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Rise! Unemployed pilots in India

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Rise! Unemployed pilots in India

Old 26th Jun 2013, 16:34
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
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Whyin the first place you go do a CPL without a job guarantee more so the airlines economic situation? Where was the research? If you did cpl taking a gamble of secring a job, well you lost. Just keep trying or forget about flying. Same like any other industry. Very sad that flying schools prey on young kids
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Old 26th Jun 2013, 21:41
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
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@ billboard

I think Johny Boy has answered most of your questions on my behalf, regarding rest I will definitely give my thoughts on it.

Again, Please do not expect the airlines to hire all the unemployed pilots at once. unemployment is the part and parcel of every industry. Even after 100 years from now,there would still be a good amount of unemployed pilots in the aviation industry. hired people are replaced by new struggling freshers.
you said 247 cpl were issued this year,do you know what is making these aspirants to leave for the flying?? they all know that the airlines are creating opportunities and things have gone better,they have a chance. they have opportunities here and there may be after type rating but they have. people are getting hired and new hordes with fresh cpl are getting into the queue making the number intact at 6000.

"demand and supply", mismatch is greater in this industry between these two as compared to the other fields. but one thing i am sure of is DEMAND and in this industry it will always be there. the problem is the supply which is huge. Again skilled and talented need not have to worry, they will be hired eventually.

But what is going to happen in a year or two? Instead of just plain CPL holders cribbing about unemployment, we will have a sizable number of type rated CPL holders cribbing about unemployment. The size of Indian aviation is just not big enough to absorb a "reasonable" percentage of the unemployed CPL holders with or without a type rating!
I'll wait to see whether you get a type rating or not in order to get a job and trust me as johny boy talked out if given easy access to finances,you will be first one to run after a rating with or without assurance from airlines.


I suspect we have different methods of estimating the number of FOs hired. I use the number of aircraft inducted by operators. You seem to use the number of recruitment exercises. The reason why i don't use the recruitment exercises is because it does not come from official sources and is generally only word of the mouth. Sometimes just rumors. The number of aircraft with different airlines in India can be verified from DGCA's website. Where can i go to find out the number of people hired by airlines?
so you mean the recruitment exercises are all eyewash?? Job advertisement on the website, applications, results of the written,interviews and sim checks, calls from the airlines and confirmation of recruitment from the selected people and company officials are all rumors and lack authenticity.
These are not the official sources ???? right???
forums discussions over the particular airline interviews and sim checks are all time pass??
So, In that case,I believe that you will definitely not believe the current jet airways 2013 opening too??
In order to confirm the vacancies and before you apply for the opening go to the DGCA office, confirm the induction of the aircraft's by the jet and then when you are completely assured,apply for the vacancy.

The last time Air India came up with a vacancy for non-TR guys was in April 2009. Jet came up with one in Aug 2010. They came up with a vacancy again in Feb 2011. The Feb 2011 recruitment exercise has STILL not been completed. Indigo has not recruited anyone in more than a year and same is perhaps() the case with Spicejet. Infact Indigo has a surplus of pilots.
You said you don't use the method of recruitment exercises to estimate anything and they all are rumors. well you used the same method above when you tried to prove your point and got into the debate of "reasonable number of people getting hired". you said you don't believe them,they all are rumors then why did you take the rumor method to prove your point.
You just contradicted yourself. I guess you are negative and confused.

Another thing, you seem to be talking about just the airlines. civil aviation includes charters, state government flying and corporate flying too. I don't think that you have worked enough on getting the facts correct regarding the induction of the aircraft's, you did your homework half. charter companies and corporate companies have inducted lots of aircraft's in the last 2-3 years. get the list from the dgca site, i am stating my facts on the basis of the authenticity of the information. They have created vacancies too for the unemployed pilots making the things better and creating job opportunities.
so, when I said things have gone better in the last 4 years, I was not wrong my dear friend.

Last edited by gambol; 26th Jun 2013 at 21:42.
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Old 27th Jun 2013, 03:49
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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but rest who have myopia or p!ssed filled brain won't relate with your views.
Either you are not Indian or aware of Indian aviation's current behavior or you are utterly pessimistic seeing TYPE rated pilots with bare minimum getting jobs over you and alike.
Don't kid yourself or others with blanket statements like this.If given opportunity with easy access to finances , you will be first one to run after a rating with or without assurance from airlines.
Making assumptions and getting personal is not going to help anyone, will it? I could very well assume that people who say that getting a type rating without a job guarantee is ok and that a "reasonable" number people have been hired in the last 4 years are:

1) unemployed CPL holders who have got a type rating or are looking to get one. They are just trying to justify their decision, not least to themselves, OR
2) representatives(owners, employees or agents) of flight schools or TRTOs trying to convince people that "if you are good, you will make it." Do one experiment, call a flight school agent and ask him whether you should take up flight training given the present state of employment. He is likely to tell you the same i.e. "if you are good, you will make it." The thing is, nobody thinks they are bad,incompetent or below-par.

