CSA China Southern!
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Anyone knows if the europeans bases are immediately available for NTR pilots, or just when you become full captain, which takes around 1,5 years.
From what i know they open a base once they have at least 8 guys for that base. No info on having to spend a certain time in CAN until you're eligible for a european base.
From what i know they open a base once they have at least 8 guys for that base. No info on having to spend a certain time in CAN until you're eligible for a european base.
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The description ELAC gave in #125 does not apply at CSA. It is a completely different system graded from A-D. Foreign Captains automatically enter at C which only limits who you can fly with as there is a similar but more graded FO scale. Basically you can not fly with a fresh FO. After one year on the line you are given another line check to upgrade to a D Captain. In most cases though you will not be able to let the FO land. This is a very simplified explanation but that is it in a nutshell. You will always be what you are calling a "Full" Captain here but generally you will never be the signing Captain, at very least until you finish a full year and move to the D scale.
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4holer
What time can the foriegn C captain log for purposes of building experience.
Is there any guidance on that.
I'm in final stages if screening CAAC check to go.
Still trying to learn as much as I can.
Cheers
What time can the foriegn C captain log for purposes of building experience.
Is there any guidance on that.
I'm in final stages if screening CAAC check to go.
Still trying to learn as much as I can.
Cheers
Join Date: Jun 2001
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In most cases though you will not be able to let the FO land. ... You will always be what you are calling a "Full" Captain here but generally you will never be the signing Captain, at very least until you finish a full year and move to the D scale.
Sounds pretty much the same as I described, except that at my employer a pilot arriving with a type rating will become a qualified PIC within about 3 months and will from then on generally be the PIC on almost all of his flights.
From recent discussions with others involved with CSA my understanding is that the expat Captain there is almost never the signing Captain (i.e the PIC of record) if there is a local Captain of equivalent status as a member of the crew. This I'm given to understand covers almost all long-haul operations and leaves the expat as the PIC only in the instance of domestic/regional flights. Are you are suggesting that when there are 2 C or D captains on board both are recording PIC time, or alternatively is it that the "signing Captain" is not in fact the PIC of record?
Being the 2nd captain may not a show stopper for those who already have significant type PIC time in their logbooks and are more concerned about salary & time off, but it's a very serious concern if one is considering a CCQ offer or complete change of type.
Regards,
ELAC
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Speaking from the 787 side as a C Captain you would never sign as it is a new fleet and Everyone is new on the airplane therefore the other Captain will almost definitely be an instructor. You will be the second Captain for the first year. I know on the 744 there are usually 2 foreign Captains on those flight and I am not sure how they figure out the PIC on record but I suspect they just alternate. Everyone I have talked to here in China that operate on a heavy crew split the PIC 50/50. On a 13 hour flight 1 PIC cannot log 13 hours of PIC time.
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As foreign Cpt you will always fly P2,ie the Chinese Cpt will always be P1 ,after 1 year you can do P1 check and fly domestic with 2 f/os.
Long Haul you always have 2 Cpts 2 F/os.
As P2 you log in column “flight time as pilot” the block time in “PIC” column your time in LH seat,
You need 3000 PIC jet hours to try at CSA so assuming you are one of the 20% or so to pass and you don’t need command time its no issue, if you need command time don’t go..
Long Haul you always have 2 Cpts 2 F/os.
As P2 you log in column “flight time as pilot” the block time in “PIC” column your time in LH seat,
You need 3000 PIC jet hours to try at CSA so assuming you are one of the 20% or so to pass and you don’t need command time its no issue, if you need command time don’t go..
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So when your in the flightdeck jumpseat or in the bunk your logging SIC and when when your in the LH seat your logging PIC time is that what your saying.
I have plenty of PIC on other types but obviously want to log time on the 87.
Cheers
WJP
I have plenty of PIC on other types but obviously want to log time on the 87.
Cheers
WJP
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Everyone I have talked to here in China that operate on a heavy crew split the PIC 50/50. On a 13 hour flight 1 PIC cannot log 13 hours of PIC time.
You may want to look into that a bit. Chinese CCAR's are modelled after the US FAR's which state:
FAR 1.1 Definitions
Pilot in command means the person who:
(1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight;
(2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight; and
(3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight.
FAR 61.51 Pilot logbooks.(1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight;
(2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight; and
(3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight.
(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.
In all of the air carrier operations I've been involved in, which now covers 5 different jurisdictions including China, the Pilot In Command has been designated prior to the flight in the dispatch flight release. Unless there is a provision within the carrier's approved operations specifications and/or a policy providing for such within the company's operations manual, it is not within the crew's discretion to transfer that authority and responsibility among themselves as they see fit. The designated PIC remains the PIC for the entirety of the flight in all but the most extreme circumstances (such as debilitating illness).(2) If rated to act as pilot in command of the aircraft, an airline transport pilot may log all flight time while acting as pilot in command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate.
