India - beware of the medium term...
 

Recently I had the pleasure of travelling SIN-BOM with Jet Airways. Having identified myself as QF crew, I was fortunate to receive visits in turn by both operating captains (a check captain was in the RHS due to FO shortages). Some interesting points to note:

1. At present there are around 6000 Indian student pilots at various institutions around the globe.
2. Indian operators will happily employ bare CPL holders so long as they have MECIR. Not even ATP subjects are prerequisites until the time comes for a command upgrade.
3. Command upgrades become available at 1000 hours time on type. As such individuals with a total time of 1200 hours are routinely becoming eligible for, and achieving, commands.
4. When the time comes that local pilots are sufficient to fill existing vacancies. expat pilots will be terminated...overnight. There is a precedent for this. In the early 90's there were many ex dispute guys crewing for startups in a newly de-regulated industry. They were terminated the day local labour sufficient to meet demand became available.

If you don't believe the lengths to which Indian pride extends, then simply you do not understand the extent to which Ghandian philosophy permeates through modern Indian. After 400 years of being resource raped by the British, the enduring symbol of independent India is the spinning wheel around which the national flag is based. What does this mean? It means the British harvested Indian cloth and transported it to England, manufactured it in Lancashire, and then sold it back at percentage profits of many thousands. Hence the Ghandi philosophical mantra - we will not depend upon anyone. We will spin our own cloth. If that doesn't convince you of India's determination to avoid foreign assistance at all costs, consider the governments response to post tsunami offers of aid: er, thanks, but no thanks. We can deal with it…

What does this mean today? Philosophically not much has changed since Ghandi. The Indians will use foreign resources only to the extent that they are a requirement to get the job done. As a pilot you will be tolerated for as long as your skills are deemed useful and you will be paid whatever it takes. However, you will never achieve long term employment. The existence of a young, highly educated population that undertakes schooling in an English medium will guarantee there will be no shortage of nationalist skills gathering to push you out of your job in the medium term.

If you go to India ensure you squeeze every last penny out of your employer. You may have a great time or you may end up hating it. Its that kind of place. But don't expect it to provide you with any sort of job security going forwards.

How do I know all this?

I am Indian.

FT.

very well written...nice research...BTW did the jet airways pilots offer you a smoke in the flt deck ...used to be std practice for a flt deck invite...

Thanks, what you have discovered is that expatriates are used only if they are useful until Nationals are able to take over.... It is not only India, it is true all over the world.

If your Indian then start acting like one

Somewhat Lost
 

ERR........I am at a loss as to what point you are trying to make Sir.......What seems to getting in the way of reality is the "QR" bit.Dont see the point of mentioning it......You appear to be a NR Indian content with displaying to the resident Indian Pilots the obvious i.e.. "My Rickshaw is bigger / faster than yours and I have more Cellphones than you"--number one; and secondly your judgement as to the intelligence levels of expat pilots and any assumptions of their longevity in current employment is merely a short term exposure to the Indian penchant for "shall we say the untruth".
Reality is that any Expat Pilot will do 12 mths in India, even in the 5 star Hotels ,and by God aint we all sick of Hotels but very few will remain longer as your flag carrier and others are finding out.....The most difficult thing to stomach in India is the "rolling wheel of lies" epitomised in your flag, as you graphically point out.
But "Babu", I have been here as long as any expat, have seen it all, and like every expat first stop after dumping the Nav Bag is the Kingfisher, followed by climbto350/flightinternational jobs on the Net.
Have contemplated going back to Aussie....but I would miss the Mayhem.
"excuse me but time for a Kingfisher".

very well written...nice research...BTW did the jet airways pilots offer you a smoke in the flt deck ...used to be std practice for a flt deck invite...

well, dont judge an airline by these few pilots who light up. i am sure (leftwing) some guys in your airline (which is having 777 problems right now?) light up too !


Flying Tiger, there is nothing much you can do about what is going on in your former (or current?) homeland, unless you want to give up ur QF lifesytle and head back up there. and 1200 TT for command, which airline is this ?