I could assume any or all of that but i am not going to.

Rating is almost now a Standard for Airline's in India as per last few years recruitment stats.
And why is that? Because there is a huge surplus of CPL holders. If there was no surplus like back in 2006-08, would airlines be able to get enough suitable candidates from the type rated pool? In the same way, now that people are getting type ratings(without job guarantees), we could have a surplus of unemployed type rated CPL holders in a year or two!! What then? 500 hour line training programmes? Once again i would love to be proved wrong. I would be over-joyed if after two years or so, both Johny Boy and gambol tell me how wrong i was!! But for the time being i am going to stick to what i said.

so you mean the recruitment exercises are all eyewash??
Where did i say that? The problems with using recruitment exercises to estimate the number of people hired are:

1) Sometimes they have not been completed till date. Jet's Feb 2011 and Indigo's Mar 2012 and April 2013 recruitments are examples.
2) Sometimes different sources give different information like number of people hired. There is no way to independently verify the information you get from them. If i am going to give stats in my argument, i would use sources that can be verified independently by the reader. Is that not the ethical thing to do? Just because you want to believe something posted by an anonymous user on an online forum does not mean you can expect others to believe that too.

Even otherwise using the number of aircraft inducted is a better way to estimate the number of people airlines have hired or will hire in future. If they hire more than the required, you can expect them to slow down their recruitment in future and if they hire less than required, they will have to recruit more. Looks simple to me.

In the end of that para i asked, "Where can i go to find out the number of people hired by airlines?" Do you know? Please do share.

You said you don't use the method of recruitment exercises to estimate anything and they all are rumors. well you used the same method above when you tried to prove your point and got into the debate of "reasonable number of people getting hired". you said you don't believe them,they all are rumors then why did you take the rumor method to prove your point.
You just contradicted yourself. I guess you are negative and confused.
Read my post again i said "sometimes" they are rumors. Example, the rumors of Spice/Jugaad Jet coming up with vacancies in the month of May. How many of us heard/read that one? I do agree with some of your points but i request that you do not try to misquote me in an attempt to further your argument.

Anyways, you would see that in that argument i am only counting the non-TR vacancies. What i was trying to put across there was that vacancies for non-TRed guys have been very scarce and that recent vacancies have been mostly for TRed guys which points to the fact that there is a surplus of CPL holders and that things have NOT gone better in the last 4 years.

Recruitment is on hold due to KFA's experienced pilots.
Do you even know how many ex-KFA pilots are in Indigo or Jet or Spice right now ?
No i don't. Do you? Please do share. All i know is that 64 KFA aircraft were taken off the market when the company collapsed and as a result there are lesser opportunities in the market and thus things have NOT gone better in the last few years.

unemployment is the part and parcel of every industry.
Agree. All i am saying is that in this industry, unemployment is much higher than other industries.

Another thing, you seem to be talking about just the airlines. civil aviation includes charters, state government flying and corporate flying too.
I don't think that you have worked enough on getting the facts correct regarding the induction of the aircraft's, you did your homework half. charter companies and corporate companies have inducted lots of aircraft's in the last 2-3 years.
No they haven't. I won't call 20-30 aircraft a lot. The number of operators has increased by 15-20 in the last 2 years but in most cases they remain small with one or two aircraft each. BTW when did state governments start hiring fresh CPL holders. GA in India is even more pitiful than scheduled operations. Anyone who does not want to believe that can visit the offices of charter operators to find out the ground situation.
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Old 27th Jun 2013, 13:59
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Making assumptions and getting personal is not going to help anyone, will it? I could very well assume that people who say that getting a type rating without a job guarantee is ok and that a "reasonable" number people have been hired in the last 4 years are:
All i know is that 64 KFA aircraft were taken off the market when the company collapsed and as a result there are lesser opportunities in the market and thus things have NOT gone better in the last few years.
How old are you Billboard ? 18 or 20 or maybe 21.
All i can interpret b/w your last two post is that :
1.India has too many CPL holders but no job and this will remain same like till i get a job , why coz all idiots went for flying instead of doing other things as a result i / we are left with no opportunities.
2.I can't stand why idiots are getting rated on big boys and getting called for airlines checks irrespective of their individual skills , resulting of this i am / we are not getting called for exams knowing when i leave for rating i would have to fight along with idiots and donkey's.

