Japan's governement is a democracy that reflects the will of the people.

Obviously the majority of the people there prefer to retain text books that "Save Face".

:O

Capt Snooze:

I don't dispute anything you have said regarding the provenance of the Mariana islands. My encyclopaedia Britannica lists it just as you say. However there is no disputing the fact that Japan had control of those islands before World War II and now they don't. What I am offering is a comparison between the Nipponese attitude to the now USA controlled Marianas and their attitude to the Russian Southern Kuriles, the Chinese Diaoyus and the Korean Dokdos. If you can give me a clear explanation of why the difference in atttude then I'd be only too pleased to listen to you.

NZLeardriver:

There is no research necessary to understand that the Southern Kurile islands are an externsion of the Kamchatka peninsula which in turn is part of the Russian mainland. The Chinese island of Diaoyus is a million miles from mainland Japan and right on Taiwan's (China's) doorstep. Why don't you take a look at a map or an atlas. Also perhaps you would like to think about the known fact that by claiming far flung islands Japan has managed to increase its land maritime holdings by 12 times. In other words they control 12 times as much sea area as they have land. Today's announcement by Japan that the Government is granting companies permits to prospect for oil and gas in an area claimed by China caused the chairman of the China Federation for Defending the Diaoly islands to say, quote: "more evidence of Japan's invasion of Chinese territory and natural resources. I would consider bombing their drilling platforms". unquote.(From South China Morning Post.)
Irrespective of what you claim about the economies of Nippons involvement in Asian affairs it is crystal clear that it's all aimed at Nipponese betterment and considering all we have discussed here I don't see why they should be rewarded with a seat on the UN Security Council.

The answer to your twice asked question "have you lived in Japan" is no. However I have been there on what seems like a hundred thousand times!!!

Prince of Dzun

That's a LOT of hours you've logged, PoD :p

Interesting debate, fellas.
IF a trade embargo were introduced by China, it might prove very costly for Japan, which is reliant on the cheap Chinese labour costs to provide everyday household products, including food items (fresh, frozen, and canned), and even the reed used to make tatami mats, plus car and watch parts (are you aware that most Seiko and Citizen watches are now assembled in China?....and the copy Rolexes being flogged off here :eek: )
Tell me all about the banking here, NZLeardriver :\ I lost my cash card a couple of weeks ago, and had to make an over the counter withdrawal, using my bank book - 45 minutes after lodging the application, and several "interviews" later, I finally got the funds, which was only a couple of hundred bucks....chickenfeed here...anyway!
The same rules apply here - as a foreigner - as anywhere else in Asia.
Rule #1 being, "If you are going to be dealing with ANY form of "officialdom" ALWAYS carry your passport." (It's almost that way in Australia and New Zealand now, as well!)

Kaptain M:

Apa khabar kawan: Yes my friend a lot of hours and a lot of shore passes too. Each one of those passes carried the threat of having to write an apology should I lose it!!! Strange is it not that loss of that simply piece of paper required not only an acknowledgement in writing but an apology as well. This from a nation that committed unspeakable atrocities and yet can't say the word sorry even though they expect others to say it. Sure as hell takes some understanding. Jumpa lagi

Prince of Dzun

P.S. International media is tonight reporting big anti Japanese demonstrations in ten major Chinese cities. Also reporting the 22 million electonic objections previously mentioned now in excess of 30 million.

P of D, your view of Asia seems to be utterly lopsided with regards to Japan. Far more recently than WWII there have been some abysmal genocides mostly commited by Governments against their own but there are some Tibetans who probably deserve an apology in similar measure to that demanded from the Japanese - they are still and probably always will be subjugated to the Chinese communist dictatorship.
And the Great Leap Forward - what a party that was!?!?! Untold millions starved and murdered but hidden behind a closed China of the 1960's. Camodia and the 6 million that perished from Year Zero. Indonesia eliminated the membership of the PKI in the mid 60's (~1/2 million). The US's ham-fisted war in Vietnam (2 million). Then today, North Korea turning it's entire country into a sick horror film.

Here's a link to a CNN article on the textbook that is causing all this trouble. The teacher's union is against the textbook and so is most of the Japanese public opinion polls.

Nevertheless, the Japanese government should remove the textbook.

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/as....ap/index.html

Lately, I feel the Japanese government is adding fuel to the fire with the approval of exploratory natural gas drilling near the disputed islands.

