China Southern wannabes
Join Date: Oct 2006
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Thank you for the Information......!
Yes...., thanks to my kids I'm familiar with the whole google thing... But I'm also familiar with the amount of BS that results from a google search.
Since this is a site where professionals meet to discuss issues and the best place to find people who are actually working at CSA, It is best to ask the people who are experiencing it...., a google search will only give me the contract agencies propaganda.
Yes...., thanks to my kids I'm familiar with the whole google thing... But I'm also familiar with the amount of BS that results from a google search.
Since this is a site where professionals meet to discuss issues and the best place to find people who are actually working at CSA, It is best to ask the people who are experiencing it...., a google search will only give me the contract agencies propaganda.
Join Date: Oct 2015
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Brokers
Capt Tired,
Please feel free to PM me. I have a number of years of experience working in China and am willing to offer you some insight on the brokers I've worked with.
Regards.
Please feel free to PM me. I have a number of years of experience working in China and am willing to offer you some insight on the brokers I've worked with.
Regards.
Join Date: Dec 2015
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There's a lot of bull in this thread.. I am currently doing this job and I can assure all of you it's by far the best I've had. The flying is very easygoing and the Chinese caac rules concerning rest and 4 pilots for all international flights is beautiful, just ask any ex sand pit driver. Typical flights involve doing only about 5 hours at the wheel and the rest in the bunk, also I do around 2 landings a month. Now for those of you who want to rest less, get paid less, land and take off more then I'm sure there's a job out there for you.
As regards the recurring question about who the captain is.. First off anyone who has never flown long haul will immediately not understand how long haul works. So I'm not even going to attempt to explain that. Secondly, in china the copilots do all paper work and they will be signing your name as PIC for exactly half of all time flown. When you are in the seat you take off and land but as part of a four pilot crew and being a junior employee you can expect it will be a while before you are the 'leader' PIC. As in the guy who decides who sleeps when, and that's the way it should be. Other airlines do away with seniority and respect and look where that's gotten them, again if that's what you want there's a job out there for you, here you have to build that respect over a number of years. But you are still a fully type rated and certified capt and easa will issue you with a easa license once you provide your sim check and caac license details.
As regards the basing, the euro crews asked for a euro base and they were given it. The Chinese have shown a willingness to negotiate everything, unlike some employers I can think of. That said Vancouver and Auckland fell through but there may yet be movement there. If you are Guangzhou based you can work 20-10 or 18-12 if you count leave.
Money is 200 dollars a day induction (first two weeks)
12k a month thereafter for 6 months (3 months if type rated)
After that 18k (rsp) 18830 (CAN base)
Year 2 19k/19830
Year 3 20k/20830
Year 4 21k/21830.
6k every January providing you have no screw ups...
Agents: firstly all agencies get the same amount of seats from Csa. What that means is that if there are 100 seats and 10 agencies all agencies get ten seats. So if one agency tells you there's a waiting list, try a different one, it may be that they simply have too many names, no one gets preferential treatment. Am quite happy with my agent as they have a tendency to show up every now and then in China rather than hide in an office but I won't do their advertising for them as that's not appropriate here. Do your homework.. Remember in China they don't care if an agency is big or small, it's all about relationship here. If you want clear terms and conditions then don't come here. China is not Europe. I'll give them one thing though, they don't mess about with money, they pay in full and on time every time.
Lastly guys is the main point I want to make. Don't come to China expecting all your problems to be solved. This job suits some and not others, and is definitely not for the faint hearted. The sims are very tough and so are the medicals. I read about guys in earlier threads failing because they ran out of time, yes you will fail for this because you're too slow, they don't want you flying in circles and talking sh@t for 45 mins with a failed engine. They want a downwind circuit and landing and all checklists read in that time hand flown mostly. And they're right. They want steep turns, stalls, crosswind circuits single engine at 40kt with map mode off. Also your time here is all about your relationship with the company, contracts mean little in China, so don't expect waving it about to work. Blend in, enjoy the cash, the nightlife (😀😀
the rest (😀😀 etc. Do your homework, get advice from friends, and welcome aboard if you decide to come over.
As regards the recurring question about who the captain is.. First off anyone who has never flown long haul will immediately not understand how long haul works. So I'm not even going to attempt to explain that. Secondly, in china the copilots do all paper work and they will be signing your name as PIC for exactly half of all time flown. When you are in the seat you take off and land but as part of a four pilot crew and being a junior employee you can expect it will be a while before you are the 'leader' PIC. As in the guy who decides who sleeps when, and that's the way it should be. Other airlines do away with seniority and respect and look where that's gotten them, again if that's what you want there's a job out there for you, here you have to build that respect over a number of years. But you are still a fully type rated and certified capt and easa will issue you with a easa license once you provide your sim check and caac license details.
