Get rich in China?

[Fire and brimstone]

Sorry as I expect this may have been done already ........

Many job ads out there at the moment offering USD 300,000 net (net!) a year, full time contracts. USD 200,000+ for 4 week-on, 4 week-off commuter contracts, again net pay.

This is massively more than you can earn as a short-haul Captain in Europe. Even the 'part-time' option nets more than double what I get in Europe full time.

Accepting it's in China, and not 50 miles up the motorway, what is the catch?

Heard LOTS of bad stuff about rostering, hotels, leave, etc. But this is Vs a frankly huge level of remuneration on offer.

You'd have to have a mercenary attitude to do it, but Vs the money is it really such a bad deal?

I'd be looking for 3-5 years max of this to finish off the mortgage early.

Thoughts?

[BAe 146-100]

Rostering, hotels is the least of your worries, the problem is getting on line and the endless paperwork and delays it takes to get you there. Plan 8-12 months if everything goes to plan and even then that is with 2 med and 2 sim rides passed, plus the atp exam which is not a walk over.

The money is there for a reason because its hard to get over the line and they have a high need of capts but due to their rules (one of which is ruling many nationalities out of applying due to the diplomatic relations rule) most people can not , its not there because the air is bad, the chinese are difficult blah blah....

[Fire and brimstone]

Thanks BAe

In a nutshell, a 'pilot shortage', and they STILL make it difficult for us!!!!!

[fatbus]

Ther are not motivated to make it easy for expats

[Eric Janson]

Originally Posted by Fire and brimstone

Accepting it's in China, and not 50 miles up the motorway, what is the catch?

Throwing out numbers is meaningless without a detailed breakdown of how this number is calculated.

Example:- The quoted salary is based on maximum overtime (which you will never do).

There are a number of examples where you are lured in with one contract and then when it's time to sign (bridges burnt) you are presented with a contract featuring lower terms and conditions.

If it was really that easy we'd all be flying there.....

[joe falchetto 64]

Originally Posted by Eric Janson

Throwing out numbers is meaningless without a detailed breakdown of how this number is calculated.

Example:- The quoted salary is based on maximum overtime (which you will never do).

There are a number of examples where you are lured in with one contract and then when it's time to sign (bridges burnt) you are presented with a contract featuring lower terms and conditions.

If it was really that easy we'd all be flying there.....

Not that easy but I have pretty much direct knowledge of many contracts there: the lowest paid is obviously the 4/4 commuting pattern. It is easy to find something like, let' say, usd 190,000 / year base salary (flat) plus usd 10,000 year loyalty bonus (flat) plus usd 10,000 year safety bonus (flat) plus allowance usd 10,000 yearly for trips and usd 8000 yearly for accommodation : so, without taking in consideration extra flight hours, a 4/4 contract gives usd 228,000 yearly net .

[fatbus]

With who ?

[joe falchetto 64]

Originally Posted by fatbus

With who ?

Actually 3 airlines on A 320; with B 737 a little bit less but not that much. Also if anyone likes the resident contract, flat monthl pay is usd 25,000. Obviously all the issues are still there, medical first of all: but the recruiting process can be as fast as 4 months. Many people talk about China, but it is a big country, with more than 56 airlines, and 4 CAAC districts, each one with its own set of rules : that is why anyone willing to join should do a careful homework

[WYOMINGPILOT]

I would say go for it but make sure you have an exit plan as you may need it sooner than 3-5 years. Don't leave a stable long term job to come to China. What is happening now in the aviation world can and does change rapidly. When you come to China expect 3-4 trips to accomplish all the screening and 6-9 months before you are hired and the process is only getting worse as the CAAC puts endless rounds of verifications and checks before they give your target company the green light to hire you. When you start expect about 1 year before you are checked to the line and endless hoops, checks, and you will be screened inside a glass house continuously during that period. After checked to the line expect a minimum of 6 months before you are allowed to let the copilot force any landings so 4-6 sector days with 16 hour crew duty days and you doing all the flying. On the rare off day you will have safety meetings, ground training and medical and Sim training events to accomplish. The failure rate is about 50% for time on type Captains for the initial Sim screening. The medical pass rate is about 60% and the ATPL test is about 70% pass on the first go. The CAAC check is another high failure rate and then you still have the company training and Sim check and then both right and left seat line training you must be signed off on by multiple Chinese Instructors before being given a Line check. Follow on medical checks are also difficult and every 6 months once you are age 40 along with recurrent Sim checks every 6 months with 10% failure rate. The biggest fear you will have is line flying and QAR a FOQA type system where anything you do wrong is continuously recorded. Late configurations, GPWS warnings, speed brakes with certain flap settings, long and hard landings, over rotations, high airspeed or 1 dot deviations on an ILS and you will called in and punished, fined and publicly shamed as the company sends out emails to all Captains about other pilots transgressions. After a 3 year contract you will be very burned out and your health will start deteriorating all the while you still have to pass the next medical. If you think you have the mind to try being a part of the "Right Stuff" for the Chinese and make the big bucks go for it just always have an exit plan as it will most likely be required sooner than later.