Snowball keeps getting bigger...

yes....PoD, unlike the simple malay language/culture that you have made several references to, japan and its culture does take SOME understanding...

so, instead of the continual japan bashing and half hidden insults toward the japanese....make an effort to understand...or at least listen to those on this forum who have made the effort.....

japan and its government are not perfect, far from it, but equidistant from perfection would be the authoritarian chinese government...do you really think they include a truthful account of the cultural revolution and tiannamen in their school textbooks?...and as NZlear pointed out, their forays into korea/tibet/vietnam/india were somewhat aggressive....and they make no hiding of the fact they will take taiwan by force.....

i have spent considerable time in china and japan and i imagine i am not alone in my preference for the clean, polite and honest japanese over the chinese, who often seem to lack the most basic of manners, and will walk on any and everyone for the sake of money...

so, PoD, there are 30 million objections to the book.....if we assume they are all from within china.....what do the other 98% of mainland chinese think?......and stereolab has just mentioned, most of the japanese dont agree with it and i hear it is for distribution to just 2% of schools....hardly worth the diplomatic incedent it has turned into....

stereolab/nz lear....you asked where PoD, with a hatred for all things japanese hails from...he speaks a smattering of malay/quotes chinese sayings and says he's from 114E....a brunien chinese?....

Well look at this. I turn my back fro a short while and the discussion diversifies from Stereolab being married to a japanese girl and whether Jap is an acceptable term in Japan, to rantings about anti Japanese rallies, ownership of islands, assembly of watches, withdrawal of money from a bank without a cash card, and the BIG one; non recognition of their own role in WW2 and the atrocities committed etc. Nanking massacre next, or has it already been covered? I haven't read all posts.

I can identify with Kaptin M as I've had a similar problem trying to get MY money from the bank. This is the [place where ATMs keep the same hours as the banks, so one might ask why have ATM's?

I'm so proud of you guys and your knowledge of things Japanese.

Please keep it up I need more reasons to dislike the place.

Bwahahahaha, that`s EXACTLY what they WANT you to think, but it`s far from the truth.

Another sucker, fooled by the "Geisha" of Japan.
Beware the "Geisha" (fyi, they are ALL "geisha", wearing several faces) - obviously remote has seen ONLY the outer make-up.

"the clean, polite and honest japanese " - I`m still laughing that you have fallen for the oh so polite, very honorable, subservient Nipponese.
From the Prince`s observations as a regular entrant to Nippon, I must say he HAS made the effort to do deeper research top see what lies underneath the "Sumimasen(s), arigatoo(s)", and "Otsakaresamade****a(s)"!

Thanks for leaving that old pair of shoes on my doorstep, sir!

Jap Jok, Foreign Worker,

I have a great idea, why don't you join the protesters over in Beijing and see how the Chinese treat foreigners? You think your treated poorly here in Japan?...the "Two faced Geisha" can't even come close to dealing with the Dragon.

Prince, your anti-Japan rhetoric is extremely one-sided. Your posts only seem to contain information that will forward your cause, rather than telling the full story.


Here is a recent post of yours,

And yet it is perfectly acceptable for you to bad mouth and use derogatory terminology for the Japanese? Given your attitude, I doubt very much that you went to Japan for your own pleasure. I am assuming it was in your work you went there? Why did you go to Japan so many times if you hate it so much? Is any of your hatred actually based on experience? Or is it a result of a selective education in your country, where hatred of Japan is taught at a young age?

Yes, I have been looking at some maps. I can see that Hawaii is far from the USA, the Chatams are far from New Zealand, East Malaysia is much closer to Indonesia that West Malaysia. Shall I go on?
Yes, most of the Kuril Islands seem to naturally belong to the Kamchatka Penisular. But not the ones claimed by Japan. They are naturally part of Hokkaido. They can be seen from Hokkaido. What map are you looking at where this is not obvious?

http://www.iir.ubc.ca/cancaps/images/Image5.gif

Can you really tell me that these islands are naturally Russian? Do you also believe that Hokkaido should be claimed as part of Russia?

Also by your arguement, the Senkakus are naturally part of the Okinawa Island chain, therefore part of Japan. While China has only tried to claim these in recent times (since the chance of oil and gas was discovered) and most of the world views their claim as crap, you still bring it up.

