A bet
 

I would happily place a U$ 1.000 bet that the DGCA final report will be:....
BLAME THE EXPAT PILOT!:E

Is that $1.00 or $1,000?

If at all there is a role played by pilot error, then I guess its natural the commander will be blamed, unless of course it is proved that the commander got incapacitated before the mishap.

So in effect you are betting on pilot error, if thats the case I can safely assume you meant $1,000.

My personal worst case cause for this accident will be high due to cutting corners at DME arc approach, something which was demonstrated by a 100% local crew in Patna crash.

@ Jimmy

Why bother the poor fellow.May be he only has 1 dollar.Thought there was more involved in the Patna crash, like some faulty Rudder system.

Apache, there was no technical fault with the B 737-200 that went down in Patna.It was a case of an unstabilised approach being corrected with a very wrong technique coupled with the failure of the crew to apply the correct stall recovery technique.In addition it is rumored that the pilot's had inter changed seats.The post put up by Full Throttle does carry a lot of merit as the points mentioned are true ...:ok:

Just out of curiosity Sky Dancer. WHY on god's green earth would a crew of a jet airplane ever "interchange seats" and therby jeopordise the lives of almost a half a score passengers. And what facts do you have to support your "theory". If any. Next you will probably be heard rambling that the captain of the 738 in question was flying from the RHS....!!
Quit making self assumptious 'theories' and stick to facts. That is IF you have any!! Poor journalism isn't exactly a fact...and googling an accident doesn't make it reliable information!
Non adherence to SOP was the exact cause. Period.
And who is 'Full Throttle',and where is his post?!
Am off now..

Wasn't trying tpo bother fullforward, just clarifying the bet.

As far as the patna accident is considered, there was an effort to put blame on boeing by hypothesizing that the slats did not extend. I believe such misdirection in investigations come from the role played by the airline in the crash.

Its high time aviation crash investigation should be taken away from DGCA+airline.

The commander of the patna flight was eager to provide some left seat experience to his colleague f/o who was undergoing P1 upgrade, and already had P1 endorsement.

They didn't follow the DME arc, got high on approach requested 360 on final and got real slow. I don't have the report with me, and cannot find it online.
If anyone has the link do post it here.

See my post #56 in this thread. I had linked the Patna crash investigation report in it

PS: Link is below

http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far...ml#post5719635

More re Patna Crash
 

Nightmare in the morning as 51 die in Patna plane crash

Alliance Air Flight 7412 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Boeing 737 Accident Reports (scroll down 1/3 of the way)

And interesting, but a bit of babble:
Aviation: Air Tragedy: Why CD 7412 Crashed

(NB: if my memory serves me right, the rudder reversal refers to the 737 classic hydraulic system that drives the rudder to operate in the opposite sense to that commanded. This was proven by the US NTSB to be due prolonged operations at below freezing temperatures and then rather quick [thermal] heating from hot hydraulic fluid (The Rudder Story). Boeing issued advisories and notices about it to all operating with that system. This WAS NOT a factor in the Patna Crash, as verified by the investigation. Plain and simple pilot's loss of SA. Pilot error.)

TOI May 29 2010
 

" VIP flights force 3 jets to land with no fuel to spare


Arun Ram, TNN, May 30, 2010, 01.17am IST


CHENNAI: Three days after the Mangalore aircrash, three planes that had been diverted from Delhi airport on account of VIP movement, had a narrow shave when they all but ran out of fuel above Jaipur airport. The three flights had more than 450 passengers on board at the time.


Wednesday's Jetlite flight JLL 108 from Mumbai landed with just enough fuel to remain airborne for three minutes. The Mumbai-Delhi Kingfisher flight IT 300 landed just 10 minutes before its fuel tank ran dry. Jet Airways 9W 2357 from Chennai made it onto the runway with fuel for just 13 minutes of flying time. Both Jet planes were Boeing 737s and carried 192 and 174 people each.

The Kingfisher plane was an Airbus 330 and had 158 people on board. Wednesday saw 11 flights diverted to Jaipur, Chandigarh and Lucknow, even as 20 others were forced to circle Delhi airport for an hour starting 9am. The airport was closed because of President Pratibha Patil's flight to China and Turkmenistan president Gurbanguly Berdimunha-medov's flight to Agra.


The tension built up for planes queuing to land at Jaipur as challenging weather - gusts of wind and a duststorm - worsened conditions already difficult because of the absence of approach radar to monitor flight movement.


Planes are supposed to carry enough fuel to fly to a nearby airport in case of an emergency but the uncertainty over the VIP planes' take-off had them circling in the air till they got to Jaipur with little fuel left. The pilots have filed 'flight safety reports' detailing the emergency situation to the Director General of Civil Aviation (DGCA).


