraft around following the magenta line with A/P B engaged but quite another to have the experience to operate outside the realms of their training (QRH ) when bad situations present themselves. Lately most of the bad situations required a skill level from the crews outside the norm training to get the job done. ( QF and CX to name just 2 ) Skills not learned from Microsoft Flight Sim or indeed a close reading of FCOM 3.

More importantly because experienced crews have been doing it for quite a while they have a lot more EXCESS capacity in their Brain to analyse what is occurring and work through the problems in a logical manner.

Over the last 30 something years as a professional Aviator I've seen young Top Guns and Old hands and guess which one I'd trust my families lives with???
Yep it ain't the young Top Guns.

Strangely there are some words that are losing their meaning in aviation.

One of them is airmanship.The new generation of plastic pilots barely know what it means.

The other one is experience.After a few sim sections normally poorly done ,and a few hours in front of the FCOMs people come to the conclusion that experience is not necessary anymore.
In all professional activities , experience is welcome.In aviation ,they are discovering that 100 hours is so good, that some countries are introducing the MPL, which will deliver even less experienced F/O to the line.

There are no substitute for experience,and a person with 21 y.o ,despite beeing the best pilot in the world still didn`t have time to get a minimum of experience and matureness.

The question examiners should ask for themselves before releasing a new Captain is:Would I feel confortable leaving all my family in an airplane with this guy at controls?

But , unfortunately, even the TRE`s are not what they used to be.Some of them don`t know even for themselves.

A3TWENTY

Hmmm... can somebody remind me if this is a competition of being the youngest at this... or the youngest at that?
I recalled some old and wise geezer asked me "Do you wanna be a great pilot or an old pilot?" at that time i didn't know which was the best answer.... but now after all of the experience i am gaining and sure am still learning a lot... it would be best to be an old pilot.
Experience is the best teacher, because it will give you a hindsight of what to do just in case a situation happens that is out of the box or NOT LISTED in the QRH. oh unless they have a sat phone and call their mommy.

And AIRMANSHIP? it can never be taught, it is learned unless THEY have a BOOK for AIRMANSHIP... hmmm gives me an idea to write one....

oh well back to the drawing board.... :ugh:

Sour grapes? Is that the best you can say?

Man oh man what is this world coming too!!

I worked for MAS for 4 years so ya can't fool me about their accident free record!! I've been there done that and have the T Shirt to prove it.
As for SQ!! IF they had 2 experienced FO's on board that 744 in TPE I venture to suggest there would have been a different outcome on the day and maybe the FO might have had the experience to speak up.

You cant get experience from just reading about it in FCOM 3, you have to be out there in the real world DOING IT day in day out under various levels of stress. How much experience is enough? I dont think you can ever have enough but for certain 20 yo FO's with 200 hrs ain't seen enough to be second in charge of a bathtub let a lone a 50 tonne Jet with 150 people depending on them.

If you guys want an answer just fish out the incidents that have been happening in India during the last 6 months.Certainly does raise the hair on your back.:ok:

Since I can't possibly add on to all the excellent elaborations by nitpicker330 and hongkongfooey, etc. I shall keep my opinions plain and simple.

Point No. 1
You can train any average bloke to be a PIC in no time on any modern jet nowadays on routine ops. Just need good discipline, strong memory retention and a good tad of common sense and you'll be there.

Point No. 2
NOTHING can substitute EXPERIENCE. PERIOD.

Bottom line, it depends on how far an airline is willing to go prior to tossing the 4bars onto anyone. I guess in this case, KFA has weighed all options and preferred the publicity stunt. If point no. 2 is NOT true, do you ever believe that the bean counters in the vast majority of Asian carriers will actually not do the same?
Best of luck to the youngest ATR skipper, as someone has put it rightly, she might just need it some day.

i would say that is a very accurate assessment, break_break

my opinion is that aviation is a science that evolves by the minute. the training process worldwide, is geared to cater to the weakest pilot, not the aces. a lot of hard analysis and prescience has gone into making concrete rules and guidelines. there are reasons for example, why a 16 year old is not issued with a CPL, or, a why a nations president is not a young adult. this is an issue not about if, hopefully, maybe with luck, ra ra ra well done. she should not be blamed at all. KFA is downright reckless. will they now promote another 100 more 21 yr olds ?? if this does indeed happen, all pilots in the country will suffer the consequences.
it does show a lack of maturity and long term vision in KFA, and perhaps the, country for allowing it.

i was also in that airindia batch. bavicca passed the airindia sim check and was doing the medicals when she got selected for kingfisher.

she joined kingfisher because she did not like the work-environment in the govt airline.

so did she do her papers and get the license the hard way or is her license a fake one like all the would be newbies pilots :uhoh:

The Young 'Laddie'.
 

