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All Korean Air and Asiana Airlines Pilots

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All Korean Air and Asiana Airlines Pilots

Old 15th Jun 2020, 04:19
  #1 (permalink)  
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All Korean Air and Asiana Airlines Pilots

To all who are may be interested.

As you know, Asiana Airline and Korean Airlines has placed the majority of the Expat pilots on unpaid leave due to the events of the current pandemic. While we all understand the difficult times the airlines are experiencing, this does not justify the blatant disregards to fulfilling their contract duties under Korean Labor Law. 4 Months ago, I have been forced to take unpaid leave, however nowhere in my employment contract states this is allowed. I have not received a salary legally owed to me since the forced unpaid leave. As of this writing, I just received notice that Asiana has sent my agency notice that my contract has been terminated with " 2-months notification” as provided in my contract.

I, just like you, am angry at the way we have been treated. When they needed us, we gave them full support without hesitation, but now when we need them, they want to turn the backs on us and throw away like trash. I don't know about you, but this is not acceptable!!!!

I would like be seek a reputable law firm astute in Korean law to seek compensation, but I cannot personally or financially do this alone. I need everyone who has been affected by this to join with me to fight what we are legally owe to us. If you want to join me, you may contact me.
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Old 18th Jun 2020, 10:29
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Originally Posted by av8tordude View Post
To all who are may be interested.

As you know, Asiana Airline and Korean Airlines has placed the majority of the Expat pilots on unpaid leave due to the events of the current pandemic. While we all understand the difficult times the airlines are experiencing, this does not justify the blatant disregards to fulfilling their contract duties under Korean Labor Law. 4 Months ago, I have been forced to take unpaid leave, however nowhere in my employment contract states this is allowed. I have not received a salary legally owed to me since the forced unpaid leave. As of this writing, I just received notice that Asiana has sent my agency notice that my contract has been terminated with " 2-months notification” as provided in my contract.

I, just like you, am angry at the way we have been treated. When they needed us, we gave them full support without hesitation, but now when we need them, they want to turn the backs on us and throw away like trash. I don't know about you, but this is not acceptable!!!!

I would like be seek a reputable law firm astute in Korean law to seek compensation, but I cannot personally or financially do this alone. I need everyone who has been affected by this to join with me to fight what we are legally owe to us. If you want to join me, you may contact me.

You have to read the fine print. It’s called a force Majeure Clause. A "force majeure" clause (French for "superior force") is a contract provision that relieves the parties from performing their contractual obligations when certain circumstances beyond their control arise, making performance inadvisable, commercially impracticable, illegal, or impossible. In the absence of a force majeure clause, parties to a contract are left to the mercy of the narrow common law contract doctrines of "impracticability" and "frustration of purpose," which rarely result in excuse of performance. https://www.venable.com/insights/pub...ajeure-clauses
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Old 18th Jun 2020, 19:28
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Deluded at best!! Just sit at home and take it like the rest of the world. Your expat rights mean zero in force majeure
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Old 18th Jun 2020, 20:06
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Originally Posted by WYOMINGPILOT View Post
You have to read the fine print. It’s called a force Majeure Clause. A "force majeure" clause (French for "superior force") is a contract provision that relieves the parties from performing their contractual obligations when certain circumstances beyond their control arise, making performance inadvisable, commercially impracticable, illegal, or impossible. In the absence of a force majeure clause, parties to a contract are left to the mercy of the narrow common law contract doctrines of "impracticability" and "frustration of purpose," which rarely result in excuse of performance. https://www.venable.com/insights/pub...ajeure-clauses
Not entirely true wyoming.
actually I believe that korean air legal advisors should not be so easy going with the “force majeure “clause.
please read entirely and carefully the following explanation by a legal firm...
https://www.pinsentmasons.com/out-la...majeure-clause
a simple legal litigation will definitely see korean air succumbed due to the continued production of air transportation services and their high revenue operations.
what is emerging here is a clear and premeditated non contractual adherence...
FOI
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Old 19th Jun 2020, 01:13
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Originally Posted by WYOMINGPILOT View Post
You have to read the fine print. It’s called a force Majeure Clause. A "force majeure" clause (French for "superior force") is a contract provision that relieves the parties from performing their contractual obligations when certain circumstances beyond their control arise, making performance inadvisable, commercially impracticable, illegal, or impossible. In the absence of a force majeure clause, parties to a contract are left to the mercy of the narrow common law contract doctrines of "impracticability" and "frustration of purpose," which rarely result in excuse of performance. https://www.venable.com/insights/pub...ajeure-clauses
Thanks for your info Captain but Asiana Airlines did not stop operations.
Locals have 15/15 or 10/20 roster for half wages.
Almost all expats got a contract termination letter from agencies and unpaid leave prolongation letter from company(
So no roster, no money and expired medical, sim and line check( Brilliant!

