Skymark or China
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Skymark or China
Hey everyone. I have been in the left seat of an RJ in the US since the early 2000's and am looking to finally move on. I have been looking to join an asian carrier for short term(3 years)financial gain. I have been researching about skymark and some asian carriers. I am concerned about the backlash towards expats and don't want to go there only to be let go because of some weird political reason by the carrier. I'm interested in perspectives from other guys.
Thank you for your time.
Thank you for your time.
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Although I don't have any experience at either of those places, I am in Japan so can speak in regards to that. I feel that the Japanese are going to be more honorable in regards to your contract and your pay. It seems that there are many, many stories out there about Chinese carriers penalizing you for any little perceived violation. Whether real or not.
So just going on that I would go with Skymark. I do have several friends there and they seem happy.
Another option is Air Japan. It is a 5 year contract but you can get out early if you desire. They do hire rj guys. I was one at one time.
So just going on that I would go with Skymark. I do have several friends there and they seem happy.
Another option is Air Japan. It is a 5 year contract but you can get out early if you desire. They do hire rj guys. I was one at one time.
Last edited by jrmyl; 8th Mar 2014 at 00:19.
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Are there job offers on the table from both places? If there aren't, it is all academic......., right?
My point is, follow all options and go throught the interview process, that will give you a better sense of the place and if you get multiple job offers is when you have a choice to make.
Good luck....!
My point is, follow all options and go throught the interview process, that will give you a better sense of the place and if you get multiple job offers is when you have a choice to make.
Good luck....!
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You have several friends there that are happy at Skymark? Really?
I find that very hard to believe. At least, hard to believe that there is at least 1 happy person at Skymark that has been there over 6 months. People are quitting there left and right without even having another job to go to and several others have left to go back to the right seat of another airline than to put up with all the BS that places dishes out.
I find that very hard to believe. At least, hard to believe that there is at least 1 happy person at Skymark that has been there over 6 months. People are quitting there left and right without even having another job to go to and several others have left to go back to the right seat of another airline than to put up with all the BS that places dishes out.
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Type in "Skymark" on the Search Thread and you will find plenty of information on those twits. Typically guy's don't last longer than 3 years and that place is a revolving door for a good reason.
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I've been at skymark for almost two years. Yes, training (assimilate, cooperate, graduate) is difficult. The job (overnights) is kinda boring, and they're pretty cheap. The weather, I.e. winds and culture can be challenging. That goes with expat job. Those that are leaving have something "better" to go to. Many have been in Japan for many years and are ok with it. Some have no place to go for a variety of reason, and that includes screw ups.
I made US$20k last month. Sold my days off, resulting in 4. Flew 86.5 hours, should have been 94+ with "creative" flying. I will get a biz class ticket home for it too.
I am looking to come home, because there's no place like it....
I will say this is one of the better, if not he best, expat-commuting jobs out there if you can survive training. Japan is known for this. It's not a career position.
I made US$20k last month. Sold my days off, resulting in 4. Flew 86.5 hours, should have been 94+ with "creative" flying. I will get a biz class ticket home for it too.
I am looking to come home, because there's no place like it....
I will say this is one of the better, if not he best, expat-commuting jobs out there if you can survive training. Japan is known for this. It's not a career position.
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Best commuting job? Are you $#@*&# kidding me? They buy you the cheapest damn ticket they can find on expedia.com regardless on how many legs or how long it takes for you to get home.
It didn't used to be like this. In fact, it used to be one of the greatest perks of this $#%* job because you can pretty much choose your airline and flight home, or even go anywhere in the world as long as the cost was equal to or less than your home of record. You could even bank the tickets for your family or anyone else to use, but since the Ticket-Witch took over, it's turned into the worst commuting job I have ever had. These twits were having me go through China to come back home to the USA instead of putting me into a direct flight home to save a few bucks.
It didn't used to be like this. In fact, it used to be one of the greatest perks of this $#%* job because you can pretty much choose your airline and flight home, or even go anywhere in the world as long as the cost was equal to or less than your home of record. You could even bank the tickets for your family or anyone else to use, but since the Ticket-Witch took over, it's turned into the worst commuting job I have ever had. These twits were having me go through China to come back home to the USA instead of putting me into a direct flight home to save a few bucks.
