Indonesia p2F for low timer is back!!!!

[eaglesnest1972]

Fatcheck

How did you get there?
Normal application through normal channels or got there through brokers like Avia or someone else?

are you a supergreen guy?

[prefly]

You can't apply direct to citilink as they won't reply to you . All the zero hour guys were hired via flygosh avia in ams

[captjns]

The most important part of the application process is presenting mommy and daddy's bank account details

[FactCheck_Indonesia]

"The most important part of the application process is presenting mommy and daddy's bank account details"

Oh, grow up.

Firstly, it was a multi-day, multi-tier assessment to get in (tests, interviews, sim).

Secondly, this may come as a shock to you, but I spent over three-and-a-half years working and saving money while I was looking for a flying job somewhere. In this market, there simply aren't any to be had if you don't have the hours. So I took the proceeds of nearly four years of 9-to-5 drudgery to do what I felt I had to do to ever get anywhere in aviation.

It's a good investment. We're getting paid from Day 1, with the normal salary anyone in the company would get. We have a full one-year contract, with a further one-year extension option. My investment is going to pay for itself within 9 months, and that's just in simple financial terms. That's not even counting the fact that I can finally begin some semblance of a career.

I don't like P2F either, but if you have a better suggestion of where to find a job in this market, then I would love to hear it. All the usual step-stone jobs are blocked by people who have been in them for years waiting for someone higher up the food chain to retire.

There simply aren't any opportunities out there for low timers. I did what I had to do, and I worked hard for it. Don't you dare judge me.

[aerokin]

Well said factcheck. It's so hard to find a genuine line training program nowadays and most don't even pay a single cent of salary during the the whole 500 hour process.

Hope you can update us if your airline is hiring again.

[pilotchute]

Update to the update

I have been informed now that the 250 rule can be got around if,

You already have a Indonesian licence and you have hours flying here for a commercial operator (just going to a local flying school and getting the licence doesn't work).

You have more than 1500 hours and have credits for all ATPL theory subjects for your home country licence.

You haven't signed a non competition agreement with you current employer.

Good luck.

[aerokin]

That is correct pilotchute and I just got the confirmation from Flygosh avvia that the 250 on type rule is still in effect and their last recruitment was late last year in Amsterdam.

Really hope that they will uplift the rule

[koji188]

Childish

The most important part of the application process is presenting mommy and daddy's bank account details

I've noticed most of your post around Pprune. Tbh i think you're such a bitter and childish person.

To be precise... those children who had mommies and daddies who eligible for the fleecing were chosen

The monkeys are bringing their mommy's and daddy's peanuts.

Rise of unemployed CPLs in India? You bet. Not because airlines are laying off, but flight schools are preying on children. Parents of these spoiled little brats pull on the shirt tails of Mommy and Daddy... "I wanna be an airline pilot".

If not perhaps Mommy and Daddy may reconsider spending that kind of money for their children so they can fly a real plane instead of Microsoft Flight Simulator.

As fastcheck mentioned earlier, not everyone uses "mommy and daddy" to be able to fly. A lot are working adults that has other jobs while waiting for a good opportunity to get into an airline. I did the same too, and fortunately for me the wait paid out and I got to fly. I myself had to fork up my hard earn savings to pay half of the rating and the other half sponsored by the company.

I've seen your posts across pprune a lot of times and i think its just bitter and childish to say such things. If there's nothing nice or helpful to contribute to this forum, don't bother typing on that keyboard at all.

[Danvv]

250 hrs on type in Indonesia gives you a job?

I meet the requirement.
Which airline is hiring on the 737 then?

[captjns]

Not bitter at all Koji188. I resent any individual who pays his or her way into the seat of a jet. theny did not earn the position they shorted the system. Take a poll of the pilots who worked their way up the ladder. I'll bet they have no respect for the P2Fers either.

I've posted detailing option of how to build hour legitimately, instructing, missionary work, airline cadet program. All it take is old fashion honest work. It will take longer than forking over $50,000 to get 500 hours of time, but the self respect factor is far greaterand rewarding.

[TheExpatPilot]

FactCheck_Indonesia, a warm welcome to the aviation industry for you. Now, for some Facts_RealWorld...

In this market, there simply aren't any to be had if you don't have the hours.

Really? Ok, so would you be willing to relocate to the back parts of Africa to get your first start? There is always a way no matter how hard it gets or how many responsibilities your have back home. You need to realise that this industry, like others, goes through peaks and troughs. Patience and persistence is essential if you're going to succeed here. Big sacrifices need to be made.

So I took the proceeds of nearly four years of 9-to-5 drudgery to do what I felt I had to do to ever get anywhere in aviation.