What's brought all this on??

A wonderful, but pointless rant. Seems to me that most pilots in India, expats inc, seem to have a handle on reality & their tenure regarding contracts.

In a nutshell this is old news. BTW as an Indian why are you so worried about the state of expats flying in India?

HPC

fying tiger, your not discovering anything new mate! geez!
in any country of the planet, china, india, chile, panama, thailand, italy, england, you name it...............we the expat pilot's are an "Undiserable Need", some coworkers can treat you well, just because of your seating position in the flight deck, other wont even look at you no matter what.
of course they would love to get ride of you and me, they pay us more than their locals, also where taking the seat of a posible or potential f/o to be in that seat of command, if thats the case, if not your taking away the dream of guys in any aviation school by not finding a job in their homeland cause its already filled by us, and is not our fault, its simply how things are, unfare for some and oportunity to others
and to be honest with you, India is the place that receives foreigners more nicelly than any other i've been to, they do socialize with you, not just when your on duty with them, theyre very open minded they enjoy the time with us, and back....................try that in china!

c'ya

As jumpdrive says, contract pilots have zero job security, no matter what country they are working in. Do you think CX (Hong Kong) or EK (Dubai) would be any different in the longer term. Okay, they have a large percentage of expat pilots and they could not be replaced overnight, but longer term all airlines will seek the cheapest and simplest option to crew their aircraft.

Remember that it is ultimately bean-counters who will determine recruitment policy; at present they tolerate expats (and the associated costs) because there is no cheap alternative readily available. This won't last forever.......

so then strike while the iron is hot, eh? :cool:

Hmmm....somewhat surprised to learn that "cloth" grows on trees and is "harvested". I always thought it was cotton that was harvested, ginned and then spun into yarn, the latter subsequently woven into fabric. (Unless. of course, India - quite without external help - has invented a shortcut to eliminate this otherwise standard process).:ugh:

No surprise there really, but honestly, from what I've heard, I'd rather be an expat in India than in many other countries and I'm not saying that just because I'm Indian but because of the way I see foreigners treated in India.

true try to find that elsewhere

whatever you are do not joint Air Sahara, this is the worst airline in India, management never respect the contract, they will change any time they want to all point, vik888 the way I see foreigners treated in India don't believe your eyes talk to them

Ah..... The orator of PPRUNE retuns to us once again!!

About expatriate role
 

I have been an expatriate since now 10 years after a long career in a European National Carrier, and I enjoy very much this situation of expat and more I find it important.
1) Expatriates are certainly considered as mercenaries by Employers and National Authorities, no doubt about that and do not expect you are initially a welcome long term employee if some Nationals can fill in your position. You are just a Joker.
2) However, - depending on our behavior-, we can gain some respect and due to our proficiency, be individually set aside of the expatriate flock. It is not the general rule, but it can happen.
3) Nationalisms are stronger in this part of the world (Asia) than in some western countries. Nationalisms are feed by ignorance and fear of others,and also bad behaviors of some foreigners: as expatriate you have the opportunity to meet people from other cultures, religions, colour of skin, If you are curious, you will try to understand, on the other hand, you will meet people curious about you. This exchange is fruitful because, at the end, we are discovering that the others are human being with the same aims than you, they want to live peacefully, to feed their family exactly like you...It is true worlwide.
4) Poor people have not been able to get the education you have received, so you have the responsability to be more mature, to avoid to offend them in their believes and their day-to-day way of living. To be accepted amidst a foreign communauty is blessing, and more the cultural difference is important more it is rewarding. On a very long term, it will help to reduce strength of nationalisms and it will help to base the relationship between human more on proficiencies than on non-relevant-to-efficiency-job criteria like nationality.
I am useful in my expatriate life, more than if I was retiring in my village. I am not naive about the reasons why they initially give me a job in their country: it is to me to be accepted to the point they consider I am one of their fellow countrymen...
Specifically about India... I have now several very good indian friends in spite our cultural differences and opinions. (I know they can be tricky, that they are often arguing over reasonable levels, but I have overpassed those small things).
The best to all of you,

So as a Caucasian F/O with Air India what would I expect?