Actually it does not looks like force majeuere&

This is rasism(



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Old 19th Jun 2020, 03:37
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Why is it racism ?
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Old 19th Jun 2020, 03:49
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Let me get this straight, pilots in EU, Australia and New Zealand are getting furloughed and US pilots are embracing to be furloughed on Oct 1st and contract expats in Korea who are not on local seniority list are complaining about getting their contracts terminated whilst EastarJet went belly up, Asiana deal about to fall through, Air Seoul expected to be liquidated, T'way and JejuAir not big enough to receive government financial assistance?

You guys are delusional and how is that racism?
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Old 19th Jun 2020, 05:23
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Originally Posted by lee_apromise View Post
Let me get this straight, pilots in EU, Australia and New Zealand are getting furloughed and US pilots are embracing to be furloughed on Oct 1st and contract expats in Korea who are not on local seniority list are complaining about getting their contracts terminated whilst EastarJet went belly up, Asiana deal about to fall through, Air Seoul expected to be liquidated, T'way and JejuAir not big enough to receive government financial assistance?

You guys are delusional and how is that racism?
My be because Asiana Airlines dismiss pilots on nationality but not on senioriny ?
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Old 19th Jun 2020, 05:34
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Firstly, I don't think racism is a term that fits the narrative of what is unfolding. I understand the reasoning behind having our contract having been terminated. In fact, just the same as many thousands of pilots COVID19. It is extremely unfortunate. I suppose this is a risk of being a contractor therefore we are prepared for an eventually like this.

However, where an issue appears is with the agreement between the Airline (Asiana Airlines) and the contractor (pilot) through an aviation agency in which states the following:

1. Termination of contract requires Two months’ notice. In line with this, severance pay of Two months is required. The airline is currently falling short and due to financial difficulties is unable to pay.

2. As we shall we required to look for a new job in the future, most if not all are out of currency. As part of the contact states the pilot is required to gain and maintaining a valid Korean Licence / validation and maintaining the required standard qualification in accordance with Asiana’s practices. Korean locals were able to maintain currency (at least on the A/C type I operate). Why not the expat? This in my view is a discriminatory action. There are many foreigners some of which have between 10-15+ years loyal service to the airline and are effectively put on the street without gaining currency in the sim. This in not Korean culture. It is also not in line with best practise for the eventuality when the industry recovers and requires initiating recruitment campaigns again.

There is the omnipresent possibility the agency (We hope) is in some sort of negotiations with the airline requiring them to put their best foot forward and honour what was legally signed and agreed. Having said that, in the absence of legal certainty, there is some fallback with the Ministry of Employment and Korean labour law which offers some glimmer of hope for expatriates based on the fact pilots contributed to the Korean tax system. Currently an avenue of investigation.

Last edited by Inchun; 19th Jun 2020 at 19:54.
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Old 19th Jun 2020, 05:35
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Originally Posted by lee_apromise View Post
Let me get this straight, pilots in EU, Australia and New Zealand are getting furloughed and US pilots are embracing to be furloughed on Oct 1st and contract expats in Korea who are not on local seniority list are complaining about getting their contracts terminated whilst EastarJet went belly up, Asiana deal about to fall through, Air Seoul expected to be liquidated, T'way and JejuAir not big enough to receive government financial assistance?

You guys are delusional and how is that racism?
Nope, racism has got nothing to do with this, but Malpractices and extremely unfair attitude has....
just because you mentioned it: in all eu countries and many parts of the world unemployment support is available to aviation professional. WHERE THIS IS NOT POSSIBLE THE STANDARD NOTICE IS OFFERED TO EMPLOYEES, WHATEVER CONTRACT THEY ARE IN.

Simple as that, the sneaky and outrageous way of treating people and their family like garbage is now well known in the aviation industry, and it won’t be forgotten easily.

And btw you should get updated infos on the financial results of korean companies in this last Q2, you will be surprised....