I did not know that Japan controls 12 times more sea than land. I cannot find much information about this online, can you point me in the correct direction? In any case I think that you will find that most island nations are like that. Singapore has a huge ratio. New Zealand will too. Other countries such as the US and China have such huge land boundaries that any ratio like this is meaningless. New Zealand (about the same land area as the state of Colorado) has almost the same amount of coastline as the USA.

Again in your announcement about Japan issueing oil and gas permits, you fail to state anything other than what will help your cause. Were you a reporter in a previous career?
You completely neglected to mention that the Chinese have begun drilling right beside the boundary. The Japanese use the UN approved EEZ to define where the sea boundary is, the Chinese in this instance have decided their own boundary in a manner that is contrary to other boundaries China has. Naturally the oil and gas involved has nothing to do with this, Im sure.

Like I said, I dont believe that Japan having a seat on the Security Council is a reward, but a necessity for the U.N. organization. I doubt it will happen, but the UN will be screwed if the Japanese pull out, or reduce their huge payments.

Japan has apologised for the war. In 1995 there was another very humble apology in China that received absolutlely no media coverage there at all. The Chinese government made absolutely no effort to communicate to the people that one had been made. In fact they still encourage the anti-Japan rhetoric. In the last 25 years Japan has helped China to the tune of 3 trillion yen. Do you think the average Chinese is aware of this?

Finally, please stop refering to the Japanese as Nipponese. As I previously stated, this is not acceptable terminology. It is offensive. Do you continue to use it to be derogatory?

Remote:

Is your tirade aimed at trying to convince me or are you trying to convince yourself? I honestly find it difficult to believe there are still adults around who are as naive as you. Your "clean polite and honest" impressions have nothing whatsoever to do with the issues being discussed here. It would seem you have never heard of the massacres committed in China and the rest of Asia, the forced prostitution of thousands of women, the germ warfare experiments on living people, the medical experiments on living people, the honoring of executed war criminals, Nipponese lies regarding the infamous Marco Poloi bridge incident, the massive bombing of civilians in Chungking, refusal to say sorry and of course the lying textbooks. You need educating and I suggest you start by reading the CNN article put up by Stereolab. It's far from complete but at least it may help you "to understand". Naive in Malay is "bodoh" and in Chinese it is "tian zhen". I don't know the Japanese word.

Slice:
Reading the CNN article would be good for you too.

Prince of Dzun

P.S. NZLeardriver: That's a lot to digest in one sitting so leave it with me and I will be back with you shortly.

Kapitan M: PM enroute.

foreign worker...i'm not fooled at all...i just find certain behaviour distasteful/offensive...

re-read what i posted...

QUOTE

"i imagine i am not alone in my preference for the clean, polite and honest japanese over the chinese, who often seem to lack the most basic of manners"


re-read what you posted...

QUOTE

"Taipei - polluted, smoggy, dirty, congested, smelly."

and when PoD took offence to your post...you wrote...

QUOTE

"My original post stands, and I stand by what I wrote.
You may find it "rude and offensive", but unwarranted it most certainly is not.
Perhaps you would care to point out which part, or parts, you feel are untrue?
I didn't mention the spitting and emptying of nasal fluids on the sidewalks, and even occasionally inside the airport terminals, that all makes up some of the mystique of this "delightful" part of Asia."


you cannot but agree that the japanese (with regard to basic personal hygiene) are clean....as is most of their country.....they are, as a people, honest (even cash found in the street there gets handed in)....and, whether feigned or not, they are polite.....


much of the rest of asia seems to mimick japan...always a few years behind....and many are envious of japan's economic success...
so, in china, government sponsored/approved japan bashing is the way they vent their frustration....and the only excuse each time, is to drag up japan's actions in WW2 (and anything related to it)....not at all nice but, it was 60-70yrs ago and most of the people who had anything to do with what went on then, have long since departed.......
and as has been pointed out here, many asian governments, especially china's, have been guilty of similar or worse more recently...

if you really dont like the place/people...why do stay there?....utopia lies somehwere else for you.....

PoD.....wow, so much negativity...you should try some therapy...

QUOTE...

"Your "clean polite and honest" impressions have nothing whatsoever to do with the issues being discussed here."

well, yes they do.....
Kaptin M started the thread to discuss life in japan and job possibilities for people seeking employment there...YOU highjacked it with your anti-japanese rhetoric ....

remote I must take issue with a number of things you contend. The Japanese are no cleaner than many other races. Their cities are quite clean, but you were talking, I believe, about the people.

