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Life after Lion Air

Old 21st Nov 2013, 10:01
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To all the 'Mavericks' who think P2f is not wrong, let me ask you this. If Lion air/Sriwijaya were conducting proper interviews with proper selection processes with sim checks, interviews, medicals etc... would you get in without paying a single cent?

If you answer yes to the above question, then why are you throwing money away? Cos obviously you are a cut above the rest and have what it takes. So, there's no need to pay.

If you answer no to the above question, then you are obviously not good enough and need to improve and you are cheating the system to get in. Daddy's wallet bought you that seat, not your skill or attitude.

Either way, you lose respect by going down the P2f route. A man's true test of his character is how determined he is that he will stick to his principles in life regardless of the hardships. For those of you that do not understand this or can not comprehend this, you shouldn't even be near an aircraft. Why? Because when you get put under pressure by management and or unsafe captains, you are the type that will sit there with your tail between your legs, too scared to say something less you lose your beloved shiny jet job. In other words a P*ssy.
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Old 21st Nov 2013, 10:34
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Let's not dwell on whether it's the right way or the wrong way etc its "a way " for sure and a fair few ex=lion pilots have good jobs now, and I'm sure there families are very proud etc.


As for the hard work and correct attitude way, well I don't know of any airlines that took a pilot on because they had these qualities, all most of them care about are you flight hours these days, sure once you get invited to interview these qualities will give you an advantage.. sure.


Even if you have the hour requirements via instructing/bush flying etc that still does not fill the blank of the jet time required, a real catch 22 which will boggle new pilots for years to come.


I had a nice little job on the King Air out of Africa a few years ago, one day a chap came in to the office, said he had 50 hours on type and would work for food and water to get his hours up, I was let go a few weeks later and they took this guy on instead!!


point being this industry is full of corrupt injustice pain hurt frustration un-fairness, but the sheer love of flight keeps us coming back for more!! flying is a pure passion, I have never met a pilot that was not 100% committed to flying.


If you can get paid along the way it becomes the ultimate satisfaction!! as you will basically never "Work" again!! and believe me that's a nice feeling, especially if you have had the jobs I have had over the years, Kitchens, Taxis, parcel delivery!! no life man!
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Old 21st Nov 2013, 10:55
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Flyboy NZ.

Couldn't agree more, well said.
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Old 21st Nov 2013, 14:06
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The post by the Kiwi


Last edited by TheBigD; 21st Nov 2013 at 22:09.
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Old 21st Nov 2013, 18:13
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The pilots that joined Lion Air through the likes of MSD, EJ, CFA where all taken on before the 250 hour rule came in to affect. the LT contracts have been out of action for a good year now.


Lion are only taking on Indo nationals as cadet pilots.


I personally think this was a nice opportunity for the people that could afford to do it. aviation is such a hard industry to get that 1st foot in the door and I am sure this program granted a lot of peoples dreams to come true. surely that is a good thing, but as I have learnt along my career path pilots tend to be very selfish sods and god forbid something good happen to a fellow pilot, not the case with my thinking I wish everyone all the best in the skies, that's just my airmanship! as to how you got there, I don't care if your passing your OPC checks and working hard that's fine with me, lets build a safer skies together.


I remember the first time I flew a big jet and its a magical feeling.


As mentioned above the program stopped now so I don't know what all the ill feeling is about.
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Old 21st Nov 2013, 21:55
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I personally think this was a nice opportunity for the people that could afford to do it.

I have learnt along my career path pilots tend to be very selfish sods
Wow, talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Coming from a guy that paid to get ahead of the line call other pilots selfish sods. I hope your piloting skills are better than your reasoning skills........
I remember the first time I flew a big jet and its a magical feeling
I remember the first time I got to fly a jet and not only did I not have to pay for it; but I got paid for it. Magical feeling!!!

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Old 22nd Nov 2013, 04:39
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Look it depends on what point of view you are looking at this situation from, if you assume that they would have taken low hour pilots on then yes good for the pilots that get in.


I was merely stating that based on the facts that Lion had decided this was the way they wanted to recruit it was a good opportunity for those that could afford to get in. whether its the correct way, the right way etc is not the point I was making, the point I was making was that this was a good opportunity.


I personally prefer to fly the Jet rather than the smaller SEP, the King air was good fun, but I like the airline lifestyle that's just my opinion.