That's fantastic and great to see, but join the club. Try living in a shipping container in the desert starting off flying 1 hour a week working 2 or 3 other jobs to survive, or digging trenches on a working farm to only fly a handful of hours around the property per week. These situations are not unique. It took a lot of people I know 4+ years to get their first start on anything after flying school.

I don't like P2F either

All the usual step-stone jobs are blocked by people who have been in them for years waiting for someone higher up the food chain to retire.

You're missing the point. There is a tried and tested pathway in aviation that has worked for decades. Experienced pilots moving up the chain onto more complicated and high performance aircraft they can handle. By following the path you have chosen, you're not only leap frogging the system, but you're helping create a culture that is detrimental to our industry by compromising experience in the cockpit of sophisticated aircraft for personal gain. (And on a side note, not to mention peeved a lot of people off in the process that have worked much harder than you). The bigger picture MUST prevail. The fact you're getting paid helps your cause somewhat. If you were P2F AND working for free you would be helping to destroy world wide pilot terms and conditions, again for personal gain. However that's another can of worms.

There simply aren't any opportunities out there for low timers. I did what I had to do, and I worked hard for it. Don't you dare judge me.

Unfortunately some things aren't worth the risk, short term gain without looking at the bigger picture. You will be judged for taking this path. As a VERY small-worlded industry, be prepared to get used to it.

Happy landings everyone and keep safe!

[TheBigD]

Well said Captn and Expat.

CaptnJNS, ExpatPilot.
Thank you for being the voices of reason and explaining how P2F messes up the natural order in terms of pilot progression!!
But unfortunately, you are wasting your breath. I mean how dare you "judge them"............

[peepsmover1]

Accept What You Cannot Change & Possess the Wisdom To Know The Difference

What is it with all of this angst? How is P2F any different than abinitio training of Lufthansa, etc? The logic that one must pay his dues by slogging through the series of jobs, instructing, charter, cargo, piston, turboprop, etc, etc is clearly overstated. How is it that with only 200 hours of initial flight training that USAF fighter pilots are at the controls of the F-22 and A-10, or transport pilots flying the C-17, all flawlessly carrying out complex flight operations? Equally, you have these abinitio newbies that are jerking the gear on large jet transports and passing their check-rides and flying safely. Where is this wave of mishaps? Exactly, more rhetoric than reality. Truth be told, whether in military or civilian aviation low time pilots, are carrying out the most demanding flights safely.

Ultimately, there are a variety of ways to get into the big leagues and fly the big iron. Asian carriers do not have enough locals to feed their growth plans so they offer up these enticing opportunities. If Indonesia's 250 hr rule in type is now the norm, then that once good deal has evaporated. The Asian carriers rules reflect the dynamics of their growth. In order for non-Asians to move out there they offered zero hour opportunities. Of course the P2F scheme helped the middle men and it ensured their new hires stayed on long enough to pay off their training. As pilots we all have different needs and desires. Now with the revised rule, only a narrow pool of pilots are going to be able to get those jobs. I for one am out of that running.

Do I begrudge those who have done the P2F? No, why should I? They were in the right place at the right time and they had the funds, so what? Is it their fault they saved money or that Mummy paid for it? Get over it. There was no line to jump over, the airline made the offer and those who could accepted. Nevertheless, the pilots still had to qualify, so they got through training and are line qualified, good on them. Not every carrier offers P2F why is that? Because not many pilots have that kind of money to tap into and the big league carriers have enough competition to pick from.

The traditional model of gaining the right seat of a major carrier has always been challenged. Military pilots do not leave the service with a lot of flight time, yet they are valued candidates. Equally, P2F has been in some fashion around for awhile, so deal with it. Squawking about something you cannot change is a waste of both your emotional and mental energy.

Welcome to the vagaries of aviation: illogical actions, unfairness, furloughs, and crappy contracts. If you don't learn to deal with it now, you'll just become a bitter wannabe on PPRune. So suck it up, Buttercups and let's bring value added to the discussion, rather than some pathetic, "My porridge is too hot," or "Johnny' s Mummy has more money than my Daddy." Cheers.

[flyboy_nz]

peepsmover1, you Sir, are the very reason that civil pilots have no respect these days.

How is it that with only 200 hours of initial flight training that USAF fighter pilots are at the controls of the F-22 and A-10, or transport pilots flying the C-17, all flawlessly carrying out complex flight operations?

Last time I checked, you don't pay $50k to get into the USAF to fly those machines. Do you know how many people fail or get washed out before even starting BFM training?

