Help needed regarding Chinese commuting
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Help needed regarding Chinese commuting
Hello,
I realize that a lot has already been written regarding China.
However...I am in a position that I might be obliged to look for a new company to fly for.
I am Capt. B737, currently flying only the EFIS.
As my wife does not want to move, I need to find a commutable job, where I will be away from home for a max 5 weeks...
Could you please give me any feedback on the following airlines, and their travel policy for Captains. I will need to fly back to Europe on my days OFF, and this in Business Class. ( on sby basis ok)
* Hainan Air
* Xiamen Airlines
* Shanghai Airlines
* Shenzhen Air
Which of these would suit me most, which of these are the friendliest for expats and have the most Western Operational and Safety culture?
Thanks,
Captaintcas
I realize that a lot has already been written regarding China.
However...I am in a position that I might be obliged to look for a new company to fly for.
I am Capt. B737, currently flying only the EFIS.
As my wife does not want to move, I need to find a commutable job, where I will be away from home for a max 5 weeks...
Could you please give me any feedback on the following airlines, and their travel policy for Captains. I will need to fly back to Europe on my days OFF, and this in Business Class. ( on sby basis ok)
* Hainan Air
* Xiamen Airlines
* Shanghai Airlines
* Shenzhen Air
Which of these would suit me most, which of these are the friendliest for expats and have the most Western Operational and Safety culture?
Thanks,
Captaintcas
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Check into Hainan. They have a commutable month on month off program for a decent salary. Just be sure you are based at a major hub. Keep in mind you probably will have to be there around six months straight in the beginning and won't be able to start your vacation cycle until after initial training which takes about 4-8 months.
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I've been on a commuting contract for the past 7 years and this is my opinion on the matter: being away for 4-6 weeks at a time and commuting in coach will NOT be sustainable on the long run, most likely your family life will suffer in the process, you will need a set of days off every month to be able to make it sustainable on the long run, right now the two best commuting jobs available anywhere in the market are Air Japan, Korean......! These two jobs will give you 12 to 13 days at home (depending on where you commute from and if you are able to leave the last day of duty) and the commute is in business class. 6 weeks on and 2 weeks off (even 4 weeks on won't do, unless you get 4 weeks off afterwards) will not work on the long run....!
Good luck
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Chinese Commuting
Hi Captaintcas,
there are plenty of possibilities and it is very important you find an airline which suits your standards, expectations and living style.
We as pilots are not all the same and some like it more relaxed, while some go for the money or the image of a carrier.
As you and some other mentioned Hainan Airlines, look up some post here in PPRUNE:
PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Worldwide > South Asia and the Far East 
Hainan interview
I also know that Air China is offering a pretty good deal with lots of commuting bases.
Definitely I would rather prefer Air China than China Southern, as the failure rate at China Southern is through the roof these day. Especially as they bait you with a B777 or B787 rating and most people fail. That's because they want you off the market for B737 jobs of their competitors.
FCOM-5
there are plenty of possibilities and it is very important you find an airline which suits your standards, expectations and living style.
We as pilots are not all the same and some like it more relaxed, while some go for the money or the image of a carrier.
As you and some other mentioned Hainan Airlines, look up some post here in PPRUNE:
PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Worldwide > South Asia and the Far East Hainan interview I also know that Air China is offering a pretty good deal with lots of commuting bases.
Definitely I would rather prefer Air China than China Southern, as the failure rate at China Southern is through the roof these day. Especially as they bait you with a B777 or B787 rating and most people fail. That's because they want you off the market for B737 jobs of their competitors.
FCOM-5
Last edited by FCOM-5; 9th Apr 2014 at 02:13.
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FCOM-5 is agressively pushing Hainan in every thread....
Although Hainan does offer one month on and one month off....be careful for caveats...often the airline requires you to complete recurrent training, medicals and visa renewals in China during your regular vacation schedule. The contracts change yearly and verbal promises are almost never honored.
One of the plus sides of commuting is you will rack up massive frequent flyer miles and can use those for upgrades, free positive space tickets during vacation, etc. Just pick a good airline and stick to them.
Although Hainan does offer one month on and one month off....be careful for caveats...often the airline requires you to complete recurrent training, medicals and visa renewals in China during your regular vacation schedule. The contracts change yearly and verbal promises are almost never honored.
One of the plus sides of commuting is you will rack up massive frequent flyer miles and can use those for upgrades, free positive space tickets during vacation, etc. Just pick a good airline and stick to them.
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It is true, that the general opinion in China, is that TRAINING is not part of the flight duty and totally ignored in regards to FDTL, planning, vacation, etc.
Most of the time you don't even see you training on your flight schedule and just receive an email about..."Dear Captain, you better attend seasonal training on Sunday from 08:00 - 16:00", which by the way is send on Friday afternoon around 16:30 as last action of the office person before he/she goes home for the weekend.
Followed by a phone call at 16:45, while she/he is sitting in the bus, why you haven't confirmed you attendance yet.
...as if I am online 24/7 just because it might be that there is an email I do understand out of the 20 Chinese mails coming in every day.
As I said, it is a total disrespect towards Training in general and as "you are not productive" this is obviously the way Chinese companies see training...."an expensive thing we have to do, because of the regulation we have to follow, but actually it is not required and we are all great pilots and do not need it".
But lets face also the fact, that there are changes. In some company earlier and in some companies later. Even the CAAC (Civil Aviation Authority of China) was publishing in their revision 02 of CAR-OPS121 (now we are at 04) the following:
[...at the very end of the regulation you find...]