As regards the basing, the euro crews asked for a euro base and they were given it. The Chinese have shown a willingness to negotiate everything, unlike some employers I can think of. That said Vancouver and Auckland fell through but there may yet be movement there. If you are Guangzhou based you can work 20-10 or 18-12 if you count leave.
Money is 200 dollars a day induction (first two weeks)
12k a month thereafter for 6 months (3 months if type rated)
After that 18k (rsp) 18830 (CAN base)
Year 2 19k/19830
Year 3 20k/20830
Year 4 21k/21830.
6k every January providing you have no screw ups...
Agents: firstly all agencies get the same amount of seats from Csa. What that means is that if there are 100 seats and 10 agencies all agencies get ten seats. So if one agency tells you there's a waiting list, try a different one, it may be that they simply have too many names, no one gets preferential treatment. Am quite happy with my agent as they have a tendency to show up every now and then in China rather than hide in an office but I won't do their advertising for them as that's not appropriate here. Do your homework.. Remember in China they don't care if an agency is big or small, it's all about relationship here. If you want clear terms and conditions then don't come here. China is not Europe. I'll give them one thing though, they don't mess about with money, they pay in full and on time every time.
Lastly guys is the main point I want to make. Don't come to China expecting all your problems to be solved. This job suits some and not others, and is definitely not for the faint hearted. The sims are very tough and so are the medicals. I read about guys in earlier threads failing because they ran out of time, yes you will fail for this because you're too slow, they don't want you flying in circles and talking sh@t for 45 mins with a failed engine. They want a downwind circuit and landing and all checklists read in that time hand flown mostly. And they're right. They want steep turns, stalls, crosswind circuits single engine at 40kt with map mode off. Also your time here is all about your relationship with the company, contracts mean little in China, so don't expect waving it about to work. Blend in, enjoy the cash, the nightlife (😀😀
the rest (😀😀 etc. Do your homework, get advice from friends, and welcome aboard if you decide to come over.
Join Date: Oct 2006
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And if you are so kind BD.....!
As I understand the salary will be net with taxes paid in China by the company..., will they provide paperwork of the taxes paid on your behalf?
Thank you for your time
As I understand the salary will be net with taxes paid in China by the company..., will they provide paperwork of the taxes paid on your behalf?
Thank you for your time
Join Date: Mar 2008
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The D
Yes the salary is net of Chinese taxes and you will receive proof of taxes paid at the end of the year which you can show to your country of residence. What happens from there will depend on the DTA between your country of residence and China. For that i suggest talking directly to the Revenue in your country of residence. The advice is free and from the horses mouth so no bull........
One more point from the above post worth noting- if you want to be CAN based on the 20/10 and add leave days to make 18/12 this is no longer possible on 777 from next year. You are only allowed to use your leave days 5 times throughout the year so not able to 'add' 2 days a month to your 10 days off like many guys were doing this year. 330 and 787 dont have this restriction at least as far as i know.
Cheers,
One more point from the above post worth noting- if you want to be CAN based on the 20/10 and add leave days to make 18/12 this is no longer possible on 777 from next year. You are only allowed to use your leave days 5 times throughout the year so not able to 'add' 2 days a month to your 10 days off like many guys were doing this year. 330 and 787 dont have this restriction at least as far as i know.
Cheers,
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Thank you against Mach & BD....., sounds like the T7 is short on crews?
Is it possible to do reverse roster from JFK for example? And what are the commute conditions?
Best regards..., will stop bothering you guys for now
Is it possible to do reverse roster from JFK for example? And what are the commute conditions?
Best regards..., will stop bothering you guys for now
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Well there are actually some guys who would like an RSP in JFK so once they have the numbers i guess they would consider it especially given the fact that the locals hate flying there 😝😝
It could be a really great RSP if they went for it. 32 hours return and its a pax flight so no cargo delays. Contract is for 80 hours and a JFK return takes 4 days. You do the maths.... 👍😄
Regarding commuting- if JFK is what you are talking about then its doable as there are guys doing it now. Daily flight at the moment and 2 a day from next summer time. Commuting is space available upgrade but the JFK flights are pretty full and there have been some guys bumped into an economy seat more than once on that flight. 16 hours there is a LONG TIME. Food for thought.....