The P2f system is unfair on everyone. If the P2f program did not exist, everyone would have a fair chance at applying for an airline. In this way, the not so good would actually fail the assessment. And let's not talk about the assessment MSD/Rishworth/Avia does. That's just a show and mockery of the entire industry. You could get a monkey to pass through that assessment provided his/her wallet was fat enough or had enough bananas. Look at places like Australia and NZ, the p2f would hugely and only benefit the Airline but at the expense of damaging an entire industry. But, it's seen as being unfair and unethical to pay for a job. The entire process of hiring people by fair means goes out the window.

enticing opportunities

Very enticing opportunity to dry your wallet or your's Daddys! Sitting in the right hand seat of a 737 and paying 50k just to operate the radio and serve coffee. Tell me this, if the P2f scheme tomorrow says you have to perform Fellaciao after paying the 50k to get the job, would you do it? I bet you would. Because it's a small requirement in regards to the big picture and that's how the industry is shaping out to be. Better do it first than before be in the back of the line right? Have some pride my friend in yourself and your flying skills.

Equally, P2F has been in some fashion around for awhile, so deal with it. Squawking about something you cannot change is a waste of both your emotional and mental energy.

No, it wouldn't change the system but I will walk with pride that I did not sell my soul by buying my dreams and crushing several others because I happen to have the required amount. I will go through the system and beating the competition fair and square. Guys like you are gonna be another notch in my belt when I retire and say, yeah they were those that paid, but I didn't have to

So suck it up, Buttercups and let's bring value added to the discussion, rather than some pathetic, "My porridge is too hot," or "Johnny' s Mummy has more money than my Daddy." Cheers

After you my good Sir!

[peepsmover1]

NZ's Porridge is Too Hot

NZ Buttercup,

The issue about the USAF was to point out that that low-time pilots can fly complex operations, who cares how many wash out---the government pays the tab you, twit.

Not every carrier in the world operates a P2F model, for obvious reasons, because it will not survive the competition. Your idiotic slippery slope logic makes about as much sense as herding sheep with sandals--I hear you Kiwis prefer boots with enough room for the hooves of your woolly dates. So unloosen your wadded up knickers, wind the clock, and recognize it for what it is.

To hold that P2F is unfair for everyone illuminates your pathetic small mind of entitlement. Nobody owes you anything. P2F works well for Indonesia carriers. For one, the employer gets a pilot who is fluent in English, is willing to fly for a short period of time while the carrier grows its own stable of pilots. Instead of hiring a more experienced pilot who once typed will readily bounce to a major airline. Got that? Are you sure you are a pilot? This is simple math here. Who cares what you think, you’re not the corporate officer of an Indonesian carrier, got that?

Besides, you don’t have what it takes to succeed, because you want to have all the details worked out so that you can still invest in real estate as you pursue your career in aviation? Wha? Those are your pearls of passivity, not mine. “Sell my soul,” Ha! You are the consummate drama queen. Exactly, you keep on believing that you are going to beat the competition, managing real estate and flying C-172's with "pride," especially now that the age of mandatory retirement for commercial pilots is age 65. At this rate the only whining you are going to hear from any cockpit is not the sound of jet engine, rather your voice as you watch an A320 taxi by that your buddy in Indonesia was hired into. Cool, huh?

Just maybe, just mayyybe you’ll get to the right seat by the time you are 50. Newsflash: Nobody keeps score, just bitter whiners like yourself, but you keep telling yourself that as you eventually hobble into the cockpit with pride, a cane, and a hearing aid. Cheers, NZ’s Buttercup

[TheExpatPilot]

peepsmover1...

You are missing the point entirely. It's amazing how many times this needs to be repeated.

The main issue is not the ability of an individual pilot, the issue is much much bigger than that. We're talking on an industry size scale here. You clearly aren't following what's happening and are a little out of touch with the real world.

The P2F movement will destroy the conditions of our industry. You won't feel it now, but let's see how you feel when your pay begins to start reducing year on year as you keep being undercut and your valued job becomes worthless.

The virus you helped to create (or supported) will ultimately contribute to your downfall. All of ours. This issue is much bigger than any one individual.

Good luck with your careers. We'll all see each other at the meal ticket booth in a decade or so. Thanks boys.

[flyboy_nz]

peepsmover1, your meek attempts to insult me by my country of origins only proves that you got easily offended by my post which proves my exact point. I am going to debate with you without calling any names or making comments about your nationality, in other words without steeping down to your level, and that my friend is an insult to you in itself, but for someone like you, take it as a compliment.

The issue about the USAF was to point out that that low-time pilots can fly complex operations, who cares how many wash out---the government pays the tab you, twit.

The question is not about experience and complex operations, it's about not paying to get the seat but earning it. And yes it matters how many wash out. The more that do, the more money has been wasted. That is the exact reason why military training requires a cadet to finish the training at the required minimums. To keep the costs down.

Not every carrier in the world operates a P2F model, for obvious reasons, because it will not survive the competition.

It is because it's illegal. If it wasn't, most carriers would do so. Hence you see more cadet schemes rising up with poor terms and conditions.