Certainly no going back for me now, it has been a long road!! I mean I don't want to boar people with my story but..


in 2003 I graduated with a CPL, MECIR but no ATPL theory credits
after that I took an Instructor rating and started working as a grade 3 instructor this was terrible, the school had far too many instructors and any full time students that actually flew on a regular basis the CFI or chief pilot would teach, I literally had 2-3 students that wanted to fly on weekends and either they would cancel on me at the last minute, the weather was bad or some other lame excuses, I was at that school 2 years and only made around 300 hours!!


Then in 2005 I went travelling in the hope of something better, my travels took me to Africa, after several months without a job finally by sheer luck one day I was offered a charter job on a C210, looking back this is where things really took off for me, I stayed with this company for almost 3 years and build some very good time and made lots of good friends, then came an opportunity to fly the B58 with a rival company, I took it with both hands and had another year flying MEP! then came the Big break when I went for a King Air C90 job, still in Africa this was a great job to have and I felt as if all the hard work, going without food, camping in tents was all worth it the first time I landed this beautiful airplane. however I was a victim of the race to the bottom when I fellow Aussie came to our base and offered his services free of charge, he had paid for his rating, paid for 50 hours of time in the states and now wanted to work for free to build time! I was let go a few weeks later.


However every cloud has it's silver lining and after literally thousands of applications to airlines I finally got a response! and interview and subsequent job offer on the B737-300, I have flown this type for 3 different airlines ever since varying from the -300 -500 and -400 types.


so in a nut shell that's my life over the last 10 years, but if an opportunity to bypass all the pain and suffering I went through to get to this 737 I would have taken it if I had the money, if I didn't someone else would have, and that is the value of money, I almost gave up a couple of times as I was just in some terrible conditions but I carried on and got my reward.


I'm sure there are some arseholes who have too much money in Lion that just buy there way through life, but I am referring to the passionate ones, the ones who work hard and study, these are the guys that I think have a great opportunity to go on and have a nice career.
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Old 22nd Nov 2013, 11:13
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I was merely stating that based on the facts that Lion had decided this was the way they wanted to recruit it was a good opportunity for those that could afford to get in. whether its the correct way, the right way etc is not the point I was making, the point I was making was that this was a good opportunity
Good opportunity, yes for sure in the short run. Have you thought of the long run on how p2f is gonna effect the entire industry. Instead of them paying us, we are paying them. How low can we go? But you're too short sighted for that because as long as your neck is above the water, who cares if everyone else is drowning. Little do you realise the entire ship is sinking.

in 2003 I graduated with a CPL, MECIR but no ATPL theory credits
after that I took an Instructor rating and started working as a grade 3 instructor this was terrible, the school had far too many instructors and any full time students that actually flew on a regular basis the CFI or chief pilot would teach, I literally had 2-3 students that wanted to fly on weekends and either they would cancel on me at the last minute, the weather was bad or some other lame excuses, I was at that school 2 years and only made around 300 hours!!
Mate, we have all been down that road. I did 10 hrs in my first month as an instructor. By end of the same year, I had clocked 500 hrs as an instructor and that too working in a small aero club that was against the big sausage factories and without any international students. Why did I do so well? Because for me, instructing wasn't just a mean to build hours for the airlines. I did it for the passion of flying and to teach it to other people. It came out naturally and I became very good at it. I did it for three years with almost 2000hrs, and I made sure the aero club got something in return for giving me the opportunity to work for them. Customer service goes a long way in any industry. I am still welcomed back by my old boss and I sure will when I retire from the airlines.

I am doing the turbo prop gig now and management on the side. Absolutely loving it. The airlines can wait. I will first repay this company for the opportunity they have given me to work for them and how? Improving their safety record, improving customer relationships and building a customer base. Yes, a pilot can actually do this. They did it in the old days when commercial aviation was new and the pilots were trying to win people over to fly instead of taking the ferry/ships. I enjoy interacting with my pax. I run bang on time ( the schedule). I have a perfect safety record. I have cancelled flights and yet the boss loves me, cos I will go out of my way to make sure that the pax are looked after. And this is in Indo, not New Zealand.

I have three resumes in front of me for three different airlines I can apply for. All in three different regions of the world on three different aircrafts, different cultures, languages. How awesome is that! Not one requires me to pay a single cent. Yet, I will give it all up just for a chance to fly turbo-props in Nepal.

