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CSA China Southern!

Old 7th Feb 2014, 00:19
  #181 (permalink)  
 
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RayofLight.

That's good info thanks for that - can I ask which airline do you work for.

WJP
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Old 11th Feb 2014, 15:59
  #182 (permalink)  
 
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Anyone currently on course with the 787 care to share any of their experience thus far,

WJP
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Old 16th Feb 2014, 08:29
  #183 (permalink)  
 
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ELAC, I consider your statement as incorrect;

"CSA advertises that they are recruiting captains, and so they are, but evidently they are not recruiting captains that they intend to routinely designate as the Pilot In Command, but rather captains who will be assigned almost exclusively to relief captain duties..."

I put this scenario to you;

The CSA Expat Captain attends the briefing with his FO and a Chinese Captain and his FO, who will be the relief crew for the sector. After the dispatcher briefing the Expat Captain decides how much fuel is required and signs the dispatch documents. He then briefs the cabin crew. He then settles into the left seat in the cockpit and signs the load sheet, NOTOC, etc.

He then acts as PF for take off, climb and cruise. (Chinese Captain is in the jumpseat or already asleep in the bunk).

During cruise he retires for a few hours rest and returns prior to TOD to conduct the Cat II landing into a crappy European morning. He then parks at the gate, informs the ground crew all is well and signs the log book and arrival documents. Input from the Chinese Captain throughout, nil.

My question, why are you describing this Expat Captain as a Relief Captain and why can he not log this flight as PIC?
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Old 17th Feb 2014, 01:03
  #184 (permalink)  
 
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I put this scenario to you;

The CSA Expat Captain attends the briefing with his FO and a Chinese Captain and his FO, who will be the relief crew for the sector. After the dispatcher briefing the Expat Captain decides how much fuel is required and signs the dispatch documents. He then briefs the cabin crew. He then settles into the left seat in the cockpit and signs the load sheet, NOTOC, etc.

He then acts as PF for take off, climb and cruise. (Chinese Captain is in the jumpseat or already asleep in the bunk).

During cruise he retires for a few hours rest and returns prior to TOD to conduct the Cat II landing into a crappy European morning. He then parks at the gate, informs the ground crew all is well and signs the log book and arrival documents. Input from the Chinese Captain throughout, nil.

My question, why are you describing this Expat Captain as a Relief Captain and why can he not log this flight as PIC?
Mastema,

My question in return would be: Are you sure you understand what the definition of Pilot In Command is?

You may be doing all of those things and your Chinese compatriot may be doing none of them but he is the designated pilot in command and you aren't. Whatever you are doing it is under his authority and direction.

To review:

Pilot in command means the person who:
(1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight;
(2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight; and
...
The scenario you described did not include you either being designated as the PIC or holding the final authority and responsibility for the operation. If, despite that fact, you still wish to log your hours as PIC time then that's a matter between you, your logbook and your employer. But if you do and subsequently toddle along to another employer and allow them to believe that you were the pilot in command for all those flights when it was somebody else who held the authority do you really think you're being honest about your experience?

Alternatively, will you trot out some explanation of how you recorded all the time as PIC regardless of that fact because somebody found a 20 year old interpretation bulletin that said it was acceptable for a private pilot to do so if he was the "sole manipulator of the controls" while another "safety pilot" was the designated PIC?

Personally, I'd suggest that if you are caught out in the first instance, or attempt the explanation in the second instance, you're likely to be shown the door pretty quickly at most airlines, whether or not you consider the recording of the PIC hours as justifiable by what you did during the flight.

Now, please don't get me wrong, there are many reasons why a job at CSA may be attractive, and for some the matter of who logs the PIC time no longer holds much concern. Beyond a certain number it only really matters in terms of proving recency. If that describes you, then why bother putting something in your logbook which might cause you grief later on? But if PIC hours really are important to you, perhaps it would be better to be working someplace where, without question, you are the PIC.

As a practical matter, the real reason why one would want to be the PIC has nothing to do with what you'll put in your logbook. In China probably more so than anywhere else I've been you are going to want to have the privilege of being the "final authority" when things go sideways. I'm not sure how much time you've spent here, but the actual conduct of an abnormal situation with a 4 man Chinese crew will not be anything like what you've experienced elsewhere. Hands will be flying in various directions un-commanded, there will be 3 voices all speaking in Chinese at the same time and somebody will insist on ringing up the chief pilot on the satcom before any decision is taken regardless of the circumstances. Often frustrating but usually manageable if you are the PIC and can assert that final authority, but if you are not, you're likely to quickly become about as relevant to the outcome as the number of pillows in the crew bunk.

