No take off and landings for Lion Air F/O's?
My line training on the 737 many moons ago originally as an FO involved mainly four sector days with my invariably doing three of the landings. We have always shared the flying equally since then unless auto landing which I am required to do in low vis (but hardly counts towards handling skills).
However this enlightened approach is clearly not the norm in many parts of the world. But then again in the good old days it wasn't either. The FO put the gear up and shut up for the most part if we are to believe authoritative books like Trust me I'm the pilot about training in BEA or North Star over my shoulder describing the early days of TWA.
So really this is a return to how things were. From a management point of view there is a logic. The likelihood of your FO damaging an aircraft when regularly landing is somewhat higher than them not managing some sort of landing in the rare case of incapacitation. From a job enrichment and people development point of view it is of course a retrograde step.
However this enlightened approach is clearly not the norm in many parts of the world. But then again in the good old days it wasn't either. The FO put the gear up and shut up for the most part if we are to believe authoritative books like Trust me I'm the pilot about training in BEA or North Star over my shoulder describing the early days of TWA.
So really this is a return to how things were. From a management point of view there is a logic. The likelihood of your FO damaging an aircraft when regularly landing is somewhat higher than them not managing some sort of landing in the rare case of incapacitation. From a job enrichment and people development point of view it is of course a retrograde step.
To add fuel to the fire, it is my understanding that one mainland China operator using A330's has banned all take and landings by first officers until they have completed five years on the aircraft. They then switch to the A320 to get the hang of take off and landings and only then transfer back to the A330 and are allowed to have a go at a take off and landing during line flying.
Is that an Indonesian airline? As far as I know, only Lion Air has this ridiculous ruling. All other airlines in Indonesia operate as standard with Captains and First Officers sharing the roles of PF and PNF (or PM, whichever term you use in your company). In my view, if a pilot can not take off or land the aircraft he/she is flying, then he/she has not reached the standard required of an F/O and therefore shouldn't be in a control seat at all.
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If the FO doesn't have any chance to T/O or land the aircraft..... what difference will there be( in terms of the F/O handling ability) after sitting on the right seat for 5 years without any handling sectors?
you can't just learn handling by watching.
on rare occasions where the captain F*** up, will the FO notices it early enough? if the FO does notice the problem(no flare, short flare, long flare.., pilot incap at 50ft agl.. etc..etc..), does he know how to Take Over? even if he manages to perform a GA, can he bring the aircraft safely back on the ground?
you can't just learn handling by watching.
on rare occasions where the captain F*** up, will the FO notices it early enough? if the FO does notice the problem(no flare, short flare, long flare.., pilot incap at 50ft agl.. etc..etc..), does he know how to Take Over? even if he manages to perform a GA, can he bring the aircraft safely back on the ground?
Just to be clear I think it is a terrible idea. But the management line is you can save $X by putting cheap (effectively) pilot's assistants in the right hand seat. They can practice landing in the sim, which they have to do by law anyway. We will take the risk that they cannot manage an autoland in the rare case of incapacitation. The real risk of teaching them to land is eliminated (at least until they become captains).
This is very much going in the direction of O'Leary's desire for single pilot operation. Frankly if management thought they could automate us totally out of the cockpit, most of them would if it saved money. There are already plenty of SOs in big companies that are not allowed to handle the controls for landing (KLM long haul for example).
This is very much going in the direction of O'Leary's desire for single pilot operation. Frankly if management thought they could automate us totally out of the cockpit, most of them would if it saved money. There are already plenty of SOs in big companies that are not allowed to handle the controls for landing (KLM long haul for example).
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Isn't there a 90 day/3 take-off and landings rule to keep the rating valid on your licence? I can't imagine such a low cost outfit would put every F/O in the sim to give them their required landings.
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Isn't there a 90 day/3 take-off and landings rule to keep the rating valid on your licence?
121.439 Pilot Qualification: Recent Experience
(a) No certificate holder may use any person nor may any person serve as a required pilot flight crew member, unless within the preceding 90 days, that person has made at least three takeoffs and landings in the type airplane in which that person is to serve. The takeoffs and landings required by this paragraph may be performed in a visual simulator approved under Section 121.407 to include takeoff and landing maneuvers. In addition, any person who fails to make the three required takeoffs and landings within any consecutive 90 day period must re-establish recency of experience as provided in Paragraph (b) of this section.
the notice for it was not from DGCA..it came directly from mr. RK, Lion's CEO
Oh of course............he/she allowed P2F in the first place.
Methinks the regulator should be asking lots of hard questions here. Should, but probably won't.