The only delusional here appears to be you with your out of context comments....
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Old 19th Jun 2020, 06:07
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Originally Posted by Flyoveriraq View Post
Nope, racism has got nothing to do with this, but Malpractices and extremely unfair attitude has....
just because you mentioned it: in all eu countries and many parts of the world unemployment support is available to aviation professional. WHERE THIS IS NOT POSSIBLE THE STANDARD NOTICE IS OFFERED TO EMPLOYEES, WHATEVER CONTRACT THEY ARE IN.

Simple as that, the sneaky and outrageous way of treating people and their family like garbage is now well known in the aviation industry, and it won’t be forgotten easily.

And btw you should get updated infos on the financial results of korean companies in this last Q2, you will be surprised....

The only delusional here appears to be you with your out of context comments....
Yeah, in Q2, KAL and OZ did better than expected due to their cargo growth, everybody knows that.

What I'm trying to say is, you guys are contractors, not permanent employees. You talk about unemployment assistance for aviation professionals. Tell me what kind of unemployment assistance local Korean pilots receive after EastarJet guys lost their jobs overnight. Nothing other than unemployment insurance benefits. Folks have become delivery drivers, laborers in construction sites, working in coffee shops and convenience stores.

The same goes to US pilots expecting to be furloughed on Oct 1st. A lot of folks are accepting the reality that they will have to drive trucks until they get recalled. The same for Canadian pilots who are on furlough as well.

You expect Korean companies to have foreigners on payroll whilst local pilots are losing jobs?

It's not me who is delusional, it's expats with sense of entitlements who are delusional.

Again, contractors are contractors, not permanent employees. Like BAe 146-100 said above, take it like the rest of the world.

You guys are not the only ones in financial burdens.


Last edited by lee_apromise; 19th Jun 2020 at 06:19.
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Old 19th Jun 2020, 07:20
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All aircrew are unsure of their future, even the Korean nationals who as LEE said were fired from low cost airlines. I know both Asiana and KoreanAir Korean pilots are taking a big pay cut. As far as foreigners are concerned the B744 pilots are very busy hauling cargo, The rest are on LOA or not had contracts renewed, or in some cases terminated.
a difficult time indeed.
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Old 19th Jun 2020, 11:10
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Originally Posted by lee_apromise View Post
Yeah, in Q2, KAL and OZ did better than expected due to their cargo growth, everybody knows that.

What I'm trying to say is, you guys are contractors, not permanent employees. You talk about unemployment assistance for aviation professionals. Tell me what kind of unemployment assistance local Korean pilots receive after EastarJet guys lost their jobs overnight. Nothing other than unemployment insurance benefits. Folks have become delivery drivers, laborers in construction sites, working in coffee shops and convenience stores.

The same goes to US pilots expecting to be furloughed on Oct 1st. A lot of folks are accepting the reality that they will have to drive trucks until they get recalled. The same for Canadian pilots who are on furlough as well.

You expect Korean companies to have foreigners on payroll whilst local pilots are losing jobs?

It's not me who is delusional, it's expats with sense of entitlements who are delusional.

Again, contractors are contractors, not permanent employees. Like BAe 146-100 said above, take it like the rest of the world.

You guys are not the only ones in financial burdens.
Again, even with a proper english you seem to avoid answering, but that’s all normal considering the level of arrogance showed in your post and previous ones....

I am proud to be a contractor and I choose it. I knew exactly what to expect and how.
I am not asking for korean unemployement, I am not asking to be paid instead of a local pilot, I am asking to have a fair dismissal if my services are not required anymore.
It is unjust, and extremely malicious, to avoid assuming responsibility on these terms and keeping expat pilots Unable to exercise their rights.
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Old 19th Jun 2020, 11:49
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Originally Posted by Flyoveriraq View Post
Again, even with a proper english you seem to avoid answering, but that’s all normal considering the level of arrogance showed in your post and previous ones....

I am proud to be a contractor and I choose it. I knew exactly what to expect and how.
I am not asking for korean unemployement, I am not asking to be paid instead of a local pilot, I am asking to have a fair dismissal if my services are not required anymore.
It is unjust, and extremely malicious, to avoid assuming responsibility on these terms and keeping expat pilots Unable to exercise their rights.
Do I sense of western superiority of yours because you presume my level of English is lower than yours? And what did I avoid to answer?

Korean Labor Code
Chapter 2
Article 26: requires employer to give the employee at least 30 days notice for the termination of the employment. If 30 days notice is not given, the pay in lieu of 30 days must be given to the employee except in the circumstances of Force Majeure.