Cheers,
It could be a really great RSP if they went for it. 32 hours return and its a pax flight so no cargo delays. Contract is for 80 hours and a JFK return takes 4 days. You do the maths.... 👍😄
Regarding commuting- if JFK is what you are talking about then its doable as there are guys doing it now. Daily flight at the moment and 2 a day from next summer time. Commuting is space available upgrade but the JFK flights are pretty full and there have been some guys bumped into an economy seat more than once on that flight. 16 hours there is a LONG TIME. Food for thought.....
Cheers,
Join Date: Dec 2015
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First I've heard of that leave restriction but yes it may well be true, as regards that I'll probably try for 36-24 next year but so far my leave requests and indeed my days off requests have all been approved with change, and that's over a year now.
I second also what Mach said about taxation, don't mess about. Pilots are all tax experts except, they aren't. Don't listen to an accountant as I promise you they won't have a clue. Go straight to your tax office and lay the contract on the table, and yes they give you the tax return as above. One last thing, make sure you bring a healthy sense of humour guys, it'll pay dividends. Seriously. Pardon the pun. All the best to anyone on their way here, and also Mach is correct re basing. Once they have the numbers there's a good chance they'll open a new rsp. That said, anything can happen.
I second also what Mach said about taxation, don't mess about. Pilots are all tax experts except, they aren't. Don't listen to an accountant as I promise you they won't have a clue. Go straight to your tax office and lay the contract on the table, and yes they give you the tax return as above. One last thing, make sure you bring a healthy sense of humour guys, it'll pay dividends. Seriously. Pardon the pun. All the best to anyone on their way here, and also Mach is correct re basing. Once they have the numbers there's a good chance they'll open a new rsp. That said, anything can happen.
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Hey biggus,
Not sure which fleet your on and as I mentioned before, haven't heard of this restriction also applying on the 787 or 330 so wouldn't like to comment there.
If your on the 777 though and the relevant email missed your inbox somehow then let me know and ill PM it to you 👍
Cheers,
Not sure which fleet your on and as I mentioned before, haven't heard of this restriction also applying on the 787 or 330 so wouldn't like to comment there.
If your on the 777 though and the relevant email missed your inbox somehow then let me know and ill PM it to you 👍
Cheers,
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Very good post by Biggus
I can certainly confirm the accuracy of what was stated having been here for almost 3yrs.
A couple of points to add if I may.
In regard to PIC. Domestic PIC was introduced on the 330 when the foreign pilots asked for it. It is likely that International PIC was not given soon after as the pilots didnt ask for it due to the fact that domestic PIC turned out to be bloody awful. Huge delays and disruptions. So bad that such flights are now rarely scheduled due to the possibility of messing up the monthly RSP roster.
For those who have concerns regarding logging hours and what not at CSA. Some of the most senior 330 foreign pilots are now cleared for international PIC. In addition, some of those guys have also been sent for instructor training.
The 330 fleet still seems to be the best run. Here on the 777, things continue to improve slowly. I dont have enough info to confidently state how the 787 is going.
For those seriously considering giving it a try I would suggest caution regarding the suggestion of simply applying via another agent due to a full quota (BTW thats the first I have heard of quotas). Once an agent submits your paperwork you are stuck forever, so be careful.
The Tasman debacle was just that, a debacle. Whilst the person concerned is a quite a nice chap, as an agent he was wrong to screw a fellow pilot. It was a very sad state of affairs that will not be easily forgotten.
There are some good agents out there and they are not too hard to find.
Good luck to any who take the plunge.
I can certainly confirm the accuracy of what was stated having been here for almost 3yrs.
A couple of points to add if I may.
In regard to PIC. Domestic PIC was introduced on the 330 when the foreign pilots asked for it. It is likely that International PIC was not given soon after as the pilots didnt ask for it due to the fact that domestic PIC turned out to be bloody awful. Huge delays and disruptions. So bad that such flights are now rarely scheduled due to the possibility of messing up the monthly RSP roster.
For those who have concerns regarding logging hours and what not at CSA. Some of the most senior 330 foreign pilots are now cleared for international PIC. In addition, some of those guys have also been sent for instructor training.
The 330 fleet still seems to be the best run. Here on the 777, things continue to improve slowly. I dont have enough info to confidently state how the 787 is going.
For those seriously considering giving it a try I would suggest caution regarding the suggestion of simply applying via another agent due to a full quota (BTW thats the first I have heard of quotas). Once an agent submits your paperwork you are stuck forever, so be careful.