You are talking about no number of CPL surplus of 2006-2008 but forgetting the state of those pilots who got CPL's in early 90's who waited more than a decade to get a job by 2007.Still people went for flying training and got jobs in early 2000's when there was only 3 airlines - IA / Jet / Sahara with combined fleet of no more than 60-70 planes.Forget AI as last time it took pilots was in 92-93.

Surplus started in 2007 end itself maybe you were not aware of it or you were busy dreaming glory of being behind shiny new jet.
Now as you have quoted 2006-2008 period , let me show you some light.

IA recruited more than 150 CPL holders from 2005 till 2007 Oct.They recruited 30+ 320 rated skippers in same period.
AI recruited 30 CPL holders in 2008 March/42 in April 2009.They recruited 100 cadets for AIX in 2006 and had 3-4 recruitments of 737 rated pilots from 2009-2012 in numbers of 30 or so plus batches from Igrua.
Spice had 150 cadets in 2006 and took more than 300 CPL pilots since 2007 August till last year.They took 737 exams 3-4 times with anything under 15 per batch since 2008 from back door/front door/toilet door/garbage door.
Indigo took 80 CPL holders till Nov 2007 , on first cum first basis.They started CAE program in 2008 March with initial 2 batch consisting of 20 cpl pilots in total which restarted again in 2010 March taking their CPL toll to 200+ pilots and then rated 320 pilots.
Jet always recruited pilots in systematic way since 2008 for Jetlite/Jet starting in march/july 2008.Then in 2010 august/feb2011.They had numerous 737/ATR recruitment's in between 2008 and 2012.
KFA had 800 + pilots till nov 2009 when exodus started.


Ask yourself when market has pilots with 1000+ hours 320/ATR , who will get preference first and why it makes sense for Airline to take them before fresh CPL's in or out of airline recruitment system ?
Still in doubt about why so many pilots are sitting idle then i have an offer for you - Cessna 208B Job with riders , want one ?
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Old 28th Jun 2013, 03:42
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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All i can interpret b/w your last two post is that :
Whatever you interpretations. I posted here only because i took exception to the "reasonable number of people getting hired" and "things gone better i last 4 years" kind of arguments posted by gambol.

Surplus started in 2007 end itself
So how have things gone better in last 4 years? I estimated a figure of 600 FOs for airlines in last 4 years.

There is no way to verify the details of the recruitments that you have written about but lets say i believe you. Now please do something for me.

Take a calculator, add the number of people you think were hired during all recruitments in the last 4 years only(after May 2009.) Then subtract the number of unemployed "pilots with 1000+ hours 320/ATR" that you think are there in the market. Let me know if the figure is significantly(>100) higher than 600. Thanks.

Then get the percentage of people employed using the number of CPLs issued after May 2009. Let me know if you think the percentage of employment is "reasonable." Thanks.

Once again, things have NOT gone better in the last 4 years. They have gone worse! That is all i am saying.

Cessna 208B Job with riders , want one ?
Please try not to advertisements these kind of things. There are people who would actually jump at these kind of offers. How many PMs did you get after posting that?

Oh, i missed something. Quoting gambol below:

people are getting hired and new hordes with fresh cpl are getting into the queue making the number intact at 6000.
Sorry to say but that is a lie. You mean to say that about 240 people were hired as FOs in the first 5 months of this year? Please enlighten me, which airlines have hired these people? The only recruitment that has been completed in 2013 till date was the Jet 737 type rated one. In my knowledge, about 15 were selected. Anybody who knows about any other recruitment is welcome to add to that number.