VIP movement nearly caused an aviation disaster when three planes, with more than 450 passengers, nearly ran out of fuel when they were diverted from Delhi to Jaipur airport. The pilots of Jetlite flight JLL 108, Kingfisher flight IT 300 and Jet Airways 9W 2357 were caught unawares as there was no Notam (notice to airmen) about the closure of airspace until they reached Delhi.


Airports Authority of India authorities said the practice of issuing Notam during VIP movements has been stopped due to security reasons and Wednesday's flap was unforeseen. "Usually there is only a three-minute shutdown of airspace during VIP movement. But on Wednesday, the Turkmenistan president's flight got delayed because of bad weather in Agra, resulting in diversions and go-arounds," PK Mishra, AAI general manager, air traffic maintenance, told TOI.


The three flights were using up the final reserve fuel when they declared emergency. "The Kingfisher flight which first declared fuel emergency was allowed to land. The Jet Airlines flight, which had only 10 minutes of fuel left, declared emergency next, but it gave way to a Jetlite flight which radioed an emergency declaration," said a source.

Three days after the Mangalore air crash, three aircraft diverted from Delhi airport because of VIP movement had a brush with danger as they almost ran out of fuel above Jaipur airport. "

This is a complete picture of India's current civil aviation scenario.
Is it necessary to say something else?
F...ing idiots!:mad:
Playing with people's lifes on a so irresponsible manner, only few days after the worst national crash! It's a joke.

This is strange.How did ATC know what the copilot was telling the Captain.

Mangalore crash: Captain ignored co-pilot's plea to abort landing - Mangalore - City - The Times of India

King for starters let me tell you this.I am not one who has much respect for the so call "aviation correspondents" that we have running around.Whatever I have mentioned about the Patna crash are facts and suffice it to say that my facts are well informed.Capt.Sohan Pal and Capt.Rajeev Bagga were friends and Capt.Rajeev Bagga had completed his command training but was yet to be released on the line.While departing Calcutta , Capt.Sohan Pal had offered the left seat to Capt.Bagga and thus seats were interchanged.The analysis of the CVR and evidence from the crash site prove it.When you look at the technical part of things , some of the B 737 - 200 / 300s had a problem with the PCU that controlled the rudder of the aircraft.This problem was affecting only certain aircraft that were manufactured during a certain period and if my memory serves me right it was between the mid 1980s to the early 1990s.When this problem was discovered Boeing had ordered a modification of all B 737 aircraft irrespective of their MSN with a modification called the RPR.It was implemented worldwide and since then there has not been a B 737 accident attributed to the faulty PCU of the rudder.Now I am not 100% sure if the RPR modification was implemented in the ill fated aircraft invovled in the Patna crash but I do know that it was confirmed that the rudder system was working perfectly at the time of the crash as the rudder reacted correctly to the pilots inputs as it was going down.Now in the final report that the DGCA published , they did not say with certainty that the seats were inter changed which I think was due to lack of 100% evidence and also maybe due to the legal aspect of things as well.But for all you expert critics out there who damn the DGCA , let me tell you this.In all the accident reports that have been published by the DGCA , they have been 100% accurate and fair.They have never shifted the blame to the manufacturer or anyone else but have zeroed in on the exact cause of the accident.A good example of this is the A 320 crash in Bangalore.Although there was a lot of political pressure , it was attributed to pilot error.If you compare this with what happens elsewhere you would appreciate this fact.A good example of this is the Silk Air MI 185 disaster for which there is an active thread running.It was very clear that it was pilot suicide.But the inconclusice report of the Indonesian authorities which was largely due to political pressure opened the door for a lawyer in the US to go in for the kill.In the end it was blamed on the aircraft for the faulty rudder and as a result the people got more compensation and the lawyer made his big buck.Now why do I say all this , it is because it is important to have accurate findings of an accident or incident so that it does not happen again and that innocents are killed.Fathers , mothers , children were killed in Mangalore and lives scarred forever and here we have the media and everyone else trying to blame the expat pilot.Now if you go back to my previous remark of what Top Tup and Full Throttle had to say about the problems in AI , look at these 2 points closely , the work culture and the selection of foreign air crew.Many of the best airline companies in the world hire expat pilots and these airlines have excellent safety records.What is important is that they get quality aircrew through a proper selection procedure and also the backgrounds are verified.But you must know that they are also paid top dollar.You must remember that in these airlines Indians are also considered expats.So open you're eyes your Highness , look down on your subjects and get a grip on reality rather than sit on a wing and let the airflow cool your ....:ok:

Errr.... Capt. A.S. Bagga -> Arvind Singh Bagga.... was on the 412... His wife's an actress by the way.

Yes that is what I meant to say..:ok:

Two More Months
 

Mangalore Air Crash : Final Report After Two Months

"Right of Aircraft Manufacturer to Testify": Are they blaming the machine now?

Dude this is the internet, you can even put up a 1 million bet....