CSA China Southern!
Join Date: Mar 1999
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HSA.
You could not be further from the truth. The foreign guys presently in CS do not have any regrets.
You could not be further from the truth. The foreign guys presently in CS do not have any regrets.
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Logging the hours is the least concern for me.. even if you log half the time it will still add up slowly.
Im more interested in schedule and being there for the long term.
777newbie please drop me a PM.
Best Regards
WJP
Im more interested in schedule and being there for the long term.
777newbie please drop me a PM.
Best Regards
WJP
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: East of the Sun & West of the Moon
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Although i don't work for CSA, I have been working for one of the other major carriers for 5 years and can offer an explanation of how the Chinese system of Capt. grades works there.
There are 3 main grades of Capt., in our company they are called M, J and A. The A grade is divided into sub-grades A1 and A2.
The M grade is assigned to trainees entering the fleet, regardless of past experience. This applies to all pilots and lasts until sufficient training checks are completed. Generally about 1-2 months if type rated, 6 months otherwise. An M captain can only fly in the left seat and do T/O's and LDG's with a training Capt. along in the right. He is never the PIC.
The J grade is assigned to a "junior" captain having passed all line checks. Again this grade is applied to all captains (Chinese or expat) regardless of previous experience (i.e even a senior training capt on one fleet will have to be a J for period of time when he changes fleet). A J captain has very limited PIC qualifications, generally only to do domestic flights where only 1 capt. is assigned [A colleague has reminded me that J's are no longer authorized to be domestic PICs, this now requires an A1 grade]. On international flights there are always 2 capt.s assigned, at least one of which is an A capt. or trainer. The A capt./trainer is always the PIC. The Chinese J capts may be logging some form of Capt/PICus time in their logbooks, but it would not be considered PIC time under normal conventions. J captains get upgraded to A captains at the discretion of the fleet management. Typically the minimum time required for pilots without previous type experience is 12-18 months with at least 3 recurrent sim sessions now required, or so I'm told. For type rated guys it is usually done in 1-3 months.
The A grade is applied to line captains who are normally PICs on all flights except when working with a training captain. The only difference between an A1 and A2 appears to be time served at the grade level, though an A2 will always be the PIC if paired with an A1 captain. On occasion two A2 captains are paired together. Usually the expat A2 is the PIC as typically in such cases the Chinese A2 does not have a suitable language qualification to be the PIC for international flights.
Bottom line, if you are type rated you will progress to A captain fairly quickly as that is the position they have hired you to fill. If you are non-type rated you will be expected to progress through the same hoops and at the same rate (or slower) as the local captains joining the fleet with essentially the same previous qualifications. Based on the experience of NTR joiners so far I'd suggest planning on 2 years before an upgrade to A status and routine designation as PIC is possible. So far nobody's done it in our outfit and some of the NTR guys are 18 months on the job.
As mentioned above, i don't work for CSA but my suspicion is that the guts of their system is the same as ours and generally in line with what CAAC expects from the major carriers. Possibly the domestic & cargo carriers with less international exposure have simpler systems.
In any event, good luck to all who wish to give it try, but heed the warnings of those who've already been and done ... not all will be as rosy as it might appear and the value of hours logged as anything less than the designated PIC for the flight may be dubious when considered by other carriers in other jurisdictions.
Caveat Emptor.
ELAC
Edited to clarify that J Capt.'s are no longer authorized as domestic PICs
There are 3 main grades of Capt., in our company they are called M, J and A. The A grade is divided into sub-grades A1 and A2.
The M grade is assigned to trainees entering the fleet, regardless of past experience. This applies to all pilots and lasts until sufficient training checks are completed. Generally about 1-2 months if type rated, 6 months otherwise. An M captain can only fly in the left seat and do T/O's and LDG's with a training Capt. along in the right. He is never the PIC.
The J grade is assigned to a "junior" captain having passed all line checks. Again this grade is applied to all captains (Chinese or expat) regardless of previous experience (i.e even a senior training capt on one fleet will have to be a J for period of time when he changes fleet). A J captain has very limited PIC qualifications, generally only to do domestic flights where only 1 capt. is assigned [A colleague has reminded me that J's are no longer authorized to be domestic PICs, this now requires an A1 grade]. On international flights there are always 2 capt.s assigned, at least one of which is an A capt. or trainer. The A capt./trainer is always the PIC. The Chinese J capts may be logging some form of Capt/PICus time in their logbooks, but it would not be considered PIC time under normal conventions. J captains get upgraded to A captains at the discretion of the fleet management. Typically the minimum time required for pilots without previous type experience is 12-18 months with at least 3 recurrent sim sessions now required, or so I'm told. For type rated guys it is usually done in 1-3 months.