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$20k is descent scratch, but like you pointed out, you had 4 days off resulting in 6 on 1 off all month. How many schedule changes did you get that month - at least 15, right? How many days did you get in your Tokyo apartment or Kobe apartment - Around 6 whopping days? Did you enjoy starting at 5am on Day 1 and finishing at 11:15pm on Day 6 and doing it all over again after your 1 day off? Did you enjoy eating your 7-11 bentos that the company provided? Did you enjoy your SDJ Smell Hotel/NGO Tokonome/NGS Chikan Inn/ISG? Did you enjoy being so tired after doing 10 hour duty days with a 1 hour to/from HND commute or 3 hours to/from NRT commute that all you could do is go to the Family Mart next to the hotel to eat because everything else was closed or too far away? Did you enjoy not being able to have a Starbucks coffee in the cockpit and not being able to ask the FA for a cup of coffee? Did you enjoy showing your licenses every day to the dispatchers to prove that you remembered to bring your license because the company doesn't trust you? Did you enjoy not being able to go take a piss during flight without having the FA sign a form stating that the remaining pilot put on his o2 mask and maintained outside watch for you to turn in at the end of your flight? Did you enjoy getting punished for FOQA's? Did you enjoy having an even harder recurrent check by some twit checker that forgot to turn on the bleeds for a flight? You also sacrificed 1 month of NOT going back home to see your family. I'm sure that your wife and kids appreciated all that money you are making instead of being with them. Sure you'll get a C-Class ticket the following month, but is seeing your family for 10 days (not including travel time) every 2 months worth it? I hope you remembered to save your boarding pass to turn in so you can get reimbursed for your ticket because they don't trust you. I think you'll learn that this life style is unsustainable and you will end up paying the price in one form or another. You sell your soul every time you sell your days off and continue to allow the company to treat it's pilots the way that it does because you help them out to cover the flying that otherwise couldn't be made. This is not the best commuting job and nor is it even close to being a descent job in Japan. BTW, this is clearly your first contract in Japan. So let me say that this job is the furthest thing from how the other contract jobs are in Japan. This company is not the norm. The management there hates pilots and considers them at the bottom of the totum-pole beneath every other person and position. This company is an embarassment and has brought great shame to the airline industry. Skymark is the laughing stock of all the other airlines in Japan for a good reason. I hope it works out for you before it's too late.
Last edited by blink; 8th Mar 2014 at 12:20.
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Blink, so where is there a better gig? China? India? Indonesia? UAE? KAL? Ethiopia? Where did go to? Where can you work in a 1st World country and go home every month, with resident tax status? I've compared notes with all my friends that are or have been in those places. I stand by my statement.
BTW. I buy my own tickets home and beat the allowance every time, except this time. I overpaid by US$100, but went non-stop. I'll get over it.
I don't eat bento. I bring fruit. I carry a thermos for coffee, and yeah, that's stupid. I usually eat out by myself. You think 10 hours duty is hard? I started my career 20 years ago wishing I could have an easy 10 hour duty day.
It isn't great, but this gig isn't that hard. The only other place hiring in Japan is Air Japan. It isn't really any better, in total. No expat commuting job is sustainable. I make that choice to commute. I don't have to. Most of what you complain about is minutiae.
The one issue you haven't brought up is that Skymark isn't making very much many, if any at all. Loads have been awful. The A330 is gonna be expensive, and the A380 is gonna bury the place.
BTW. I buy my own tickets home and beat the allowance every time, except this time. I overpaid by US$100, but went non-stop. I'll get over it.
I don't eat bento. I bring fruit. I carry a thermos for coffee, and yeah, that's stupid. I usually eat out by myself. You think 10 hours duty is hard? I started my career 20 years ago wishing I could have an easy 10 hour duty day.
It isn't great, but this gig isn't that hard. The only other place hiring in Japan is Air Japan. It isn't really any better, in total. No expat commuting job is sustainable. I make that choice to commute. I don't have to. Most of what you complain about is minutiae.