With respect to who logs what, the PIC is entitled to log all flight time while acting as the PIC, regardless of the duration of the flight, or whether there are augmenting pilots as a part of the crew. Whether at the controls or resting the PIC retains the authority and responsibility over the aircraft, and that is what is being logged, not time spent physically at the controls. Aside from the specific circumstance of a pilot undergoing command training under the supervision of a qualified PIC, only the designated PIC is entitled to log the flight time as PIC time.
Now, some jurisdictions have come up with innovative ways of parsing the logging of flight time requirements in attempts to make end-runs around Flight Time and Duty regulations, but China isn't one of them (yet!)
Ultimately, you can put whatever you think your carrier will certify into your logbook if you want to, but don't be surprised if somewhere down the road you encounter other carriers with less permissive interpretations and an awareness of what the actual policies of your past Chinese carrier are. If that were to happen you may find yourself with some explaining to do, and possibly in need of a bottle of white out.
Cheers,
ELAC
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ELAC,
In reality, I am not sure really how FAA regulations pertain to China but you are correct with some expansion:
FAR Part 1 defines the pilot-in-command as follows: "Pilot-in-command means the person who:
1. Has the final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight;
2. Has been designated as pilot-in-command before or during the flight; and
3. Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight."
Part 91.3 expands those comments making it clear that anything that happens during the flight is the sole responsibility of the pilot-in-command.
According to the Federal Register there are only three ways a private or commercial pilot can properly log pilot-in-command time.
1. When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated.
2. When the pilot is sole occupant of the aircraft.
3. When the pilot is acting as pilot-in-command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the regulations under which the flight is conducted.
There is a difference between who is "Designated PIC" and who is "logging PIC" as the "PIC on record" can, under his authority and the agreement of the 2 PIC's, allow the other PIC to log the time as he is the sole manipulator of the controls of the aircraft. It is really not that unusual and common practice at Chinese carriers and in fact is what they require and instruct to be logged.
In reality, I am not sure really how FAA regulations pertain to China but you are correct with some expansion:
FAR Part 1 defines the pilot-in-command as follows: "Pilot-in-command means the person who:
1. Has the final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight;
2. Has been designated as pilot-in-command before or during the flight; and
3. Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight."
Part 91.3 expands those comments making it clear that anything that happens during the flight is the sole responsibility of the pilot-in-command.
According to the Federal Register there are only three ways a private or commercial pilot can properly log pilot-in-command time.
1. When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated.
2. When the pilot is sole occupant of the aircraft.
3. When the pilot is acting as pilot-in-command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the regulations under which the flight is conducted.
There is a difference between who is "Designated PIC" and who is "logging PIC" as the "PIC on record" can, under his authority and the agreement of the 2 PIC's, allow the other PIC to log the time as he is the sole manipulator of the controls of the aircraft. It is really not that unusual and common practice at Chinese carriers and in fact is what they require and instruct to be logged.
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There is a difference between who is "Designated PIC" and who is "logging PIC" as the "PIC on record" can, under his authority and the agreement of the 2 PIC's, allow the other PIC to log the time as he is the sole manipulator of the controls of the aircraft. It is really not that unusual and common practice at Chinese carriers and in fact is what they require and instruct to be logged.
We'll have to agree to disagree on this. I don't think that practice is anywhere near as common or accepted as you may think it is. Certainly it is not a practice that I've seen accepted at my carrier in China, or at the various carriers and jurisdictions that I've worked in prior to China.
I wish you good luck in explaining in your next interview how you were logging PIC whenever you were the sole manipulator of the flight controls (does that include pee breaks?) even though you were not the company's designated pilot in command.
Regards,
ELAC
Last edited by ELAC; 6th Feb 2014 at 03:58.
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Curious, you are saying the last 3 airlines I have been with are wrong?
Just saying.
Just saying.
I do know that a logbook filled with PIC time recorded on flights where somebody else was the designated Pilot In Command is not considered acceptable in most jurisdictions, and when discovered has cut short careers on a number of occasions.
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Listen you can debate all you want about how to log time but in the end it's up to the carrier you are applying for whether they accept your time. I for one would like to know how you could produce all the logbooks you signed in over the years?? Impossible I would think. Also, when was the last time anyone even looked at your logbook? I think your qualifications, ie. you come with 767, 777, 747 ratings, your performance in the sim is obviously that of someone who has occupied the left seat and the companies you come from vouch for your time then I am not sure what the argument is? I think most screenings weed out the majority of the "parker pen" pilots. I have been through many jurisdictions as well, including US, Middle East, China, Japan granted this my humble opinion only.
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If you think about going to China I suggest you consider it as a longer view not a short term gig to get hours on type,
For one your licence belongs to the operator so you cant change companies within China unless they release your licence or two years.
Also Chinese can,t or and don’t leave their employers so there is no facility for stamping log books and its unlikely or they may not provide you with a verification of hours letter.
If you are after hours on a new type eg 787,,takes maybe two years say from today if you got screened to get 500 hrs…what ya say..
By the time you get invited for a screening, go back a second time for any retest,(ATPL,medical or sim)wait your invitation letter and Z visa ,
Go again for your Caac check, then ground school, brain MRI,base training, observation flights ,line training ,then logging half the time long haul as PIC its 2 years untill you have 500 hours PIC if you screen this month.
