Air Japan, Tianjin, Or wait for US Major
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Air Japan, Tianjin, Or wait for US Major
Greetings! I have been a long time lurker of PPRune and have finally decided to reach out for advice.
I am 26 and currently an EMB175 Captain for a US regional. I have 4000TT and 1000 PIC in the EMB175. I have lived in a couple different countries growing up and still have the urge to explore the world further.
Here is my dilemma:
I have been reading these forums about flying all over Asia and it seems quite exciting and pretty lucrative. Growing up I always thought I would end up working for a ME carrier, but it seems the lifestyle and T&Cs have deteriorated fairly rapidly and doesn't seem worth it to me anymore.
The Air Japan thread is very extensive (big thanks to Dominican and Fratemate), and it sounds like a great contract and place to work..especially with the commute taken care of. With my EMB time, it seems the only Chinese contract that I qualify for would be Tianjin Airlines EMB190 Captain, which seems like a good contract on paper, but I can't find any real information on what it is actually like to live/work there. If anyone could shed some light on what it is actually like there, I would love to hear it.
Most people I fly with and talk to over here think that I should just "wait until a major calls," but that might honestly never happen. I don't think it is something to bank on. I also don't quite buy the pilot shortage story being sold here and don't have much confidence in the unions at the US legacy airlines. Do you guys think it would be worth it to dive into the contract world and do something like Air Japan or Tianjin for a few years?
Thanks for your input!
I am 26 and currently an EMB175 Captain for a US regional. I have 4000TT and 1000 PIC in the EMB175. I have lived in a couple different countries growing up and still have the urge to explore the world further.
Here is my dilemma:
I have been reading these forums about flying all over Asia and it seems quite exciting and pretty lucrative. Growing up I always thought I would end up working for a ME carrier, but it seems the lifestyle and T&Cs have deteriorated fairly rapidly and doesn't seem worth it to me anymore.
The Air Japan thread is very extensive (big thanks to Dominican and Fratemate), and it sounds like a great contract and place to work..especially with the commute taken care of. With my EMB time, it seems the only Chinese contract that I qualify for would be Tianjin Airlines EMB190 Captain, which seems like a good contract on paper, but I can't find any real information on what it is actually like to live/work there. If anyone could shed some light on what it is actually like there, I would love to hear it.
Most people I fly with and talk to over here think that I should just "wait until a major calls," but that might honestly never happen. I don't think it is something to bank on. I also don't quite buy the pilot shortage story being sold here and don't have much confidence in the unions at the US legacy airlines. Do you guys think it would be worth it to dive into the contract world and do something like Air Japan or Tianjin for a few years?
Thanks for your input!
Last edited by PeterGibbons; 16th Jul 2016 at 04:03.
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All the young F/O's at AirJapan that are USCitizens have apps with the majors in the US...., not that the job is bad mind you (although it used to be a lot better) but you will simply do better back home, both economically and in job security...., Air Japan has pretty much refused to take a look at pay, period! they are convinced that their pay package is still competitive...., it is a contract job and every 5 years is just a lottery on renewal, most people get renewed but there are some that have been let go..... And the upgrade is really a lottery..! Latelly the failure rate is between 40-50% and if you get bumpt twice, that's it! permanent F/O...
For many people works great but for a young pilot such as yourself my recommendation is to try to make a career back in the US....., if you like Asia, you can always try to get based out here with UAL, FDX, DAL etc that operate bases out here.
Good luck!
For many people works great but for a young pilot such as yourself my recommendation is to try to make a career back in the US....., if you like Asia, you can always try to get based out here with UAL, FDX, DAL etc that operate bases out here.
Good luck!
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I think your age might be hurting you initially with a Major. Try and work a few years as an ExPat but keep all Apps updated and on file for the Majors in the US. Avoid the ME at all costs. Remain where you are at before going to the ME. In China the pay is good but it comes with strings but might work for a few years for you to get ahead financially. Look at 9-Air, SF Express and Tianjin Airlines in that order as they all hire EMB Captains to transition to the 737 NG and Tianjin as an EMB Captain. If you get 3-4 years as an NG Captain you will be highly marketable at any Major especially Southwest.
Best of Luck!!!
Best of Luck!!!
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PG: Having worked for two Chinese airlines in the past 8 years and a Hong Kong carrier for almost 11, if I were in your shoes I would NOT at this stage of your career consider working for a Mainland Chinese airline. The reason is simple; your standards will erode. There is very little good sim training to be had and most of it will be negative training - that is showing you things that will make your head spin. Ground training is done in Chinese, so forget about learning anything new. Please don't chase the money, it is NOT worth it. Your career will suffer immeasurably if you make the leap to China now. I was considerably older than you when I did so, but the most important thing I had going for me was my previous experience. I was very well trained at Dragonair and well versed in operating in China by the time I made the leap. If you really want to become an expat (I totally get that and have no regrets personally) and if you are SINGLE then I would suggest the following airlines:
1. Dragonair - no second officer position to worry about. My obvious bias. Please read threads on Fragrant Harbour for more insight.