Nobody owes you anything

You are desperate enough to pay for it, you think you deserve it more and it's fair? And because you can afford it, you think you're better. Unfortunately not and this is why I think it's unfair for others who are better to not get that job.

For one, the employer gets a pilot who is fluent in English, is willing to fly for a short period of time while the carrier grows its own stable of pilots. Instead of hiring a more experienced pilot who once typed will readily bounce to a major airline.

If Indonesia really wanted, all pilots would be speaking Bahasa on the radio. Just look at the English speaking level of the ATC. English is not taught in most schools here. Yes, it does benefit the airline like I said so in my previous post. The Airline is only hiring locals because of the DGCA rules. The P2f has been a huge profit for the airlines hence more and more asian airlines are jumping on the bandwagon and more and more people as yourself and ready to lube up and bend over for that RHS. When the locals get on, I bet you they gonna be hired on worse terms with longer contracts, so the airlines still keep their costs down. Oh and guess who they are gonna replace? You my friend. Then you can cry about how you were unfairly failed on your sim check.

Who cares what you think, you’re not the corporate officer of an Indonesian carrier, got that?

In their dreams... actually, I have held a higher position than that but I have a job offer that most guys like you can only have wet dreams of with double the salary of an Indonesian carrier captain, tax free, accommodation and food provided and to really rub salt in the wounds, that was without an interview and I am just 29 Life is truly unfair. So, tell me why would I give up all that for 50k only to bummed in a RHS of a jet like yourself?

Oh yes, I would rather fly a C-172 than having to pay to fly a 737. Something which you will never understand, something your father should have taught you a long time ago, but I guess you're a spoilt brat who always held daddy's hand and been saved by his wallet? And I would still fly the 737 better than you my friend, I can assure you and a few will too! (I know you are one of the spanish clowns in Lion Air with P2f program, we hear plenty of stories from the senior Capts)

Remember high school? I am the guy that sleeps with the prom queen but because of your desperation, you pay for the sex with some random prostitute. End of the day according to you, p*ssy is p*ssy, haha, I hear you guys are the favourite scam happening with the X2 and the FA girls these days. Have a think about it, and let it settle down. Then you will realise why P2f is an insult to the industry.

RHS at 50? So what? I would have achieved more by that age that you would in a lifetime. Heck, I have already done so. The goal is not the jet job. Why would someone like me want a job that's been robbed of all it's glory with a huge pay cut. What do you earn again? $2000 a month for a 737 radio and flap operator. I earn five times that and I actually own a house thanks to the company I work for. While you stay in a crappy accommodation in Tamang Amrek or the slums in jakarta, no sight of LHS in the near future but all you are is just a temporary replacement till the locals come along. Working all year and getting a few days off while I work four weeks and get two off. You have worst conditions than the bluebird taxi drivers. A job where once people were called Aviators deserved to fly that seat but now being replaced by glorified bus drivers like you. At least a bus driver doesn't have to pay for his/her job.

I am gonna tell you something which you should have realised a long time ago, but you haven't for the obvious reasons. Sir E. Hillary climbed up Everest, not jump off a plane with a chute and landed on top. I doubt you will understand what I mean by that statement, I am sure it will fly overhead. But you will reply with some unintelligent comment about kiwis and sheep.

Run along now to your shiny jet, the capt needs more coffee...

[IXUXU]

+1
I´m with the kiwi boy

If somebody needs an explanation about how p2f schemes are harming the industry and everyone´s present and future T&Cs.....I would advise to get professional help asap and, of course, to consider a career change.

Now the good news:
If you guys are willing to pay for a job, instead being paid for doing the job...you don´t need a CPL or ATPL, actually I very much doubt you really need a job.

Just get a PPL and stay there.

[lingdee]

I think those who are already a pilot couldn't care less of those who wish to obtain their first break especially the first pilot job.

The misconception of p2f is to jump que and fly the big shiny jets is nonsense and that perception is very wrong.

Please show me any airline that accept CPL with 600 hours ( non citizen ) and get everything fully sponsored?

The real culprits are those pilots few years back who were given a free rating and subsequently ran away when they collect the hours causing us the future or rather current pilots to suffer.

I have send my cv to almost every airline and the minimum requirement is 500 hour on type and please tell me where can I collect those jet hours?

[IXUXU]

Why do you think all these airlines are asking for those 500 hours? even better Why the same airline that is asking for 500 hours doesn´t have a problem hiring you.... if you pay for it? think about.

The day no one support these p2f schemes some of those airlines will stop to ask for those 500 hours. Cause if they don´t, they won´t find enough pilots and the only place for their aircrafts will be the apron. Period.

Time, for the pilot community, to realize who has the real power to fix the rules.