Honest....yes, at a personal level. The risks of being rolled or having your pockets picked are remote. But EVERY day the newspapers report embezzlement and fraud perpetrated by business leaders and politicians. They like the big stuff, no doubt.

There's a head of one of the railway companies currently in the courts over embezzling over Y180 billion, that's US$1.7 billion; more than I earn here in a month. His sidekick has already topped himself rather than face the consequences and bring shame on his family. Perhaps he should have thought about that some years ago.

Then there are the cases of mechanics lying about maintenance to get an ontime departure...and signing off snags that weren't repaired....harldy honest I wouldn't have thought. Then, when sprung, saying they "almost" did the check.
Collectively I found them to be amongst the most deceitful people I've ever dealt with and that includes people of third world countries who are struggling to survive and would be happy with a couple of bucks.

And yes, the politeness is no more than a facade.

Arigatogozaima****a!!! I think it means bull$hit

and slice, 6 million murdered by Pol Pot???? Cambodia didn't have 6 million people back in the 70's and doesn't have now. The most extravagant estimates put the toll at 2-3 million...still a terrible situation, but nowehre near 6. The Cambodians are amongst the nicest peo le I have encountered anywhere in the world during a couple of visits there to see Angkor Wat etc.

Too bad really, what started as a very comical, enlightening discussion about Gomi Nazi nannies and the like, has now turned into a pro/anti Japanese slugfest. The venom increases by the post.

I would like to point out that, like the Japanese, the Swiss live in a very small, rigidly controlled, anally clean, no rule breaking, law abiding or else, spy-on-yer-neighbor, everyone is a cop, my **** doesn’t stink, foreigner-distrusting, country.

If it weren’t such a pain in the ass to live there, it would be hilarious.

Japjok I stand corrected (confused number with Holocaust I think) but still a staggering slaughter.


BTW I don't mean to imply that the atrocities commited by Governments should necessarily replect upon the people of that nation in general, something which, at least in the case of the Japanese, P of D does..

jap jok

i believe the thread was started to give an insight to life in japan for those considering a move to work there.....i am not pro or anti japan....but PoD kicked off straight away by telling his friend, kaptin m, that he would be better received in china.....

i merely said that i found the japanese to be clean, honest and polite...(compared with my experience in china).....

and you agree, the japanese are clean....and their cities....

and that at a personal level, they are honest....most japanese and foreigners feel relatively safe from petty crime.....most people are aware that all of asia (and many other parts of the world) is corrupt at corporate/govt level...

about signing for work that wasnt "quite completed" in order to meet a deadline.....i think that comes from pressure to meet the demands from above, rather than an intent to deceive.....this happens all over the world....but in japan, it would be a huge loss of face to admit that the work had not been completed on time....so, rather than fall on a sword now, pretend it has and hope no-one notices....if the worst comes to the worst, fall on the sword later....right or wrong in your eyes, its their culure....

and the facade of politeness...you dont have to be there long to realize it's a facade......but, far more preferable than outright rudeness....

japan was closed off to outsiders for so long... they are a group that looks after its own, and many are still suspicious of outsiders....not aggressively so, but because of a deeply ingrained culture, you cannot be totally accepeted.....this does not mean you are not welcome...


and PoD....re the apology thing..

do you really think it would make a difference?...one modern day leader says "OK, we are sorry"....all the hurt would go away?....

i too saw the anger/hatred in the eyes of the chinese demonstrators whilst attempting to trash anything japanese.....the germans must have looked similar on kristallnacht....
some of this emotion is envy at the comparitive success of others...the whipping up of nationalist sentiment by authorities is not a good thing.....it just passes the hatred down to the next generation...

if this is just about financial compensation.....japan paid reparations after the war, and has invested billions in the economies of asia since....and those responsible for the atrocities were dealt with.....which is more than has been done to many others since (serb leaders were responsible for the mass muder/rape of bosnian citizens just 10yrs ago...and wander freely in serbia today)...

i believe most older japanese feel a certain shame associated with their actions as a nation in the first half of the 20th century.....ramming it home to junior high school students today does what?....make 12yr olds feel guilty?....why should they?....

it might create an awareness, but it's also likely to antagonize the youth and you may end up with something like the neo-nazis in germany, who openly target anyone who "looks" foreign....they have now grown to the extent that now they have representation in the reichstag...


it takes time to adjust to life there....but i believe one should make the attempt as life will be more enjoyable.....and if it doesn't suit you , dont whine, leave...