@ A380 Jockey,
I think I know for sure who this 'young laddie' is, who you're talking about, and who started flying as an F/O for a major indian carrier at the age of 18 yrs, way back in '84-'85(i'm assuming he's the one you were referring to).
I'm sorry if he's not the same 'laddie' but i'm quite certain nonetheless. I do believe he got his command at a very early age of about 23 odd. At that point in time he was certainly the youngest FO and then Capt to fly around. He would be a certain Sunny Kapur who,I believe is now with SIA. The reason I know this is cause I heard one of my buddies(from Air India)talking about him over one of the many beers we had had....;)
He was last with AI, I believe, and had a budding career ahead of him. I'm quite certain he's doing well for himself with SIA however. Should you wish to contact him,I could fish around for his contact details.
Hope this helps. Always there for a fellow aviator...:ok:

Boeingdream787,
Yep mate.Thats the boy.And thanks for the information.I had the good fortune to chat with him on phone and also caught up with his ol man(who was an old buddy of mine too).He is a veteran pilot too and goes by the handle 'King',in aviation circles.
Great guys and even better pilots.Thanks again for the update.
Check your PM
:)

@ A380 Jockey,
Thanks for the numbers. I didnt know his old man was a pilot too. Great to know of it.
And if I recall correctly,this boy got command on a jet at 23 right? Not sure if it was a bus or a boeing,but I heard from the boys that it WAS a jet..
And all this more than 25 years ago!
Great going....:ok:
Thanks again.

i guess is an indian joke...wondering if the examiner was just his mother, but one thing in this news is great...,i will stay away of any indian carrier, and my friends too........

Another proud moment in Indian History. Raving on about a pilot that would not be considered qualified in the real aviation world outside of India and to believe ounce again that they are the first at everything.
Just sayin. :hmm:

I have friends that fly in Indian Airlines. I hear how the SICs can not land the plane or make a normal approach. If the PIC dies, so does everyone else on the plane. :eek:

Chinese airlines have no problem hiring and using experienced ex-pats to crew their jets as needed in the right seats. They have not lowered their standards just to hire the Chinese kids.

In India, experienced ex-pat pilots are not permitted to be hired to fill the right seat of the plane, forcing operators to hire any Indian national with a Commercial license and a pulse.

@ Silly Pilot,
Not raving about anything here fellas. Started off by trying to correct a small albiet incorrect statment regarding the youngest pilot,made earlier in this post.
That's all.....:cool:
For that matter i'm not even indian.
Cheerio

@A380. My post was not aimed at any particular post. Just another observation.
Cheers!

You are right , India does have it's own problems but I've heard of Sunny Kapoor myself and all that flew with him did say that he was good,very good.And I would certainly feel safe in an aircraft with him flying.:ok:

@ Silly Pilot,
I do apologise for jumping to a conclusion. My bad.
Thanks for clarifying.
@ Sky Dancer,
You have a very high, tone sensitivity(ie a high level of QC),just as myself,when it comes to good pilot judgement.
I would tend to agree with your last post.
Be safe.....and never compromise!

Guys.....sorry for the thread drift(if any). Heard the banter and decided to chip in.
This is with regards to Capt.Sunny Kapur. I know him personally(although,I'm quite certain that his memory of me could be a bit foggy).
All that's said 'bout him in the above posts is too little to describe him.
Great guy,an even better pilot. Great human being and an even better teacher. Selective sometimes,in who he might share his vast resources with. But share,he will! You just gotta prod him a bit. And show your keeness.
And I should know. I was one of his dumbest students!
But,everytime I left the cockpit from one of my training flights with him.....EVERYTIME, I knew I walked out a better pilot. And a more confident one at that. THAT's the mark of a true teacher.
Which is also why I am where I am today...!
In totality. Owe it all to him.
And yes,he WAS the youngest pilot of his time.
A few more like him,and we would have much better times in aviation here in india...:D
Sorry if I got emotional there and a bit philosophical,but hearing good of one's mentors makes one like this!
Off now,
Over n out
KOAW

Koaw, No thread drift there. Quite appropriate post I might add.
And from what i've heard,I would tend to agree with you wholeheartedly. Good to see one acknowledging one's instructor(s).

A380 jockstraps

[I]I do apologise for jumping to a conclusion. My bad.
Thanks for clarifying.
@ Sky Dancer,
You have a very high, tone sensitivity(ie a high level of QC),just as myself,when it comes to good pilot judgement.
I would tend to agree with your last post.
Be safe.....and never compromise! [/I

i cant believe this sort of crap being posted here. jockstraps, this is not the first time. you may want to try some humility. its the first step to becoming a good aviator. and i do feel that you have got it in you to make it someday.

Rdr,
We have had our differences in the past. But I think its time we let go of them.
I agree I have a long way to go in becoming a good aviator. As do we all. That's the name of the game isn't it. Learning...all the time.
Thanks for taking the time to point it out.
Peace now ...:)

ok Jockers, stay well,
rdr

Learning!
 

Wow. That almost got hectic.
As a wise man once said,
'Leadership and learning are indispensable to each other..'
I believe he was right on the money.

Excellent quote BD787.
And thanks for the support. AND all the info you helped me with regards to the sweet Legend of Sunny Kapur.
(Sorry couldn't help it..)
Cheers again and fly safe always...:ok::ok::ok:
See you on the airwaves sometime ..

Great quote BD. And so very appropriate for the man in question. I feel proud and honoured to have had him as my guru and mentor.
Ta ta now

Thanks koaw. I meant every word.
Now back to the topic at hand ..

Just met sunny kapur briefly yesterday, boeingdream787.....
And he remembers you very well and very fondly indeed!
Such fantastic bonds are really developed over a great period of time and a great deal of trust.
Great, great fella. Spoke to his old lady too. She was an aviator too some moons ago you know. Swapped notes and nostalgia. Shall PM you all the relevant stuff. Are you aware that he was one of the youngest trainer too!
Oh well, i just found out. And that too from HIS instructor....:O
Such trivia needs to be published somewhere.
Otherwise it just becomes another number on a licence.
Am proud....that i still have such good connections...
Cheerio my fellow aviators!

Just reading the title i threw up in my mouth.