The number of 6000 is swelling everyday and is going to keep swelling. Why do people feel the need to lie? And to the extent that 15 becomes 240!! Once again, i am not going to assume who gambol works for.
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Old 28th Jun 2013, 09:09
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
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In India CPL stands for ' Come sell Papa's Livelihood'.
There are no jobs (except for those who are connected and those with a Bomb of cash to explode) .The rest is all crap.(that's colloquial for marketing)
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Old 28th Jun 2013, 10:28
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
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@ billboard

It seems like the concept of demand and supply is beyond your comprehension level and I suspect a weak intellect as you are strongly bonded to your vague notion of mass unemployment in Indian aviation industry.demand and supply will never come into balance in this industry, not even after 100 years. every other field is under huge competition, not everyone appearing for CAT can get into IIM's, not everyone appearing for UPSC exams can become IAS officers similarly not all the CPL holders can get into the airlines ( a good percentage are donkeys), just because they have a CPL doesn't entitle them to have a mandatory airline job,It was easy to get into a flight school because you did not have to prove your skills,aptitude and talent, its altogether a different story when you try to get into an airline unlike a flight school. and mind you aspirants appearing for CAT, UPSC and all that bunch are in Lakhs unlike CPL holders which is not a huge number, may be 5000-6000, may be less, and no one is sure of this number. what I am trying to say is you will find cut throat competition in every elite field where superior intellectual power,talent and aptitude are tested and required. so my dear boy, you cannot exclude unemployment and competition from such fields. you have to fight it out in order to reach your goal rather than complaining which you have been doing ever since you started debating with me. complaining is a sign of weak and submissive ones.They cry more and do less work, reaching no where. don't get into that category. I am sure you are much better.

AGAIN, DO NOT EXPECT EVERYONE TO GET INTO THE AIRLINES, NOT ALL OF THEM ARE WORTH AND DESERVING, I HOPE AFTER UNDERSTANDING THIS YOU WILL STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT the UNEMPLOYMENT.

Still after understanding these points or if you fail to understand what I have been talking out in my last 3 posts or if you get into the argument of unemployment,less jobs, things are bad and all those unconvincing constructs then definitely I will become certain and assured that you have a weak intellect and the concept of unemployment, competition, demand and supply are beyond your comprehension level. I will not waste my time over you by putting up the facts and making you understand.
As per your unconvincing points what I interpret is that you are asserting that things have gone worse in the context of pilot employment in Indian aviation industry, so if things have gone worse, will you please care to enlighten us by letting us know that if not this phase than when was the better phase in indian aviation industry than the current phase in the history of aviation industry??? may be 1990s and early 2000 ?????when no single job was available. right??? when cpl holders waited endlessly for years to even apply for the vacancies. Right now on an average we have vacancies every 3 months. correct me if I am wrong. Still you think that things have not improved????
Please elucidate by making things more clear and comprehensible.
Well,some of the people here have agreed with my point of view. Please convince others,billboard.


Regarding Non-scheduled opertors, your statement was

I won't call 20-30 aircraft a lot. The number of operators has increased by 15-20 in the last 2 years but in most cases they remain small with one or two aircraft each. BTW when did state governments start hiring fresh CPL holders. GA in India is even more pitiful than scheduled operations. Anyone who does not want to believe that can visit the offices of charter operators to find out the ground situation.
Get your facts right. its not 20-30 aircrafts. DGCA has issued permit to +90 aircrafts operated by Non-scheduled operators.Which is not bad,and has helped improving job prospects for pilots in india. whatever the amount is the bottomline is that they created jobs for the pilots..In order to confirm the authenticity of the information, please visit DGCA website. I do not beat around the bush unlike you and always come with facts on the basis of authentic information.

There is no way to verify the details of the recruitments that you have written about.
It seems like that you are residing in Antarctica or in pluto and not in india, Now don't tell me that the stats given by Johny boy are non-authentic and rumors and blah blah.not everyone is fooling around here with misleading facts.no one has all that time,its not a child play,billboard. I pity the half knowledge your mind holds regarding the current scenario about Indian aviation industry, because in order to confirm everything you have to confirm the induction of aircrafts for that particular airline from the dgca's site. how on earth will the induction of aircrafts will confirm the recruitment???? In order to confirm the recruitment news I would confirm the completion of a recruitment process, results etc. Seriously, I don't understand you boy,I don't.

More facts on things getting better and conditions improving.

IndiG
IndiGo got the nod from Aircraft Acquisition Committee (AAC) of the Civil Aviation Ministry to import more aircrafts.Last year, it had inducted 12 planes and also in the last year, the Aviation Ministry gave approval to IndiGo to induct 16 aircraft in the year 2013.
28 aircrafts in 2 years, and you still believe things have not gone better.
They have ordered 180 aircrafts in the year 2011 to be inducted over years. One can foresee the future with a hope.
Now don't tell me expansion plans have gone awry and blah blah. In the case of IndiGo, they have inducted what they had ordered.