NZLeardriver:

My reference to Japan's maritime control being 12 times its land mass was taken directly from "Japan Today"s' forum that discusses (like pprune) day to day issues in Japan. The claim was voiced by Yo'chi Funabashi foreign affairs columnist for Asahi Shimbun and you will find it on page 2 of 16 March 2005.
Regarding the "apology" thing I think you will find that Japan has not officially apologised to the Peoples Republic of China for War World II massacres. A few visiting Japanese politicians mumbling "regret" is not an apology and certainly is not acceptable in any sense of the word.

President Vladimir Putin will settle the southern Kuriles affair if and when he visits Japan. The Nipponese government has no say in the matter and I'm prepared to bet you a bottle of best saki that the islands stay with Russia.

Remote:
Not easy to answer what Jap Jok presented. I found myself almost feeling sorry for you.

Prince of Dzun

The thread title is "Japanarama", and as I see it, the discussion has involved subject(s) which are topical, and directly relevant to life in Japan - though I doubt they get too much airing at the local level (refer back to JapJok's analogy of the ant nest).
There is certainly a shimaguni konjo (island-nation) mentality - meaning that many Jaoanese are almost oblivious to anything other than that which occurs in Japan. But wrt domestic matters, they are INTIMATELY aware of who did what, where, and when!

So back to the more mundane, day-to-day life here.
Although in my 6th year here, I'm still experiencing "things" that I thought I had already put behind me, or in the case of a couple of nights prior, a new experience.
I was sitting in a sushi/sashimi restaurant (that had a few other side dishes as well), enjoying a salad, and one of those mammoth sized (cooked) tuna ribs, when two of the crew from another flight came in and sat next to me.
It's usual in Japan, when eating with other people, to order a few different dishes, and to share - so these guys had 3 or 4 on the go, when a schnapper sashimi was served up.
The schnapper (a large bream) was lying at about a 45 degree angle on a plastic boat, and covered in seaweed, and thin slices of its flesh - its head at the bow of the boat, the filleted skeleton lying alng the length, and its tail at the stern.
A small bowl of soy with wasabe mixed in was placed just below its jaw, and into this the diner would dip the pieces of sashimi (The raw flesh).

"Look at this", the guy sitting next to me said, as he popped a piece of sashimi into his mouth with the chopsticks in one hand, and pointing at the fish on the boat.
The mouth of the fish was opening and closing, as if gasping for air, as its tail flicked from side to side.
It was still ALIVE!!

As they continued to eat, we watched the fish for the next several minutes, before it went into what can only be described as its final "death throws" - violent, rapid shaking of its head and tail, that lasted for a couple of minutes.

I don't mind sashimi, but didn't feel like any that night, after seeing that.

Another encounter with the banks - left 'til next time.

I think the key for the people looking at coming here is if the accommodation is included or not.

If not, be prepared for a shock. The contracts will all have a response time included, so you are likely to need to live in an expensive area. Expect to pay about 100,000 yen per month for a shoebox. That would be a minimum. The older it is, the more you will have to pay for gas and power.
I would say that exclusive of housing and utilities, a single guy would need at least 150,000 to live ok. To have a good life, try 250,000-300,000 upwards.
A family would need much more.

Cars are cheap to buy here, often they are free. However you will have to rent a carpark, about 10,000 per month. Gas is about 160 a litre. Highways can cost a couple of thousand yen, more or less.
Dont know about rego etc.

Internet is fast. You can get internet, phone and cable tv for about 11,000 a month in most areas.

Beer at the supermarket goes for about 300 yen a can, or a bit less. In a bar you will pay 500 upwards for a glass. Spirits in Sth Osaka are quite well priced, rum and vodka etc cheaper than in the US. However in a bar you will still pay thru the nose.
Dinner and drinks will easily run to 10,000 per person. Just a quick dinner and beer maybe only 1-2 thousand.

Public transport is incredibly expensive.

Consumer electronics are ok priced. I would bring your own laptop as they are pretty expensive here.


Anything else, let me know and I can add it to the list.