The A grade is applied to line captains who are normally PICs on all flights except when working with a training captain. The only difference between an A1 and A2 appears to be time served at the grade level, though an A2 will always be the PIC if paired with an A1 captain. On occasion two A2 captains are paired together. Usually the expat A2 is the PIC as typically in such cases the Chinese A2 does not have a suitable language qualification to be the PIC for international flights.
Bottom line, if you are type rated you will progress to A captain fairly quickly as that is the position they have hired you to fill. If you are non-type rated you will be expected to progress through the same hoops and at the same rate (or slower) as the local captains joining the fleet with essentially the same previous qualifications. Based on the experience of NTR joiners so far I'd suggest planning on 2 years before an upgrade to A status and routine designation as PIC is possible. So far nobody's done it in our outfit and some of the NTR guys are 18 months on the job.
As mentioned above, i don't work for CSA but my suspicion is that the guts of their system is the same as ours and generally in line with what CAAC expects from the major carriers. Possibly the domestic & cargo carriers with less international exposure have simpler systems.
In any event, good luck to all who wish to give it try, but heed the warnings of those who've already been and done ... not all will be as rosy as it might appear and the value of hours logged as anything less than the designated PIC for the flight may be dubious when considered by other carriers in other jurisdictions.
Caveat Emptor.
ELAC
Edited to clarify that J Capt.'s are no longer authorized as domestic PICs
Last edited by ELAC; 4th Dec 2013 at 19:11.
Join Date: Dec 2004
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That has to be by far the best explanation I have ever read about wide-body Captain progression in China. Thanks a million ELAC for the detailed presentation. 
That makes sense to me and I think CSA probably uses a similar road: a few months of line training with a line training captain, and then about 12-18 months as part of a double crew paired up with a senior Captain until the company is comfortable enough to qualify you as A level and be the designated PIC.
The total investment until fully released as designated PIC is about 2 years, which matches the bond.
In my opinion, not a bad transition for a narrow body captain like myself and some other NTR's wanting to upgrade to long haul OPS, since we are getting paid full CPT coinage from the beginning and already flying from the left seat as CPT's. Obviously not logging full PIC as most other jurisdictions / operators understand it, but Captain time at least and learning the new ball game the right way in what seems to be a good contract, from what's being said from CPT's already flying for CSA.
That makes sense to me and I think CSA probably uses a similar road: a few months of line training with a line training captain, and then about 12-18 months as part of a double crew paired up with a senior Captain until the company is comfortable enough to qualify you as A level and be the designated PIC.
The total investment until fully released as designated PIC is about 2 years, which matches the bond.
In my opinion, not a bad transition for a narrow body captain like myself and some other NTR's wanting to upgrade to long haul OPS, since we are getting paid full CPT coinage from the beginning and already flying from the left seat as CPT's. Obviously not logging full PIC as most other jurisdictions / operators understand it, but Captain time at least and learning the new ball game the right way in what seems to be a good contract, from what's being said from CPT's already flying for CSA.
An accurate description of the system at another major Prc carrier by Elac. Foreign Captains have worked here for seven years, Ntr crews for 18 months or so. Caveat Emptor should also be read as 'you are moving into uncharted territory' for the Ntr crw.
Our Ntr cew that have made enquiries about moving on have found the Chinese type rating & lack of real Pic experience to be something of a hurdle when approaching non-Prc airlines
As posted previously, think carefully about the following-
1) The 2 years you will spend out of the 'real' left seat
2) Losing currency on your previous type
3) Medical jeopardy.
Still an ok deal for type rated pilots but a real leap of faith for Ntr applicants.
Long term & Prc contract flying should not be used in the same sentence.
Our Ntr cew that have made enquiries about moving on have found the Chinese type rating & lack of real Pic experience to be something of a hurdle when approaching non-Prc airlines
As posted previously, think carefully about the following-
1) The 2 years you will spend out of the 'real' left seat
2) Losing currency on your previous type
3) Medical jeopardy.