The Tasman debacle was just that, a debacle. Whilst the person concerned is a quite a nice chap, as an agent he was wrong to screw a fellow pilot. It was a very sad state of affairs that will not be easily forgotten.
There are some good agents out there and they are not too hard to find.
Good luck to any who take the plunge.
Join Date: Dec 2015
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A few months ago a few colleagues and I were rostered for a meeting with the company lawyer, very pleasant and informative and quite a clever lady. It was her that told us about the agent quotas so I can confirm that's true. Agencies do not get more seats because they are a 'big' agency. Am saying this here as I've heard that some pilots are being put on waiting lists, it thats the case you have the option to change agent and speed things up. And again as previously stated, do your homework.
Many rants on pprune about agents, essentially your agent is there to sort out your paper work (no small task in China believe me) and bring you through the application process. After that of course they are technically there to sort out your contractual issues but be warned, and this was out of the mouth of the company lawyer, 'in China, relationship more important than contract'. So DO NOT come here unless you are comfortable with that. That's China guys. This place is wonderful and terrible, crazy as it is big and funny as it can be depressing. If you do come here you will earn huge money, make some great friends and experience a new culture. Things will go wrong sometimes sure but you can kiss fatigue goodbye and say hello to 20gs a month.
Some guys seem to fit in here and some don't, I do have my theories as to why but I don't want to stray into opinions and hearsay, I want to try and inform those interested so that those who do come out here do so with their eyes wide open and not hoping for something that doesn't exist. I left my last company because i wanted A: double the money B: a big new airplane type C: a new adventure D: I was going to throttle someone as I'd been there too long and their general antics were driving me crazy E: I was sick of getting up at 4am. China southern have fulfilled all of the above and even though there have been some major upsets and set backs such as the Vancouver and Auckland rsps, our bosses have shown a willingness to negotiate everything and have upped the pay by 70gs over the four year contract span since I joined. My previous European employer, (I'll give you one guess) whom I have no ill will toward, spent the years I was there reducing my pay, making me work harder, bullying my colleagues and I, negotiation on anything was just a charade. A manager asked me once why I don't go to the 'roadshows' that they occasionally organised to spread the good news. I said that there was no point showing up, anything that they wanted to change they would change anyway and put on our internet portal, whatever they decided to pay me I would get paid and as regards leave I used to email them and say November, January, February or March, surprise me. The manager in question laughed and agreed with me. Here in China, they will listen, they will try their best just don't expect it all to go your way.
Right I'm off for a few Christmas drinks with my fellow crazy foreign captains. I hope this post wasn't too wandery and you guys can get something from it.
Many rants on pprune about agents, essentially your agent is there to sort out your paper work (no small task in China believe me) and bring you through the application process. After that of course they are technically there to sort out your contractual issues but be warned, and this was out of the mouth of the company lawyer, 'in China, relationship more important than contract'. So DO NOT come here unless you are comfortable with that. That's China guys. This place is wonderful and terrible, crazy as it is big and funny as it can be depressing. If you do come here you will earn huge money, make some great friends and experience a new culture. Things will go wrong sometimes sure but you can kiss fatigue goodbye and say hello to 20gs a month.
Some guys seem to fit in here and some don't, I do have my theories as to why but I don't want to stray into opinions and hearsay, I want to try and inform those interested so that those who do come out here do so with their eyes wide open and not hoping for something that doesn't exist. I left my last company because i wanted A: double the money B: a big new airplane type C: a new adventure D: I was going to throttle someone as I'd been there too long and their general antics were driving me crazy E: I was sick of getting up at 4am. China southern have fulfilled all of the above and even though there have been some major upsets and set backs such as the Vancouver and Auckland rsps, our bosses have shown a willingness to negotiate everything and have upped the pay by 70gs over the four year contract span since I joined. My previous European employer, (I'll give you one guess) whom I have no ill will toward, spent the years I was there reducing my pay, making me work harder, bullying my colleagues and I, negotiation on anything was just a charade. A manager asked me once why I don't go to the 'roadshows' that they occasionally organised to spread the good news. I said that there was no point showing up, anything that they wanted to change they would change anyway and put on our internet portal, whatever they decided to pay me I would get paid and as regards leave I used to email them and say November, January, February or March, surprise me. The manager in question laughed and agreed with me. Here in China, they will listen, they will try their best just don't expect it all to go your way.