Just last weekend, met a girl who's working in HR for one of the major airlines. She wants my resume and can get me an interview in two months time (I am gonna reward her for that). It's not a race. Life will be gone by the time you get there. And no, adjusting fuel management/cost index on a FMC is not an achievement. Even monkeys can do that. Only issue is they pay to do it these days.

fellow Aussie came to our base and offered his services free of charge, he had paid for his rating, paid for 50 hours of time in the states and now wanted to work for free to build time! I was let go a few weeks later.
So, you should step down to his level and pay for 100 hours and get your job back? Get over it, find another job and a company who will appreciate you. Although that is a two way street.

so in a nut shell that's my life over the last 10 years, but if an opportunity to bypass all the pain and suffering I went through to get to this 737 I would have taken it if I had the money, if I didn't someone else would have, and that is the value of money, I almost gave up a couple of times as I was just in some terrible conditions but I carried on and got my reward.
Pain and suffering yes in the short run. But those are the things that made you who you are today. No pain, no gain. I have had my share of trials and hardships, but life is going pretty smooth these days. But those dark moments has given me experience and maturity. Yet, I still have so much to learn. So many places to go, so many planes to fly. And heck, I am a pilot, dealing with sh!t with a smile is a natural habit for us.
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Old 22nd Nov 2013, 15:37
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MR Stalker sounds like CAPT T.
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Old 25th Nov 2013, 19:23
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http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far...2f-scheme.html

fair warning about the p2f gig....
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Old 25th Nov 2013, 19:30
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The P2Fers deserve no fair warning, as they are not playing fair by the books either like their professional counterparts do.
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Old 26th Nov 2013, 01:22
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Rishworth brings the industry just a little lower

Our beloved all time pilot job agency is now offering with Lion Air help of course Direct Entry Command for all those FO waiting for command, Salary, not much life non but if you have only 3000 hours 1000 jet you can become a Capt on our growing fleet only a 5 year commitment, quick quick limited space please apply now
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Old 26th Nov 2013, 04:11
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RISHWORTH AVIATION CONTRACT TERMS AND CONDITIONS B737NG COMMAND UPGRADE PROGRAM

The Opportunity Lion Air is seeking qualified and experienced B737NG rated First Officers to join them for a 5 year contract as part of a command upgrade program (the Program).

This is an exclusive arrangement offered only through Rishworth Aviation's crew leasing service where you will receive the support of Asia's largest crew leasing agency throughout your contract term.

Opportunities are limited under the Program and interest level is high. Only those candidates who possess the right skills and attitude will be selected to interview for and enter the Program. If you have an exceptional flying background and skills, and can make a long term commitment to the Airline we'd love to hear from you.

Monthly Payment: Figures quoted are net of Indonesian taxes, in USD and are based on 10 weeks on 2 weeks off duty roster. However, the first rotation will be completed on a 16 weeks on and 3 weeks off basis, to allow for progress with initial training and other start of contract formalities.

From the 1st day of arrival at base residence;

A Rate: US$3,100 per month (pro-rated for part month) for a maximum period of 26 weeks, or until checked to fly line operations as Pilot in Command (whichever is the earliest);


Thereafter:

B Rate: US$6,000 per month (pro-rated for part month) for a period of 24 months counted from either;

• The 27th week operating as First Officer: or

• The day after the candidate has being cleared to fly Line Operations as Pilot in Command.

C Rate: US$6,500 per month (pro-rated for part month) for a period of 36 months after completing 24 months of continuous service as a Pilot in Command.


Note: Any unpaid, extended service leave breaks shall not be counted towards the service calculation for purposes of time based service fee increases.

Bond: The Airline requires a bond of US$30,000 to join the Program (the Bond). The Bond may either be in the form of a bank guarantee or cash. Cash amounts are held by Rishworth with any interest payable at listed bank rates. Bank guarantees are required to be from an approved bank and be made in favour of Rishworth Aviation. Further details will be provided as necessary.

The Bond (cash) will be refunded or bank guarantee obligations cancelled in favour of the candidate due to; 1. Completion of the assignment period, being 5 years starting from being cleared to fly line operations as Pilot in Command; or 2. The assignment period being terminated early by the Airline without cause, or the DGCA failing to renew license validations. The Bond will be forfeited by the candidate if; 1. The assignment period is terminated before expiry of the 5 years by the candidate; or 2. The candidate's assignment period is terminated by the Airline for reasons including (but not limited to) failure to keep home country license valid, disciplinary reasons, failure to maintain appropriate standards etc.

In the event a candidate fails the upgrade training and does not continue with the Airline as a First Officer US$10,000 will be forfeited from the Bond by the candidate upon termination and upon completing all necessary exit procedures as required by the Airline. If the candidate agrees to stay on as a First Officer for a 12 month assignment period and terminates the assignment period before 12 months is completed, then the candidate will be required to repay US$10,000 from the Bond, and if no notice is given, or the notice period is less than required, repayment will be US$15,000.