The good news is China will need pilots forever if you can hang around and you can meet the challenges.
Depends where you want to go later, ELAC points may well prove right,
Try going to EK or KAL etc eg without all the documents…and stamps and P2 time...
For one your licence belongs to the operator so you cant change companies within China unless they release your licence or two years.
Also Chinese can,t or and don’t leave their employers so there is no facility for stamping log books and its unlikely or they may not provide you with a verification of hours letter.
If you are after hours on a new type eg 787,,takes maybe two years say from today if you got screened to get 500 hrs…what ya say..
By the time you get invited for a screening, go back a second time for any retest,(ATPL,medical or sim)wait your invitation letter and Z visa ,
Go again for your Caac check, then ground school, brain MRI,base training, observation flights ,line training ,then logging half the time long haul as PIC its 2 years untill you have 500 hours PIC if you screen this month.
The good news is China will need pilots forever if you can hang around and you can meet the challenges.
Depends where you want to go later, ELAC points may well prove right,
Try going to EK or KAL etc eg without all the documents…and stamps and P2 time...
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The argument, such as it is, is simply this:
CSA advertises that they are recruiting captains, and so they are, but evidently they are not recruiting captains that they intend to routinely designate as the Pilot In Command, but rather captains who will be assigned almost exclusively to relief captain duties, unless their ambition is to do a whole lot of domestic flying within China.
That is not the same gig as being hired to operate as the Pilot In Command, and those applying need to be clearly aware of that fact. Similarly, when someone comes along and says effectively, "No sweat. Even if you aren't the PIC of record you can still log all of your stick as PIC time.", those interested in the job ought to be very aware, and wary, of the rationale that underlies the logging of that time.
The only valid reference that I can find to what you're describing, at least in respect of the FARs, relates to a circumstance of two private pilots both logging time when it had been agreed in advance that one would be PIC and act as safety pilot, but that the other would concurrently be the "sole manipulator of the controls" while practising instrument flying. That's a very different situation from the typical airline operation of a heavy crew on a long haul flight where all 4 pilots (or at times 5 in our outfit) are likely to manipulate the controls at some point (and, in China, more often than one would like, at the same point!).
It isn't a matter of whether one can provide all the records to prove each entry in a logbook, or whether one can demonstrate the requisite skills in the sim. You can put whatever you like in there and if it is certified by the last carrier and accepted by the next perhaps you have no problem. But the operating assumption is that the logbook accurately reflects the position you held and the responsibilities and authorities that you exercised in the position. Handing over a logbook filled with PIC time, if you were only rarely the individual with command authority over the flights entered, is a questionable practice, and all the more so if one neglects to clarify the distinction with those making the hiring decision.
ELAC
CSA advertises that they are recruiting captains, and so they are, but evidently they are not recruiting captains that they intend to routinely designate as the Pilot In Command, but rather captains who will be assigned almost exclusively to relief captain duties, unless their ambition is to do a whole lot of domestic flying within China.
That is not the same gig as being hired to operate as the Pilot In Command, and those applying need to be clearly aware of that fact. Similarly, when someone comes along and says effectively, "No sweat. Even if you aren't the PIC of record you can still log all of your stick as PIC time.", those interested in the job ought to be very aware, and wary, of the rationale that underlies the logging of that time.
The only valid reference that I can find to what you're describing, at least in respect of the FARs, relates to a circumstance of two private pilots both logging time when it had been agreed in advance that one would be PIC and act as safety pilot, but that the other would concurrently be the "sole manipulator of the controls" while practising instrument flying. That's a very different situation from the typical airline operation of a heavy crew on a long haul flight where all 4 pilots (or at times 5 in our outfit) are likely to manipulate the controls at some point (and, in China, more often than one would like, at the same point!).
It isn't a matter of whether one can provide all the records to prove each entry in a logbook, or whether one can demonstrate the requisite skills in the sim. You can put whatever you like in there and if it is certified by the last carrier and accepted by the next perhaps you have no problem. But the operating assumption is that the logbook accurately reflects the position you held and the responsibilities and authorities that you exercised in the position. Handing over a logbook filled with PIC time, if you were only rarely the individual with command authority over the flights entered, is a questionable practice, and all the more so if one neglects to clarify the distinction with those making the hiring decision.
ELAC
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So assuming one was to get the opportunity to move to P1 from P2 does the 787 even fly domestically? Or does it only do long haul and thus you would never be P1.
What about the 777 is it also a domestic machine?
Regards
WJP
What about the 777 is it also a domestic machine?
Regards
WJP
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In the airline I fly in China, the company designates a PIC and a Cruise Captain before operation of long flights with augmented crews.
Then we log actual time considering left seat time as PIC time and it is up to the company designated PIC how much he allows the Cruise Captain to fly left seat and therefore log as PIC. This information is then passed and stored in the airline's records.
Then we log actual time considering left seat time as PIC time and it is up to the company designated PIC how much he allows the Cruise Captain to fly left seat and therefore log as PIC. This information is then passed and stored in the airline's records.