Spice jet
Spice jet added as many as 29 aircraft over 2 and a half months from mid 2010,14 Boeings and 15 Bombardiers. its operations increased by 111 per cent during this period they got the delivery of the last three Q400 NextGen turboprop aircraft from Bombardier in the month of December 2012, and this completes the order for 15 Q400s.
If you had done your work enough in knowing the induction of the aircrafts, you would have known this. but you seemed to be having no idea about induction of Q400.
They conducted exams and the batch left in groups over a period for the Type rating at the Bombardier base, Toronto.
Similar process for the Boeing 737 recruitment too.

Jet Airways
Jet has inducted five new state-of-the-art ATR 72-600 series aircraft to its fleet in december 2012. We all know about the Boeing 737 induction plans and the authenticity of the induction.
Also they took the delivery of Airbus 330-300 aircraft in december 2012 too.

Still believe that things are worse and not getting better.

In which field will you find organisations conducting exams and giving a chance of employment to the aspirants every month ???( IndiGo)
On an average every three months we have a vacancy Type rated, non type rated, whatever the case may be, but we have. still you think things have not improved.

I think my argument is proven,The previous encapsulates my view. I rest my case.
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Old 28th Jun 2013, 11:19
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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CAT and UPSC aspirants don't shell out 50 Lakh you

Last edited by Capt Apache; 28th Jun 2013 at 11:21.
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Old 28th Jun 2013, 12:47
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
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@ apacheees

50 lakhs??? Apache,seems like you were economically robbed by your flight school, I did much better with my finances.
Apache, Listen you , Airlines hadn't or no one in this damn world had asked you or went after you to go out and bestow Lakhs on the flight schools, in order to fulfill your vague dream of becoming a pilot, it was you enwrapped with fake glory beforehand without knowing the consequences jumped into it.getting into flying without forseeing the future is not wrong,obviously everyone has the right to dream and work towards their goal. but yes, having no aptitude and skills and not able to make it there and still blaming others for your pity condition is definitely wrong. It was entirely your choice, no one can be held responsible or accountable for your decision. so please do not cry here over your finances. If you are capable enough or you have the so called CALIBRE then get into the airline on your merit and aptitude,stop complaining and crying over issues which are goddamn irrelevant.
Vacancies are here, if you are capable do it. here's the chance to recover your so called shelled out finances.I will wait to see, where do you land.
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Old 28th Jun 2013, 12:53
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
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I did my cpl in 2007-2009 till today am unemployed nearly 4 years after spending 30 plus lacs. I am suffering because my parents money is gone, I have no other job no income and gaining no respect from anyone due to the fact am just sitting doing nothing till today. My advice for anyone is pls don't go for this career unless ur extremely rich or have big connection otherwise you will suffer just like me, it's no good feeling at all. I regret spending all that money, instead if I spent that money on some good engineering college I would have been earning a decent income now. So all those middle class in India who dreaming to fly pls don't put yourself in a mess think before its too late, if you still got 30 lacs to spare spend it on a good college and get your degree be, MBA or something else at least you can find a job. I wish I never took this field, but now I ve started doing a degree on correspondence hope it will be a turning point for me and I can completely forget aviation
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Old 28th Jun 2013, 14:22
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Gambol
It is people like you who try to sell this vague dream to those who are gullible.
What merit BS are you talking about.You need connections and money in this business.
There are really bright and hard working kids out there who will never make it.And it matters.Because you end up exhausting all savings like the genlteman above.Other careers don't ruin your finances.I will say it again....Money and Connections !
You are also at the mercy of people who have vested interests in employing someone else at your expense.

Last edited by Capt Apache; 28th Jun 2013 at 14:23.
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Old 28th Jun 2013, 14:53
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
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apache

I do not deny the fact that one need connections and money in this business to get ahead in the game. These two have always worked in the favor of anyone who has possessed them. I have seen it myself so there is no denying about the fact. but yes, merit and talent get you job too. I choose to differ from anyone who thinks that bright and hard working will never make it in this industry. They had made it in the past, and they will make it in the future too. IndiGo recruitment is the prime example of it. Apart from the
in-house/ back door recruitment, there is a good percentage of meritorious people getting through the fair selection process. not sure about the influence vs fair selection ratio but both of them works.

As per your first statement, neither have I misguided anyone nor posted any misleading information which has tricked anyone. you seem to have some misconception, you can go though the posts if you wish too, but you will never find anything misleading or out of the line.