Right I'm off for a few Christmas drinks with my fellow crazy foreign captains. I hope this post wasn't too wandery and you guys can get something from it.
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Go to work, brief, go to the jet. Discuss who will do the TO and LDG. Get airborne, snooze in the bunk, step out of cockpit if locals want to smoke. Have a 48 hour layover, eat, drink, fly back. Collect $20k, have 12 to 17 days off a month.
What's not to like?
If you feel you MUST be the one in control of the entire flight, probably not for you, but then how would you handle a flight as part of a heavy crew in any other operation if you were not the number one boss man?
If you are content with the numbers in your logbook, honest enough to admit that any lapse in standards is your own fault, and can get along with people, then it's a fine job. I guess that's why most of the successful candidates meet these criteria.
What's not to like?
If you feel you MUST be the one in control of the entire flight, probably not for you, but then how would you handle a flight as part of a heavy crew in any other operation if you were not the number one boss man?
If you are content with the numbers in your logbook, honest enough to admit that any lapse in standards is your own fault, and can get along with people, then it's a fine job. I guess that's why most of the successful candidates meet these criteria.
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From application to screening. 40 to 90 days. Normally 60 days.
Screening to CAAC check 3-4 weeks.
Class date within 60 days of CAAC check pending on season.
All in all, around 5-6 months.
Screening to CAAC check 3-4 weeks.
Class date within 60 days of CAAC check pending on season.
All in all, around 5-6 months.
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Think I'll wait until they offer direct entry instructor positions. NASA are also on my shortlist.
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Another good, accurate post by Biggus.
Very interesting info regarding the agency quota. It seems it is time to get some form of protection for the pilots from dodgy agents. At the moment we are at their mercy with no avenue to escape. I will bring this up with the bosses at the next opportunity.
I could not agree more that some pilots are suitable for China and some are not. Basically if you want to bring along baggage and change the way it is done here, don't bother coming. If you are willing to be flexible, relax and fit in a bit, you could spend many years here earning good cash. There are higher paying jobs in China now but they don't have the foreign pilot numbers. Your call if it's worth the risk.
Just heard today that the 330 fleet is looking for takers for a 330 base in Europe (CDG, AMS or FRA). It seems they seriously want more crew and will do what they are able to get them. Remember this is a huge airline and change takes time.
CSA have listened and taken action relatively quickly to many of the foreign pilot requests. I would say a lot faster than my previous companies. We need to remember that there are many more departments in CSA that need to be consulted as opposed to Western Airlines. What I still can't get my head around is the fact that SOC has more power than FLT OPS. For the non-initiated, this means that the scheduling dept will always overrule FLT OPS. A very strange situation.
Once again, good luck to those that take a serious look at CSA. Just be very wary of the earlier posts regarding agent choice. Choose correctly and you could be set till retirement. Make the wrong choice and you will regret it for as long as you stay at CSA.
Very interesting info regarding the agency quota. It seems it is time to get some form of protection for the pilots from dodgy agents. At the moment we are at their mercy with no avenue to escape. I will bring this up with the bosses at the next opportunity.
I could not agree more that some pilots are suitable for China and some are not. Basically if you want to bring along baggage and change the way it is done here, don't bother coming. If you are willing to be flexible, relax and fit in a bit, you could spend many years here earning good cash. There are higher paying jobs in China now but they don't have the foreign pilot numbers. Your call if it's worth the risk.
Just heard today that the 330 fleet is looking for takers for a 330 base in Europe (CDG, AMS or FRA). It seems they seriously want more crew and will do what they are able to get them. Remember this is a huge airline and change takes time.
CSA have listened and taken action relatively quickly to many of the foreign pilot requests. I would say a lot faster than my previous companies. We need to remember that there are many more departments in CSA that need to be consulted as opposed to Western Airlines. What I still can't get my head around is the fact that SOC has more power than FLT OPS. For the non-initiated, this means that the scheduling dept will always overrule FLT OPS. A very strange situation.
Once again, good luck to those that take a serious look at CSA. Just be very wary of the earlier posts regarding agent choice. Choose correctly and you could be set till retirement. Make the wrong choice and you will regret it for as long as you stay at CSA.
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What I still can't get my head around is the fact that SOC has more power than FLT OPS. For the non-initiated, this means that the scheduling dept will always overrule FLT OPS. A very strange situation.
Recently I had to send a communication to the company and I wanted to include the CP and the DO..., since they change every couple of years I had to ask one of the girls in the office who was at those positions these days.....
Flight ops seem happy to let the office minions run the show.