Would I find local Captains baring a grudge?

Should I expect to keep my bags packed?

Or would it be best to only take a command position?

At the end of the day, I hope it isn't personal, just business!!!

1. No, everyone's in it for the cash. If you drink you should be fine.
2. Not needed

a-holes are every where be it expats ot locals...

in AI you will find few things slow and old fasioned...but over all an ok place to work..keep your nose clean..... want to break the ice buy your capt the first drink .... Scotch n soda .... !:ok:

It's just a wind up . . . .
 

With 1200TT in the left seat of a 737/A320 Jet...? ...what are you smoking?

Would be nice to hear from an expat f/o, if there is one there at the moment. If there is not, it will be soon-for sure. Just saw in an other thread that the rules for expat F/O emerged from Indian DGCA. About half a planet fits the profile. I mean:ugh: flying planet. Good luck to everybody and let's hope there will be shortages of pilots all arround, just like in India. Rises the value a little bit, ha?

You need to have a lot of money to be comfortable in India.
You also need endless patience and tolerance.
I went for a few weeks and was worn down by the time I left.
I can only imagine what spending a year or two would be like for a foreigner.
Don't get me wrong, there was lots to see and do but I was constantly seen as a target for a rip-off.

There are some nice ppruners there though - Bombay Duck for one, who showed me around his city for two days and made me feel very welcome.

So... what's the latest re FO opportunities in India? The agencies seem to have gone very quiet on this front; admittedly, of my 3000+ hrs only 100 or so are multicrew on the ATR but are there any expat opportunities in India?

The 'medium term' isn't too much of an issue... a 6 month contract would be fine!

The news from my agency is that the F/O requirement is being put on the backburner and then will be reviewed.

So no holding your breaths, because a dead Ppruner is no good to anyone!

and its GANDHI for chrissake and nobody gets command at 1200 TT but maybe 1500TT!!

wrong Info!
 

Flying Tiger seems to be anything but one! Facts are screwed up! DGCA does not permit anyone to fly an aircraft weighing more than 5700kgs AUW without an ATP.Minimum requirement for ATP in India is 1500 Hrs.your 1000 Hrs on type are worth it only if you have an ATP.secondly,know the facts about your country beforee tom-toming yourself as Mr.Know-All! :=

NO TO TSUNAMI AID (flying tiger)
 

LYING Tiger should keep up with the NEWS.
Yes India refused Manpower Aid (dont want transparency)....but held their hands out for the Money...their share of the world Bank initial Tsunami relief of US$528.5 million...and that was the tip of the Iceberg of world aid.
Little to show for it today.

US Age 65 will change things
 

Since age 65 became U.S. law a few days ago, conforming with ICAO, it would be safe to assume that the pool of current/qualified U.S. pilots now employed, would effectively shrink to zero regarding any expat flying...they will stay at their respective airline in the U.S...even those past sixty (like me) are now reemployable so long as we don't claim any past seniority rights. My point is that the pool of available expat pilots (particularly wide-body capt's) just dried-up, which should increase the bargaining position of those still in the expat game; contract renewals should become very interesting. Current AI 777 Capt class are virtually all over-60 U.S. former 777 Capt's. None would be there, if not for former age 60 limit.

ALPA
 

I have no personal knowledge here but I assume that ALPA contracts require an age 60 retirement so it may still be a few years until the age 65 rule fully takes affect.

The new law addresses that specifically; airlines are required to make the change with the pilot representative entity, to include any benefit adjustments or ramifications. Many U.S. carriers dumped their entire pension obligation on the government in bankruptcy court, so many alpa contracts have no specific retirement language relative to age. The law is effective on 13DEC07 and implementation is mandated at 30 days. I agree with you that it is, probably, a great time to be a lawyer.

last I checked the requirement was 1500 hrs tt on type for initial command on 737/320.(~june)