Last edited by gambol; 28th Jun 2013 at 14:56.
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Old 28th Jun 2013, 15:12
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Sorry for your situation VDAFF. As the saying goes..."Tuition comes at a high price.". And for your family it did. I hope you stick by them and provide for them and a make up their deficits for you to fulfill your dreams... you owe that to them.

In the past 3 1/2 years flying in India, I would say that there was very slight minority of F/Os who got in because their Father was either management or a pilot. I've got to say, they perform well above standard. No attitude, report early, eager to learn, and understand the importance of SOPs. Yes, they too had to pass the assessment too as everyone else. Was there a curve in their grades? Were they short listed? Topics for another thread.

The others got their jobs, not because they purchased 500 hours of right seat time, but because of their merits, and abilities.

The more Indians that acquire their CPLs, the more unemployed pilots there will be, until the pool dries up.
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Old 28th Jun 2013, 16:38
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
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How do you short list thousands of applicants for a handful of positions?
What criteria do you apply ?
How many worthy and deserving candidates have been superseded so far?

It is the risk quotient Im talking about (because of the money involved).This risk is negligible only for the wealthy and the powerful.The rest of us are playing a game of poker.

I couldn't agree more with the last line in the above post.

Last edited by Capt Apache; 28th Jun 2013 at 16:38.
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Old 29th Jun 2013, 05:05
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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I suspect a weak intellect as you are strongly bonded to your vague notion of mass unemployment in Indian aviation industry
Listen buddy, i think nobody cares about your assessment of my intellectual level. People can make their own assessments if required. So just spare us the time and stick to the actual argument. No need to get personal.

not everyone appearing for CAT can get into IIM's, not everyone appearing for UPSC exams can become IAS officers
1) To be eligible for those exams one needs a bachelors degree. How much does that cost. 5-6 lakhs? To be eligible for airline jobs one needs to spend 30 lakhs. Infact now that most of the vacancies are for TRed candidates, you need to spend at least 45 lakhs. Not to get the job but just to be eligible to apply! So risks are greater.

2) If you don't have a CAT score good enough for IIMs there are many other good colleges one can get into. If one cannot make it to IAS, one still has a shot at IPS, IRS, IAAS, allied services and State Civil Services. So in these exams its not a case of "everything or nothing." If you don't get the college or service of your choice, you will have a shot at achieving something less. If you have a CPL, its a case of "everything or nothing." You either get a job flying aircraft or you don't get anything out of it, career-wise.

3) If you try but fail at CAT(low per.) or UPSC, your preparation for these exams puts you in a good position for other competitive exams like Bank PO, government jobs, etc. Preparation for airline exams helping with other exams? Not so much.

4) You earlier posted that the unemployment rate in India is 9.9%. So number of aspirants for other fields maybe in lakhs but 90% of them do find jobs. Compare that with the percentage of CPL holders who manage to get jobs.

will you please care to enlighten us by letting us know that if not this phase than when was the better phase in indian aviation industry than the current phase
2006-2007 was a better time. Perhaps the only better time.

unlike CPL holders which is not a huge number, may be 5000-6000, may be less, and no one is sure of this number.
Come on, don't change the goal post now! Earlier you said the number is intact at 6000 and implied that 240 odd people have been hired since the beginning of this year.

In which field will you find organisations conducting exams and giving a chance of employment to the aspirants every month ???( IndiGo)
Whaaaat?!! Whats up gambol? I thought the only recruitment exercises conducted by Indigo since Feb 2012 were in Mar-Apr 2012 and April 2013(written only). Both these exercises remain incomplete with not a single person hired. Correct me if i am wrong.

Right now on an average we have vacancies every 3 months. correct me if I am wrong.
OK. Recruitments in my knowledge:

1) Jet Airways 737 Type Rated. Completed.
2) Indigo. Written exams held in 2nd week of April. Results not declared as yet. March 2012 recruitment still incomplete. Not a single fresher hired by Indigo after Feb 2012.
3) Jet Airways Non-Type Rated. Written exams not held yet. Feb 2011 recruitment still incomplete.

So for 2 out of the 3 vacancies, not a single person has been hired from the recruitment exercises held prior to the current vacancy! Any guesses when the new recruitments will be completed?