2. Cathay Pacific - a larger more upscale airline with a global network, but you will start in a non-flying role.
3. Emirates, Etihad or QATAR.
Airlines to avoid: Hong Kong Airlines, Hong Kong Express or any airlines related to Hainan. Please feel free to add/subtract to the list.
Final parting message. Yes the grass may appear greener in China, but there is a huge sacrifice in job quality and job satisfaction that comes with the territory. By all means become an expat but really dig down to understand your motivation to become one. If it is money alone then you will not be satisfied anywhere in Asia. If you relish change, excitement and career progression then chose your airline wisely. Best of luck to you and feel free to PM me for more info on China.
1. Dragonair - no second officer position to worry about. My obvious bias. Please read threads on Fragrant Harbour for more insight.
2. Cathay Pacific - a larger more upscale airline with a global network, but you will start in a non-flying role.
3. Emirates, Etihad or QATAR.
Airlines to avoid: Hong Kong Airlines, Hong Kong Express or any airlines related to Hainan. Please feel free to add/subtract to the list.
Final parting message. Yes the grass may appear greener in China, but there is a huge sacrifice in job quality and job satisfaction that comes with the territory. By all means become an expat but really dig down to understand your motivation to become one. If it is money alone then you will not be satisfied anywhere in Asia. If you relish change, excitement and career progression then chose your airline wisely. Best of luck to you and feel free to PM me for more info on China.
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Hi FBwdude,
It's been my personal experience, and from word of mouth from those working there, that Hainan simply does not honour the contract that they offer. They make promises they have no intention of keeping and a master or creating window dressing so as to make the job look appealing. They are unwilling to negotiate terms of the contract which are vague or extremely punitive (and yes the monetary punishments are quite severe at times). I am a highly experienced A330 Captain and have worked in China/Asia since 1997 and they wanted to hire me on the spot when I applied. Once I began tabling my issues with the contract on offer I was told by my broker that they do not negotiate - regardless how offensive it was. The poor treatment of foreign pilots is becoming legendary and even the local pilots (those that thought Hainan was the place to go) are starting to reconsider a move there after listening to the feedback. The truth is that working for a Mainland Chinese Airline is very unfulfilling but it pays extremely well. It really isn't for everyone, especially those that are inflexible. Even as a Captain, I have to play the chameleon very well; a role that I thought was relegated to First Officers.
Bottom line: read the contract and understand it. If you don't understand it get legal advise so that you do. Once your diligence is complete then you are in a better position to make an informed decision.
It's been my personal experience, and from word of mouth from those working there, that Hainan simply does not honour the contract that they offer. They make promises they have no intention of keeping and a master or creating window dressing so as to make the job look appealing. They are unwilling to negotiate terms of the contract which are vague or extremely punitive (and yes the monetary punishments are quite severe at times). I am a highly experienced A330 Captain and have worked in China/Asia since 1997 and they wanted to hire me on the spot when I applied. Once I began tabling my issues with the contract on offer I was told by my broker that they do not negotiate - regardless how offensive it was. The poor treatment of foreign pilots is becoming legendary and even the local pilots (those that thought Hainan was the place to go) are starting to reconsider a move there after listening to the feedback. The truth is that working for a Mainland Chinese Airline is very unfulfilling but it pays extremely well. It really isn't for everyone, especially those that are inflexible. Even as a Captain, I have to play the chameleon very well; a role that I thought was relegated to First Officers.
Bottom line: read the contract and understand it. If you don't understand it get legal advise so that you do. Once your diligence is complete then you are in a better position to make an informed decision.
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Thanks for all the input guys! I will do some more research on all the airlines you suggested.
Dominican, I think you are right though about just sticking it out for a US Major. The best option would be go get on with FedEx out of HKG, but that seems like a long shot for now!
Avoka -- I've read that Upside Down book about flying in China, but to me it seems way too xenophobic and biased. I've talked to people personally who have flown in China and some loved it, some hated it. Thanks for the link though!
Dominican, I think you are right though about just sticking it out for a US Major. The best option would be go get on with FedEx out of HKG, but that seems like a long shot for now!
Avoka -- I've read that Upside Down book about flying in China, but to me it seems way too xenophobic and biased. I've talked to people personally who have flown in China and some loved it, some hated it. Thanks for the link though!
Last edited by PeterGibbons; 18th Jul 2016 at 05:17.
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Simple, don't go to China, try Japan until your call comes from a US carrier, some guys don't even make it through the course before the call, some get international experience and then go. It's not a traumatic choice, you've got to enhance the log book and Japan will do that for a while. You're not getting married to the job... No brainier.