Article 27: requires employer to give a written notice of termination of employment

Article 28: employee may file for a grievance to the National Labor Relations Commission for unjust termination of employment within 3 months of the termination of the employment

Ministry of Labor's interpretation of "Article 24" (근기 68207-780, 2001.3.8) does explain why forced unpaid is justified.

The ministry's interpretation of the Article 24 is:
"Article 24 states that the employer must try to avoid termination of the employment however should the need to terminate the employment arise, there should be a fair standard and process of employment termination and choose the employees to be terminated based on the fair due process. However, if the employer forces unpaid leave upon employees to save as many jobs as possible, ultimately this is for the benefit of employees. The forced unpaid leave may only be allowed if there was a severe economic hardships of the business enterprise. The forced unpaid leave may only be awarded upon those who are chosen to be terminated based on fair and reasonable process and methods."

Look, as much as I don't want fellow aviators to lose jobs and go into financial hardships but the reality is the reality.

Last edited by lee_apromise; 19th Jun 2020 at 12:15.
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Old 21st Jun 2020, 02:35
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Originally Posted by Clown330 View Post
Thanks for your info Captain but Asiana Airlines did not stop operations.
Locals have 15/15 or 10/20 roster for half wages.
Almost all expats got a contract termination letter from agencies and unpaid leave prolongation letter from company(
So no roster, no money and expired medical, sim and line check( Brilliant!

Actually it does not looks like force majeuere&

This is rasism(
Airlines do Not need to demonstrate they ceased operations, which in many cases they did as countries barred them from flying there. Force Majura is a long standing practice used by businesses and airlines. Northwest airlines used it during SARS and many have invoked it during 9/11 times. All you need to demonstrate are major economic impacts occurred outside of your control. COVID-19’s classification as a “pandemic” by the WHO will trigger a force majeure clause that expressly accounts for “pandemics.” That said, the declaration of pandemic standing alone—without a reference to pandemics in a force majeure clause. Recent governmental regulations intended to contain the COVID-19 outbreak may similarly make it easier to invoke a force majeure clause not previously triggered by the virus. Ever-expanding governmental restrictions on travel, movement, and large gatherings have resulted in significant business interruptions and widespread event and travel cancellations, with a particularly salient impact on the event, tourism, restaurant, airline, venue rental, and sports and entertainment sectors.
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Old 21st Jun 2020, 08:56
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Originally Posted by WYOMINGPILOT View Post
Airlines do Not need to demonstrate they ceased operations, which in many cases they did as countries barred them from flying there. Force Majura is a long standing practice used by businesses and airlines. Northwest airlines used it during SARS and many have invoked it during 9/11 times. All you need to demonstrate are major economic impacts occurred outside of your control. COVID-19’s classification as a “pandemic” by the WHO will trigger a force majeure clause that expressly accounts for “pandemics.” That said, the declaration of pandemic standing alone—without a reference to pandemics in a force majeure clause. Recent governmental regulations intended to contain the COVID-19 outbreak may similarly make it easier to invoke a force majeure clause not previously triggered by the virus. Ever-expanding governmental restrictions on travel, movement, and large gatherings have resulted in significant business interruptions and widespread event and travel cancellations, with a particularly salient impact on the event, tourism, restaurant, airline, venue rental, and sports and entertainment sectors.
All correct. We all know what is happening around us. But the topic is different. It is about ethics and fare practices.

As we are talking about korean air and Asiana we can notice that the economic impact has actually been positive. Asiana was in deep financial burden well before this situation but it is well known that recently attracted big investors.
korean air...well 2018 and 2019 where the best financial years so far, in Q1 they lost some 40 $M, and in Q2 we all know they made a good profit thanks to cargo prices.

We are all aware of what is a contractor and the risk of losing a job.

what is discussed here is the way these companies are holding the fate of people without taking their responsabilities.
It is very easy to demonstrate that they have discriminated amongst the same group of contractors, and i can give you example for that.

IF A COMPANY DO NOT NEED THE SERVICES OF CONTRACTORS THEY CAN GIVE A SIMPLE NOTICE AND PAY THE DUE.
LIKE THIS THEY ARE PUTTING THE HANDS ON MY FAMILY SAVINGS, AND LETTING MY PROFESSIONAL LICENSES FADE AWAY.