Last, for what it's worth, I've found the Chinese pilots to be a good bunch to work with overall. Usually amiable, co-operative in intention and with reasonable ability, just not particularly strong on SOP, systems knowledge or the finer points of airmanship which can make a big difference in pinch. The working day, though, is certainly far more pleasant than it was at another carrier located somewhere east of a west sea.

Regards,

ELAC
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Old 17th Feb 2014, 03:07
  #185 (permalink)  
 
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ELAC

quick question for you... if indeed we are not the signing authority what column do we put the time flown then as a expat captain.... when under the controls of the aircraft and in the left seat - whether it be for the cruise portion or the t/o and landing portion...

no sarcasm intended its a real question.

WJP
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Old 17th Feb 2014, 11:22
  #186 (permalink)  
 
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ELAC

You did not completely answer my question;

Why do you describe all CSA expat Captains in such a condescending manner? (Relief Captain/ Senior First Officer/ Etc)

My reply to you, I would suggest the CSA expat Captains trot the following out at any future interview.

Mainly because, it applies to CSA.

Under U.S. FAAFAR 14 CFR 61.51, logging flight time as a PIC is different and distinct from acting as the legal PIC for a flight.
The International Civil AviationOrganization, definition is: "The pilot responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft during flight time.

"Flight time for airplanes is defined by the U.S. FAA as "Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing.

My next question(s) to you;
Why the bad attitude toward CSA expat Captains?
Is the desert not hot enough this time of year??

Last edited by MASTEMA; 17th Feb 2014 at 11:40. Reason: Because ELAC said so...
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Old 17th Feb 2014, 13:37
  #187 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
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CSA PIC

Hi everyone,

Let it be known that I'm a successful CSA candidate waiting for my CAAC check and that the below is my understanding after talking to PARC, reading the draft contract and talking to someone already flying the line in CSA as an expat CPT:

1.- CSA does not hire PIC's. They hire CAPTAINS. Captains are ATPL holders rated on the aircraft who can fly on the left seat iaw company procedures.

2.- Initially, CSA expat captains will not be allowed to fly as Captains by themselves, that is, alone with First Officers.

3.- After a year and a half or so, and if the company so decides, they will be "upgraded" to a higher degree of captaincy (A2, D, or whatever they call it) where they will be able to operate without the restriction set on #2.

4.- All CSA long-haul flights on the B787 and B777 are double crewed and therefore all expat CPT's will always be paired up with an unrestricted CPT (presumably a Chinese guy with whiter hair than you) who will be the designated PIC for the flight, weather he is flying, sleeping or taking a dump.

5.- Expat CPT's will take turns with unrestricted CPT to fly the leg or act as relief. This means that, when it's their turn, they will operate from the left seat, with an F/O on the right, but with the unrestricted CPT / PIC somewhere in the ACFT.

6.- Even when not operating (flying) the leg, the unrestricted CPT acting as PIC will still be responsible for all decisions regarding the flight and not the expat CPT. This includes signing the techlogs and related legal paperwork for dispatch.

7.- For logging purposes, and in line with Chinese and company regulations, the expat restricted CPT's will be able to log PIC when they're operating from the left seat. Weather an airline down the road dismisses that flight as valid for an interview is irrelevant. Airlines hire whoever they deem appropriate and they may require that the PIC time on long-haul flights be the designated PIC, and not just a CPT operating the leg. They may also require for you to play baseball, be proficient in black and white photography or be able to run 3 miles naked.

8.- In reality, it makes sense to me that CSA covers themselves and provides a transition to non-rated CPT's where they will act as CAPTAINS, but under the initial supervision of a more senior unrestricted Captain who obviously will be making the calls while the newbies learn the tricks of a new ACFT, new company, new part of the world and new type of operation.


With all that said, I think the gig looks good for those wanting to transition and that your PIC time will count towards your overall experience on the ACFT, although maybe challengeable by some carriers who would dismiss your PIC time due to not being the designated PIC for the flight.


Good luck to all!
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Old 17th Feb 2014, 20:57
  #188 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: AUSTRALIA - CHINA STHN
Age: 55
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Sounds Fair

Last post sounds about right to me... As a CSA 330 foreign pilot I often sign bits n pieces of the paperwork , loadsheet, notoc , occasionally tech log and maybe station copies of flight plan acceptance etc... The Chinese captains are not always (if rarely ) greyer than me as most are sub-40 to mid 40... Although I have flown with the odd one over 50 on occassion.