Quote:
I won't call 20-30 aircraft a lot. The number of operators has increased by 15-20 in the last 2 years but in most cases they remain small with one or two aircraft each. BTW when did state governments start hiring fresh CPL holders. GA in India is even more pitiful than scheduled operations. Anyone who does not want to believe that can visit the offices of charter operators to find out the ground situation.
Get your facts right. its not 20-30 aircrafts. DGCA has issued permit to +90 aircrafts operated by Non-scheduled operators.Which is not bad,and has helped improving job prospects for pilots in india. whatever the amount is the bottomline is that they created jobs for the pilots..In order to confirm the authenticity of the information, please visit DGCA website. I do not beat around the bush unlike you and always come with facts on the basis of authentic information.
There are 183 aeroplanes at present with non-scheduled operators in India. I don't think the fleet of non-scheduled operators has doubled in the past 2 years. I am providing a link from where you can verify the number of 183.

Search.asp.
Select "non-scheduled" and "aeroplane" then click "search."

Please give the source of your information that 90+ permits have been issued in past two years. Also let us know how many of these aircraft were actually inducted.

Spice jet added as many as 29 aircraft over 2 and a half years from mid 2010,14 Boeings and 15 Bombardiers. its operations increased by 111 per cent during this period they got the delivery of the last three Q400 NextGen turboprop aircraft from Bombardier in the month of December 2012, and this completes the order for 15 Q400s.
Last year, it had inducted 12 planes and also in the last year, the Aviation Ministry gave approval to IndiGo to induct 16 aircraft in the year 2013. 28 aircrafts in 2 years, and you still believe things have not gone better.
Jet Airways
Jet has inducted five new state-of-the-art ATR 72-600 series aircraft to its fleet in december 2012. We all know about the Boeing 737 induction plans and the authenticity of the induction.
Also they took the delivery of Airbus 330-300 aircraft in december 2012 too.

Still believe that things are worse and not getting better.
Yes, things have not gone better. Because 64 KFA aircraft were grounded in less than a year when the company collapsed in 2012. Don't forget to subtract that from the no. of aircraft that Jet, Indigo, Spicejet, etc. added. One also has to keep in mind that while all the inductions and groundings were happening, the number of CPL holders kept increasing.

They have ordered 180 aircrafts in the year 2011 to be inducted over years. One can foresee the future with a hope.
Now don't tell me expansion plans have gone awry and blah blah. In the case of IndiGo, they have inducted what they had ordered.
So aircraft deliveries were not deferred by airlines(except Indigo) in the post 2007 period? One cannot wish away the reality with "blah blah."

One needs to keep in mind that:

1) the 180 aircraft will be delivered over a period of 10 years from 2015 to 2025.

2) a good number of those 180 aircraft will be for replacement of older aircraft rather than for new additions to their fleet. The average fleet age of IndiGo's aircraft is 2.3 years. So on an average they replace their aircraft every 2.3 years. In 10 years the fleet will be replaced about 4 times. Net addition over 10 years =180/4 = 45. Their expansion plan does not look so impressive now, does it? And these are the expansion plans of the only airline in India that earns any profits!!! Rest are all running losses. Anyways, my own calculation is very crude but it does give you an idea of what i am trying to put across.

Information given can be verified from the link below.
IndiGo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
billboard is offline  
Old 29th Jun 2013, 14:36
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: ASIA
Posts: 12
All you gentlemen / ladies have only spoken about 2 sides of the same coin , but we have to accept the fact that in our country huge pay cheques have attracted people from a vast cross section of society, every body thinks that they deserve to choose a career path , and nothing wrong in it !!

But the problem comes when every one thinks that they deserve a job which is the actual problem , I have spoken to so many cpl holders in aviation seminars and meets and boy oh boy , what green picture that have in life about it , but now sadly reality is hitting them , all of us have taken risks accept the fact that risks may or may not pay.

We have to understand one thing which was told to me by a veteran pilot , aviation in India is a rich mans career , always was and always will be, and if you don't have money for it then you have no right to be in it (sadly I'd actually disagree, but if you look into it pragmatically , it does make sence ) , if you have spent your bags of cash for it then its your problem , one shouldn't have problem if any one is thinking of spending more cash to buy type rating or 500 hrs time on type ,every one wants to progress , if you can't it's not their problem, guys with no formal degree education are the worst hit in some ways coz they can't even change their career path temporarily also on a drop of a hat, to sustain them selves to pay back loans.

People will sympathise but will not have mercy , coz they will go ahead and do what they think will progress them above the rest,

When you have a right to choose then you also have the right to leave if you can't handle the pressure, by complaining nothing will happen ( suck it up) ,rich guys did it coz they have resources , it's just the way reality is.

Rich guys with talent and contacts have made it I agree , but I do know a lot of rich guys with their mommies and daddies in high places in government and/ or in aviation who are funnily frustrated like most if us , it's just a big cocktail of confusion.