I actually found another occupation and will never think of going back to these scammers.
To all those pilots asking me how was in korean air i’m just telling the truth, no need to invent any story, reality is already enough.
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Old 21st Jun 2020, 09:08
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lee_apromise;

The ministry's interpretation of the Article 24 is:
"Article 24 states that the employer must try to avoid termination of the employment however should the need to terminate the employment arise, there should be a fair standard and process of employment termination and choose the employees to be terminated based on the fair due process. However, if the employer forces unpaid leave upon employees to save as many jobs as possible, ultimately this is for the benefit of employees. The forced unpaid leave may only be allowed if there was a severe economic hardships of the business enterprise. The forced unpaid leave may only be awarded upon those who are chosen to be terminated based on fair and reasonable process and methods."

Thanks, this explains everything. Unfortunately it is not like that.

Western superiority?!?! I will not answer to that. I lived half of my life in foreign countries and always adapted nicely with local culture. What I can say is that amongst majority of nice and cultured people I’ve met, there is always a bunch of idiots thinking that foreigners are evil and stealing jobs from locals......
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Old 21st Jun 2020, 11:04
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Originally Posted by Flyoveriraq View Post
IF A COMPANY DO NOT NEED THE SERVICES OF CONTRACTORS THEY CAN GIVE A SIMPLE NOTICE AND PAY THE DUE.

BINGO!!!!....This is what they are trying to avoid paying us and this is what I'm fighting for!
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Old 21st Jun 2020, 12:12
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Originally Posted by Flyoveriraq View Post
All correct. We all know what is happening around us. But the topic is different. It is about ethics and fare practices.

As we are talking about korean air and Asiana we can notice that the economic impact has actually been positive. Asiana was in deep financial burden well before this situation but it is well known that recently attracted big investors.
korean air...well 2018 and 2019 where the best financial years so far, in Q1 they lost some 40 $M, and in Q2 we all know they made a good profit thanks to cargo prices.

We are all aware of what is a contractor and the risk of losing a job.

what is discussed here is the way these companies are holding the fate of people without taking their responsabilities.
It is very easy to demonstrate that they have discriminated amongst the same group of contractors, and i can give you example for that.

IF A COMPANY DO NOT NEED THE SERVICES OF CONTRACTORS THEY CAN GIVE A SIMPLE NOTICE AND PAY THE DUE.
LIKE THIS THEY ARE PUTTING THE HANDS ON MY FAMILY SAVINGS, AND LETTING MY PROFESSIONAL LICENSES FADE AWAY.

I actually found another occupation and will never think of going back to these scammers.
To all those pilots asking me how was in korean air i’m just telling the truth, no need to invent any story, reality is already enough.
Complaining and whining on PPRuNe won’t fix your problem. Your way forward is to consolidate as many pilots as possible into a blanket umbrella labor complaint and pool your money to get professional legal counsel to force the airline to pay your 60 days severance. If they soon go bankrupt you will have little recourse so time is of the essence to get a complaint posted before the airlines seek bankruptcy protection. Many of us Expats have been through and airline bankruptcy and received nothing and forfeiting our final months salary and zero severance pay. Airlines can try and make the argument they cannot pay you anything due to extenuating circumstances ie Force Majeure which is out of their control and paying the severance pay due would financially cause serious harm to them. Up to a Court to decide. I suggest you get professional legal counsel immediately. It’s like asking for tax advice on PPRuNe, that don’t work well. Get a professional Korean Labour Law attorney and pool your cases so as to spread your attorney fees out. Good luck.
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Old 21st Jun 2020, 15:00
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Originally Posted by WYOMINGPILOT View Post
Complaining and whining on PPRuNe won’t fix your problem. Your way forward is to consolidate as many pilots as possible into a blanket umbrella labor complaint and pool your money to get professional legal counsel to force the airline to pay your 60 days severance. If they soon go bankrupt you will have little recourse so time is of the essence to get a complaint posted before the airlines seek bankruptcy protection. Many of us Expats have been through and airline bankruptcy and received nothing and forfeiting our final months salary and zero severance pay. Airlines can try and make the argument they cannot pay you anything due to extenuating circumstances ie Force Majeure which is out of their control and paying the severance pay due would financially cause serious harm to them. Up to a Court to decide. I suggest you get professional legal counsel immediately. It’s like asking for tax advice on PPRuNe, that don’t work well. Get a professional Korean Labour Law attorney and pool your cases so as to spread your attorney fees out. Good luck.

you are totally right. And that’s the only thing that should be done.
PPRuNe is just a window upon our world: it spread rumors and sometimes the truth.
I only wish that those who are forgotten in these harsh times know that there is always something to do.

end of story.
FOI
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