Overtime: Overtime will be payable after completing 90 block hours per month. Only Pilots operating as Captain shall be eligible to receive overtime payments after being checked to fly line operations.

Minimum Requirements /Hours:

− 1,000 hours time on B737NG as First Officer;

− 4,000 hours total time;

− ICAO ATPL or ATP with unrestricted B737NG type rating;

− Valid Instrument rating (P1), or with P2, SIC, COP restrictions (see notes)

− Current Valid Class One Medical;

− Level 4 or higher ICAO English language level;

− Must be aged between 26 and 36 years of age at time of application.
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Old 26th Nov 2013, 05:08
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nostep:Rishworth brings the industry just a little lower

@nostep:Rishworth brings the industry just a little lower
Can you explain me your statement???
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Old 27th Nov 2013, 04:21
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Turb I agree 100% in what your saying its all true. I think he stays in level 6 with his dodgy friend i do full approaches, stuff what atc wants me to do William P because he's to scared to fly in the rain.
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Old 27th Nov 2013, 04:49
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I think MR..oops Master T. is talking in the third person now.. Silkysky.. I heard he started as a 1 stripe pilot..cadet and moved up to 4 stripes faster than a prostitue moving through a crowd of bules in BATS.

SilkySky if you are not Master T.. sorry to say that you aviation skills and knowledge are very bad.. or non existent if you are learning from him. Now I am scared to fly. read. B737 for dummies you learn more...

And what I heard of Uncle BOB P. he a crazy.. a few sandwich short of a picnic pilot.. a few bricks short of a council house... screaming at everyone from the ground (gnd staff) to air (ATC) . does full approaches, even when atc vector him to final in VMC. like to cruise at 5000ft from 30miles out...that why he is confined to Lvl 6.. loony toon tower..
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Old 27th Nov 2013, 05:58
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geees... what a grudge you are holding.
And No, I'm not Capt T.... I'm just a B driver that still enjoys putting this bird up in the air and appreciate it as much possible.
Pilots will always be victims to some circumstances because we are suckers to our job, its just a matter of each person tolerance level.

Non the less... after this speech. as i mentioned im new to this. Previously i submitted a post but didnt come up... I must have done something wrong.
I was wondering if anyone had any info on Silk Air. I came across pictures online of B737NG partially panted with their livery
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Old 27th Nov 2013, 08:07
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@nostep
PGP737 is called safety safety safety at the expensive of saving money, I will spell it to you, what major airlines give Command at 3000 hours? None I wonder why?
READ READ READ AGAIN... where do you see the 3.000 hours??? Thats lion req.
The minimum req. at rishworth is 4.000 hours !!!
I know a lot of good f/o's with more than that and they still fly at right seat.
So why not make a change at your life? IF you pass the sim ride and IF you are good they will upgrade you to captain... simple...
They have failed a lot of expats before so IF your are good enough you will survive.
My friends there tell my about DGCA is not happy with the expat upgrade.

As you are aware Lion Air is facing a shortage of Crew for many reasons, lack of pay is very high on the list if Lion Air upped there pay the same as China maybe things will be reversed but they have opted through Rishworth to try the cheap and nasty way, why we have to ask with this upgrade program the New Commander doesn't get paid the same as all other Commanders once passed his Line Check, do the Maths,
You are wrong. The local captain is paid around 3.300 USD plus per diem at present time. So if they offer 6.000 up to 6.500 USD its better money from the local contract at 39 mil IDR.
I don't say that money is a good salary for experienced captains but for a beginner sure is.

so good luck to the guys coming with min hours I think most will finish Line Training on the right or going home, as this part of world is known for its challenging flying and has no room for make believers.
You are correct on that. Already happen.
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Old 27th Nov 2013, 11:04
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PGP737, local contract of Rp 39 million is basic pay only I'm sure, so you add the flying allowance which is probably around Rp 400,000 per hour or so plus maybe a sector pay. Rishworth program doesn't mention anything about flying allowance or sector pay, only if you exceed 90 hrs per month which is quite a bit (only 1,050 hrs/yr allowed by Indonesian law, which is about 90 hrs per month if you deduct the annual leave and any sick days. So local pay could in fact be higher than the Rishworth program, which in my opinion is total rip-off with that non-pro-rated bond. Who in the right mind would go for that???
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Old 27th Nov 2013, 11:34
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Last time I check, flight pay still rp.125.000/hr (us$10) .Until u reach 1000hrs PiC and never get any warning letter, it become rp.175.000/hr (us$15).
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