The one issue you haven't brought up is that Skymark isn't making very much many, if any at all. Loads have been awful. The A330 is gonna be expensive, and the A380 is gonna bury the place.
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The only other place hiring in Japan is Air Japan. It isn't really any better, in total.
Not bad mouthing Sky mind you, I have very good friends working there and they all say the same thing, it is what you make of it. If you ask me, I'd rather go to Sky (all things considered) than China, if anything just for the base! Japan is awesome
In Japan currently Peach, Air Japan, Vanilla Air, Jetstar A net, NCA are all actively hiring, but besides AJX, NCA and Sky..., the money is not much to write home about in the other gigs, that is why they are not getting applicants.
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As an ExPat with 4plus years in China I can give you my perspective. As an RJ Captain you have very little options in China. There is one or two RJ positions available and if you can get your foot in the door at Skymark and transition from the RJ to a 737 then I say go for it. China needs Captains with 500 hours on type in almost all cases. This is not a career choice. It is extremely difficult to pass all the recruiting hurdles in China with astronaut physicals that only get worse with time and age. Japan also has an extremely difficult medical but if you get through the first one there you normally can continue to pass. This is not so in China, they only continue to get harder to pass and high failure rates for guys approaching age 50 plus. Training, recurrent, line Checks, flying with all Chinese FOs and many with only 300 hours total time and the mountain of BS will continue to grind you down in China. If you want one of the highest paying 20K per month jobs then go ahead and try to make it here in China but in the end it will wear you down, down, down.
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Seems like working for Skymark or China is like choosing whether you want to lose an arm or a leg.
Skymark is a running 76% failure rate for Initial guy's. Not many RJ guy's are getting through.
And I would agree with Dom that Air Japan is way more stable and has a way better commuting policy than Skid.
Skymark is a running 76% failure rate for Initial guy's. Not many RJ guy's are getting through.
And I would agree with Dom that Air Japan is way more stable and has a way better commuting policy than Skid.
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Blink, I'm sorry your experience with Skymark is or was not what you had expected it to be.
I've got two friends who've been with Skymark since 2012. As one poster pointed out, it is what you make it, which is exactly what they do. They tell me the days can be long, but are not complicated. They have no desire to transition to A380 as they are in their golden years. The two of them brought their wives over to Japan, as their children are now adults. They take advantage of their time off by travelling around Asia, Australia, and New Zealand, and Japan.
Anyway, a bit of history. The three of us worked for the same carrier back in the US. In 1991 our company filed for bankruptcy. We took voluntary leave. My two friends went with JAL. No Whale time, I went elsewhere. They were with JAL until the plug was pulled with the parking of 747s. As being familiar with local customs and life styles, they were very happy to find employment in back in Japan. Many of their colleagues at Skymark were former expats with JAL.
We sadly watched from overseas as airlines back home disappeared, went bankrupt, cut pay by as much as 50%, terminated retirement plans, scaled back health benefits. A large number of our friends and colleagues have been were severely affected by the events that took place, at their respective carriers, especially after 9/11. Some have never recovered.
Terms and conditions were fatter when we began flying in foreign lands. We were fortunate to have enjoyed generous contracts, perks, housing, travel the world with our families in first class, save and invest a large chunk of our earnings for our retirement and families too. There is a difference in terms and conditions for expats. What would you expect from a glut of unemployed pilots seeking work. You all know about the theory of supply and demand.
China boasts the highest paying contracts abroad... but at a cost. Some of the highest abuse, contract violations without recourse, along with total abandonment from contracting agencies.
There are contracts out there and airlines out there worth working for. I work 6 to 8 weeks and take 3 weeks off with civilized travel between work and home. My pay is not as much as my friends at Skymark. My QOL is different from theirs. I never work more than 4 or 5 days. I have no less than 2 consecutive days off. On some of my days off, I go home, or have my better half meet me at a location for a holiday.
Bottom line Folks… the glamorous days of being the jet setting expat are long over. It is imperative that pilots seeking to be expats must be educated consumers. They must perform their due diligence. They have to conduct thorough research of reputable contracting agencies, and airlines. Can they live in certain locations round the world? Can they accept the local customs? Local customs blend in with the management style of the airline too. They don’t necessarily treat expats the same as natives. Remember the saying from the Wizard of Oz… “We’re no longer in Kansas Toto”. One has to be adaptable and have patience... dealing with foreign management styles, local laws, and customs, governmental agencies, medical exams, DGCAs, to name a few.