If one has chosen progress over patience , (getting type rated rather than staying put ) its their own choice coz they have evaluated them selves in the market ( dosnt mean that they will get a job ) , its just made them readily available in the market.


And yes as gambol mentioned the supply and demand theory is actually to most obvious reality in our situation , it will always be like that, all an individual can do is wait or progress in some way or the other.

No point in contradicting one and another all it boils down yo one thing " if have the rubber then go burn it" if not then think of something else

"Play sports go to college become a lawyer carry a leather brief case , and forget aviation as a career , think , think and think , about how one can use his or her resources to make the best , be a thinker not a stinker " and try to prove a point that doing TR is bad or good , you know why you are doing this and the reasons should be best known to you only,not every one.
alphasieara is offline  
Old 29th Jun 2013, 17:10
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Moon
Posts: 271
All you folks are forgetting the mess created by KFA and to certain extent Deccan air for likes of new CPL holders in terms of getting job.
Believe me if it wasn't for KFA , half of you fighting to prove a point over others in this forum would be mighty busy filling up the logbooks with hours on shiny big jets.

Indigo was happy filling new CPL pilots to make money out of CAE programs same thing was going on in Jet before KFA mess did it in.In biz all that matters is profit over limited resources which our airline's is doing right now.
Plus 2008 financial crisis didn't either help any of our airline's.All those cargo operators too failed to provide any security even after initially taking pilots of various experience levels.

Aviation in India was always Rich Man's game and it will be.Everything in life will cost you irrespective of level or non level playing field.
Airlines didnt asked us to go for training to get jobs in their backyard , when they did asked those to go for training most of them got jobs just coz airlines asked them( kindly put off notion of KFA cadets from this ).
Inducting planes doesn't actually means more jobs as many new planes are meant to be replacements for older ones.So banking on plane orders is totally waste of future planning.

Aviation was/is/will always remain high beta market where uncertainty is more.Before going for training if a person had actually given a thought about various negative aspects of being a pilot in India then many would accept this " Hue n Cry " for jobs wouldn't not be in first place.Become pilot in 6 months and earn 24 lakhs is main reason why many without aviation background took plunge and are now finding it hard to survive without a job.
In life nothing comes with guarantee so why would any CPL holder think he deserves right to get a job over others ?


With limited number of recruitment , deserving candidates are finding jobs.Those with jacks and money are roaming or trolling without any success.Having pilot parents or relatives have NO meaning in today's world.
Son's and kin's of pilots are struggling hard even getting rated because they were never good in first place.


Adios !!
Johny Boy is offline  
Old 29th Jun 2013, 18:47
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: WORLD
Posts: 101
Too many Co-pilots in Asia. You have made drivers like hotcakes...
Lift a stone and go Co-pilots everywhere....
You have what you deserve....
NEWYEAR is offline  
Old 29th Jun 2013, 19:16
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: china
Age: 57
Posts: 324
Some of these Indian CPL threads crack me up. I thought young western pilots had an entitlement mentality, you guys could teach the class.

You want a nice, safe, secure, high paying job? Guess what? Me too!!!! LOL
You came to the wrong industry.

Welcome to the big leagues. Unfortunately few of you are qualified to even walk in the door.
USMCProbe is offline  
Old 30th Jun 2013, 01:02
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Domaine de la Romanee-Conti
Posts: 1,676
True USMC ... all these guys do is sit here and b!tch about numbers of big jets on order and numbers of FO jobs like they are calculating how long to get to the front of the queue ... not a single word about how can they get off their asses and get into the real world, get some hours and make themselves employable.

It's just sad and ridiculous reading this crap ... it's like if my little sister took singing lessons and now went crying to the government for a law change because she's not a pop star yet ... or sat around with her friends comparing notes about how many people got million dollar record contracts this year, as if that would in some way increase her chance of hitting the big time. Meanwhile every day she sat and waited, another 500 kids graduated from singing school and another 500 gave up in disgust and went back to work in the supermarket.

You can cut it as many different ways as you like guys, but at the end of the day it's the same problem, thousands of kids chasing the dream and only a tiny fraction of you will ever be successful, because that's all the market can absorb.

My advice to you all is stop even thinking about jet jobs in India for now, go and look all over the world for any opening you can find anywhere in any poxy single engine piston aircraft and get some time in it, EARN your right to sit in the big jets
Luke SkyToddler is offline  

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