Still an ok deal for type rated pilots but a real leap of faith for Ntr applicants.
Long term & Prc contract flying should not be used in the same sentence.
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Theres allot of hypothesizing about the PIC time and the status of the job.
Ill put a request into CSA to clarify the logging of time. If I hear anything Ill let you know.
WJP
Ill put a request into CSA to clarify the logging of time. If I hear anything Ill let you know.
WJP
Join Date: May 2011
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CSA offering non typed, are they still firm on the 3000 hours with 50 tonnes or is it just 3000 jet pic of which 2000 of it must be in a 737 or bigger boeing. I am very interested in applying but would like to make sure i have the qualifications first.
thanks
thanks
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Go to the recruiter websites and read the qualifications -
Total Time: 6000+ hours (excl SIM time)
Total PIC time: 3000+ hours on Jets over 50 tons (MTOW)
Boeing PIC time: 1000+ hours on B777/B747; OR
Boeing PIC time: 2000+ hours on B767/B757/B737
Last Flight: Last flight as PIC on the above types within 12 months
Age: If B777 type rated - under 53 years at date of application
Age: If NOT B777 type rated - under 50 years at date of application
basically to answer your Question you must have 3000 Jet over 50T AND at least 2000PIC on types listed plus the TT plus meet the age requirements.
Its not a one of list - you must have it all.
Good Luck.
WJP
Total Time: 6000+ hours (excl SIM time)
Total PIC time: 3000+ hours on Jets over 50 tons (MTOW)
Boeing PIC time: 1000+ hours on B777/B747; OR
Boeing PIC time: 2000+ hours on B767/B757/B737
Last Flight: Last flight as PIC on the above types within 12 months
Age: If B777 type rated - under 53 years at date of application
Age: If NOT B777 type rated - under 50 years at date of application
basically to answer your Question you must have 3000 Jet over 50T AND at least 2000PIC on types listed plus the TT plus meet the age requirements.
Its not a one of list - you must have it all.
Good Luck.
WJP
Last edited by WJAPilot; 7th Dec 2013 at 14:38.
Join Date: Jul 2013
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This is a very interested job offer base in Vancouver or Los Angeles.
China Southern A330, 340 Type Rated Captains for A Potential A380 Conversion
Flightdeck Consulting is now accepting expressions of interest for A330, 340 type rated captains with various roster patterns and bases.
Potential Bases
Guangzhou, London, Sydney, Frankfurt, Paris, Amsterdam, Vancouver and Los Angeles.
Any one here on that contract, that can answer some questions?
China Southern A380 - Flightdeck Consulting Airline Recruitment and Interview Specialists
China Southern A330, 340 Type Rated Captains for A Potential A380 Conversion
Flightdeck Consulting is now accepting expressions of interest for A330, 340 type rated captains with various roster patterns and bases.
Potential Bases
Guangzhou, London, Sydney, Frankfurt, Paris, Amsterdam, Vancouver and Los Angeles.
Any one here on that contract, that can answer some questions?
China Southern A380 - Flightdeck Consulting Airline Recruitment and Interview Specialists
Join Date: Jul 2012
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Just got through their selection....toughest I've ever done by a mile. Looking forward to the start date and a new chapter. Can't wait to see my ex wifes face when she realises her free lunch is over :-)
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Congrats bacon,
did you complete the second round - the CAAC ride, if so ive got it scheduled and would sure love some first hand knowledge.
Which position and base are you selecting.
Cheers
WJP
did you complete the second round - the CAAC ride, if so ive got it scheduled and would sure love some first hand knowledge.
Which position and base are you selecting.
Cheers
WJP
Join Date: Jul 2008
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CSA
Hey Man congrats!!!!
I'm in the process myself for the 787 so if you can share the experience I would much appreciated. I just got done turning in my paperwork with LongReach and just waiting to hear. I'm 737 so I'm a bit nervous.
What is your background? And what was the timeline of your process from the day they turned your paperwork in?
Again congrats man,
Cheers from the U.S.
Mat
I'm in the process myself for the 787 so if you can share the experience I would much appreciated. I just got done turning in my paperwork with LongReach and just waiting to hear. I'm 737 so I'm a bit nervous.
What is your background? And what was the timeline of your process from the day they turned your paperwork in?
Again congrats man,
Cheers from the U.S.
Mat