At the end of the day many are far better off at home, where there’s a Ruby Tuesday near the house where they can watch a hockey game on the big screen TV. However, have an open mind and enjoy the adventure, and make the life style as you wish.
Just my two bazookums worth.
I've got two friends who've been with Skymark since 2012. As one poster pointed out, it is what you make it, which is exactly what they do. They tell me the days can be long, but are not complicated. They have no desire to transition to A380 as they are in their golden years. The two of them brought their wives over to Japan, as their children are now adults. They take advantage of their time off by travelling around Asia, Australia, and New Zealand, and Japan.
Anyway, a bit of history. The three of us worked for the same carrier back in the US. In 1991 our company filed for bankruptcy. We took voluntary leave. My two friends went with JAL. No Whale time, I went elsewhere. They were with JAL until the plug was pulled with the parking of 747s. As being familiar with local customs and life styles, they were very happy to find employment in back in Japan. Many of their colleagues at Skymark were former expats with JAL.
We sadly watched from overseas as airlines back home disappeared, went bankrupt, cut pay by as much as 50%, terminated retirement plans, scaled back health benefits. A large number of our friends and colleagues have been were severely affected by the events that took place, at their respective carriers, especially after 9/11. Some have never recovered.
Terms and conditions were fatter when we began flying in foreign lands. We were fortunate to have enjoyed generous contracts, perks, housing, travel the world with our families in first class, save and invest a large chunk of our earnings for our retirement and families too. There is a difference in terms and conditions for expats. What would you expect from a glut of unemployed pilots seeking work. You all know about the theory of supply and demand.
China boasts the highest paying contracts abroad... but at a cost. Some of the highest abuse, contract violations without recourse, along with total abandonment from contracting agencies.
There are contracts out there and airlines out there worth working for. I work 6 to 8 weeks and take 3 weeks off with civilized travel between work and home. My pay is not as much as my friends at Skymark. My QOL is different from theirs. I never work more than 4 or 5 days. I have no less than 2 consecutive days off. On some of my days off, I go home, or have my better half meet me at a location for a holiday.
Bottom line Folks… the glamorous days of being the jet setting expat are long over. It is imperative that pilots seeking to be expats must be educated consumers. They must perform their due diligence. They have to conduct thorough research of reputable contracting agencies, and airlines. Can they live in certain locations round the world? Can they accept the local customs? Local customs blend in with the management style of the airline too. They don’t necessarily treat expats the same as natives. Remember the saying from the Wizard of Oz… “We’re no longer in Kansas Toto”. One has to be adaptable and have patience... dealing with foreign management styles, local laws, and customs, governmental agencies, medical exams, DGCAs, to name a few.
At the end of the day many are far better off at home, where there’s a Ruby Tuesday near the house where they can watch a hockey game on the big screen TV. However, have an open mind and enjoy the adventure, and make the life style as you wish.
Just my two bazookums worth.
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I wish more people would not only read your post but practice it as well. I think you nailed it on the head. I've been in the ME for 13 years and some of the newer pilots seem to ignore all the good advice.
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Just apply and see what your options are first.
Most people don't even get past the screenings so you may not even have a choice.
Don't try to make a decision until you know you have a choice.
Most people don't even get past the screenings so you may not even have a choice.
Don't try to make a decision until you know you have a choice.
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, I'm sorry your experience with Skymark is or was not what you had expected it to be.
Training was the worse I have ever endured, the training for the JCAB written was simply going over previous tests, no real knowledge required, same goes for the gouge taught by contractors for the radio theory and technical test.
Sim training was simply more of the same, simply rehearsing a scripted play that you act out for the JCAB inspector (thinking not allowed), always the same check ride each and every time from Haneda Intl., those that feel they actually accomplished something by completing the training must be delusional or simply had no back up plan.
I really enjoyed living in the country itself, but SKYMARK (at least the 737NG gig) was terrible, maybe the Airbus courses will be better.