A. NECESSITY
China’s public air transportation enterprises develop quickly since reform opening policy. But due to historical reasons, some original operations management regulations in China’s civil aviation are not complete and systematic and lack of a set of systematic flight standard operations management regulations, having larger differences from ICAO requirements in terms of well-organized and standardized of operations management. For an instance, we have not built the procedures and standards, according to ICAO requirement, for airlines operations certification and continuous supervision; airlines lack of Operations Specification and Operations Manual approved by the government; some concerned Manuals and documents used currently have not been examined and not approved strictly according to ICAO requirement, many aspects do not comply with international standards; training requirements for flight personnel, flight attendants and aircraft dispatchers are low; operational control is not well-organized, etc.. The existence of these problems largely affect flight safety level of China’s civil aviation and its competition status in the international aviation market.
B. ICAO has formulated a series of standards and actions, on the basis of summarizing worldwide aviation experiences, and issued in form of International Civil Aviation Convention Appendix, requiring each member country lays down its own intensive and detailed civil aviation laws and regulations, based on these standards and actions. We are a contracting party of international civil aviation convention, having duty to observe the requirement of international civil aviation convention, and adopting the requirements formulated by ICAO. At present, ICAO has formulated the Manual that is used to evaluate the ability of operations safety management of each government, evaluating each government to promote them carrying out International Civil Aviation Convention Appendix 6 and improve flight safety level of international civil aviation. Some countries have started and prepared for this kind of evaluation to those governments whose airlines flying in their countries. Hence, it will not only affect the improvement of our flight safety level, but also the international flight of airlines in our country provided we can not formulate and carry out the operations management regulation complying with ICAO standards as soon as possible.
C. Generally, formulating an operations management regulation complying with the ICAO standards is necessary to enhance operations management and improve flight safety level of our airlines, and guarantee our airlines entering into international market, at the same time to perform the obligation of International Civil Aviation Convention and increase our prestige worldwide.
As I said...things are changing and China is undergoing huge changes in many aspects, not only aviation. For those pilots, who seek an opportunity and who do not have stability in their countries, I personally think and stand 100% behind this statement, that it is safe enough to come to China and work here as a pilot and if the persons personality can adopt to the culture and he/she can make her points get across through some departments by working together with the others, instead of having "a selfish one-man-show", than things can work out pretty good here.
Oh...for got to mention in all the above, don't see the salary as a overcharged "salary"...look at it as "a small salary similar to the one other companies pay, topped up by a very large compensation for all the fxxx-up you have to suffer sometimes." :-)
FCOM-5
Most of the time you don't even see you training on your flight schedule and just receive an email about..."Dear Captain, you better attend seasonal training on Sunday from 08:00 - 16:00", which by the way is send on Friday afternoon around 16:30 as last action of the office person before he/she goes home for the weekend.
Followed by a phone call at 16:45, while she/he is sitting in the bus, why you haven't confirmed you attendance yet.
...as if I am online 24/7 just because it might be that there is an email I do understand out of the 20 Chinese mails coming in every day.
As I said, it is a total disrespect towards Training in general and as "you are not productive" this is obviously the way Chinese companies see training...."an expensive thing we have to do, because of the regulation we have to follow, but actually it is not required and we are all great pilots and do not need it".
But lets face also the fact, that there are changes. In some company earlier and in some companies later. Even the CAAC (Civil Aviation Authority of China) was publishing in their revision 02 of CAR-OPS121 (now we are at 04) the following:
[...at the very end of the regulation you find...]
A. NECESSITY
China’s public air transportation enterprises develop quickly since reform opening policy. But due to historical reasons, some original operations management regulations in China’s civil aviation are not complete and systematic and lack of a set of systematic flight standard operations management regulations, having larger differences from ICAO requirements in terms of well-organized and standardized of operations management. For an instance, we have not built the procedures and standards, according to ICAO requirement, for airlines operations certification and continuous supervision; airlines lack of Operations Specification and Operations Manual approved by the government; some concerned Manuals and documents used currently have not been examined and not approved strictly according to ICAO requirement, many aspects do not comply with international standards; training requirements for flight personnel, flight attendants and aircraft dispatchers are low; operational control is not well-organized, etc.. The existence of these problems largely affect flight safety level of China’s civil aviation and its competition status in the international aviation market.
B. ICAO has formulated a series of standards and actions, on the basis of summarizing worldwide aviation experiences, and issued in form of International Civil Aviation Convention Appendix, requiring each member country lays down its own intensive and detailed civil aviation laws and regulations, based on these standards and actions. We are a contracting party of international civil aviation convention, having duty to observe the requirement of international civil aviation convention, and adopting the requirements formulated by ICAO. At present, ICAO has formulated the Manual that is used to evaluate the ability of operations safety management of each government, evaluating each government to promote them carrying out International Civil Aviation Convention Appendix 6 and improve flight safety level of international civil aviation. Some countries have started and prepared for this kind of evaluation to those governments whose airlines flying in their countries. Hence, it will not only affect the improvement of our flight safety level, but also the international flight of airlines in our country provided we can not formulate and carry out the operations management regulation complying with ICAO standards as soon as possible.
C. Generally, formulating an operations management regulation complying with the ICAO standards is necessary to enhance operations management and improve flight safety level of our airlines, and guarantee our airlines entering into international market, at the same time to perform the obligation of International Civil Aviation Convention and increase our prestige worldwide.
As I said...things are changing and China is undergoing huge changes in many aspects, not only aviation. For those pilots, who seek an opportunity and who do not have stability in their countries, I personally think and stand 100% behind this statement, that it is safe enough to come to China and work here as a pilot and if the persons personality can adopt to the culture and he/she can make her points get across through some departments by working together with the others, instead of having "a selfish one-man-show", than things can work out pretty good here.
Oh...for got to mention in all the above, don't see the salary as a overcharged "salary"...look at it as "a small salary similar to the one other companies pay, topped up by a very large compensation for all the fxxx-up you have to suffer sometimes." :-)
FCOM-5