[joe falchetto 64]

Originally Posted by WYOMINGPILOT

I would say go for it but make sure you have an exit plan as you may need it sooner than 3-5 years. Don't leave a stable long term job to come to China. What is happening now in the aviation world can and does change rapidly. When you come to China expect 3-4 trips to accomplish all the screening and 6-9 months before you are hired and the process is only getting worse as the CAAC puts endless rounds of verifications and checks before they give your target company the green light to hire you. When you start expect about 1 year before you are checked to the line and endless hoops, checks, and you will be screened inside a glass house continuously during that period. After checked to the line expect a minimum of 6 months before you are allowed to let the copilot force any landings so 4-6 sector days with 16 hour crew duty days and you doing all the flying. On the rare off day you will have safety meetings, ground training and medical and Sim training events to accomplish. The failure rate is about 50% for time on type Captains for the initial Sim screening. The medical pass rate is about 60% and the ATPL test is about 70% pass on the first go. The CAAC check is another high failure rate and then you still have the company training and Sim check and then both right and left seat line training you must be signed off on by multiple Chinese Instructors before being given a Line check. Follow on medical checks are also difficult and every 6 months once you are age 40 along with recurrent Sim checks every 6 months with 10% failure rate. The biggest fear you will have is line flying and QAR a FOQA type system where anything you do wrong is continuously recorded. Late configurations, GPWS warnings, speed brakes with certain flap settings, long and hard landings, over rotations, high airspeed or 1 dot deviations on an ILS and you will called in and punished, fined and publicly shamed as the company sends out emails to all Captains about other pilots transgressions. After a 3 year contract you will be very burned out and your health will start deteriorating all the while you still have to pass the next medical. If you think you have the mind to try being a part of the "Right Stuff" for the Chinese and make the big bucks go for it just always have an exit plan as it will most likely be required sooner than later.

I agree regarding the exit plan: I always have a plan B and C ready, just in case, and this apply not only to China. For all the other issues, my experience is a little better than what is described here: I have been lucky, 5 years, 2 airlines, never failed a sim, never failed a medical, never got punished. My last line check for release has been done after 2 months flying (could have been earlier, but now I fly for a young airline) but at full pay from the first day. Anyway this is true as today: tomorrow I can be failed at the medical or fail some training, and that is part of the game. Just another thing: I fly 4 on and get 2 off, and I never go to company meeting during my days off.

[Trash8mofo]

Originally Posted by WYOMINGPILOT

I would say go for it but make sure you have an exit plan as you may need it sooner than 3-5 years. Don't leave a stable long term job to come to China. What is happening now in the aviation world can and does change rapidly. When you come to China expect 3-4 trips to accomplish all the screening and 6-9 months before you are hired and the process is only getting worse as the CAAC puts endless rounds of verifications and checks before they give your target company the green light to hire you. When you start expect about 1 year before you are checked to the line and endless hoops, checks, and you will be screened inside a glass house continuously during that period. After checked to the line expect a minimum of 6 months before you are allowed to let the copilot force any landings so 4-6 sector days with 16 hour crew duty days and you doing all the flying. On the rare off day you will have safety meetings, ground training and medical and Sim training events to accomplish. The failure rate is about 50% for time on type Captains for the initial Sim screening. The medical pass rate is about 60% and the ATPL test is about 70% pass on the first go. The CAAC check is another high failure rate and then you still have the company training and Sim check and then both right and left seat line training you must be signed off on by multiple Chinese Instructors before being given a Line check. Follow on medical checks are also difficult and every 6 months once you are age 40 along with recurrent Sim checks every 6 months with 10% failure rate. The biggest fear you will have is line flying and QAR a FOQA type system where anything you do wrong is continuously recorded. Late configurations, GPWS warnings, speed brakes with certain flap settings, long and hard landings, over rotations, high airspeed or 1 dot deviations on an ILS and you will called in and punished, fined and publicly shamed as the company sends out emails to all Captains about other pilots transgressions. After a 3 year contract you will be very burned out and your health will start deteriorating all the while you still have to pass the next medical. If you think you have the mind to try being a part of the "Right Stuff" for the Chinese and make the big bucks go for it just always have an exit plan as it will most likely be required sooner than later.

Not a single word that wasn't true here. I have been in China for years. The hoops you have to jump through don't stop coming. Even now. And you are ALWAYS on notice. "Captain (so and so) with FO (so and so) made a wrong turn on taxi. No incident caused. Regardless, both pilots demonstrated reckless attitude, and are off line duty for 1 month with no pay." These emails are normal occurrence.

[HFR]

6 months contract

Everybody knows China pays the most money for your time. But always keep in mind that you will basically be on a 6 months contract throughout your career there. Every sim check is a possibility for one of the CAAC checkers to fail a foreigner. A lot of them are very nice and fair guys. But once in a while you will stumble on a guy who thinks, possibly correctly, that foreigners shouldn't be there and earn that much, and have better schedules. And that guy will fail you for no good reason. Yes, it happened to me, and it has happened to others after me, and it will continue to happen. It is extremely insecure.