The experience I have on the line is that they treat/ expect you to act like the captain on your legs. So I reckon logging about half the total is a reasonable decision. As said if someone down the track disagrees I will just rely on the 8000 command hours I already have if push comes to shove! But if this job continues until I retire in ten years or so, under similar terms I am currently on, and I can still pass the NASA medical, I cant really see another flying job taking its place to be honest:-))) At least not one in Australia!!

Wja
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Old 17th Feb 2014, 23:36
  #189 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Woodja51 and 737lpa Thanks so much for the information.

Recently got told they are no longer hiring on the 87, was hoping for YVR as I live in the area... but am suppossed to now head over in March for the CAAC check and will look closely at the 777 commuting gig (60hrs).

is there somewhere I can see the routes of the 777 - the CSA website doesnt break it down into routes.

Thanks again guys,

All the Best.

J
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Old 18th Feb 2014, 00:07
  #190 (permalink)  
 
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ELAC

quick question for you... if indeed we are not the signing authority what column do we put the time flown then as a expat captain.... when under the controls of the aircraft and in the left seat - whether it be for the cruise portion or the t/o and landing portion...

no sarcasm intended its a real question.

WJP
No problems.

Things get a bit more complicated once you start working expat contracts as the rules tend to change from one locale to the next.

The way that it's been approached by most of the expats I know is as follows:

Unlike in Canada, when you show up for work in China (or Korea, India, Middle East or wherever) the company is going to hand you a company logbook. Record your hours there in whatever manner the company and the local regulator approve. If they say you can log PIC time when you are not the PIC, then so be it, the hours are entered according to their rules.

Your personal logbook is a different matter. Most expats will, over time, acquire any number of different licences (and company logbooks) and the rules for logging hours may be different in different places. You will, however, generally use only one "base" licence as the credentials you present when going from one carrier to the next. If your next stop turn out to be in the Middle East, for example, the licence you will present and that will matter to them will be your Canadian one, not the Chinese one (which you will not be allowed to retain, btw). So, what goes into your personal logbook should be consistent with the rules for logging hours that apply to the "base" licence that you will be presenting to get future jobs. If there's then an issue relating to what your exact duties were you can provide the company logbook to support that although not the PIC you were a qualified captain and employed in that capacity.

When I worked in Canada 15 years ago the requirements for augmented crew operations were that all crew members were to log all of the flight time and that only the designated PIC could log the flight time as pilot in command. The remainder of the crew, regardless of whether they held a position of captain or first officer recorded their flight time as 2nd Pilot. Times may have changed in Canada since then, but my betting is not.

The usual work around for flights crewed with more than one captain was to have one designated as the PIC for the outbound flight and the other designated as the PIC for the return. This is the practice that I've seen put in place in every other locale aside from China. Here, the practice at my carrier has been that the qualified expat captain is always the PIC on international flights except when the other captain holds a training/checking authority. Mostly this isn't an issue as the Chinese captains we're paired with usually hold a more junior grade, so it's no different than when the training captain is PIC instead of the expat line captain.

Ultimately, though, the question people interested in CSA as destination need to answer is not how they are going to put their hours into their logbook. The important question is what job are you being hired to do, and is it position that you will be satisfied to accept? As per another poster, the understanding of what the job is boils down to:

1.- CSA does not hire PIC's. They hire CAPTAINS. Captains are ATPL holders rated on the aircraft who can fly on the left seat iaw company procedures.
....
4.- All CSA long-haul flights on the B787 and B777 are double crewed and therefore all expat CPT's will always be paired up with an unrestricted CPT (presumably a Chinese guy with whiter hair than you) who will be the designated PIC for the flight, weather he is flying, sleeping or taking a dump.
....
6.- Even when not operating (flying) the leg, the unrestricted CPT acting as PIC will still be responsible for all decisions regarding the flight and not the expat CPT. This includes signing the techlogs and related legal paperwork for dispatch.
If those terms are acceptable then one should go for the job and enjoy. If not, then don't go and start looking elsewhere. There are plenty of carriers out there that hire expat captains for the purpose being pilots in command. In fact, until recently, there was never any doubt about that being the expectation of the job.

Cheers,

ELAC

Last edited by ELAC; 18th Feb 2014 at 00:47.
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Old 18th Feb 2014, 00:45
  #191 (permalink)  
 
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ELAC

You did not completely answer my question;

Why do you describe all CSA expat Captains in such a condescending manner? (Relief Captain/ Senior First Officer/ Etc)
...

My next question(s) to you;
Why the bad attitude toward CSA expat Captains?
Is the desert not hot enough this time of year??

Mastema,

It sounds like you've got a bit of a raw nerve there. I never described CSA expat captains in any terms, condescending or otherwise. From your own quote of what I originally posted:

"CSA advertises that they are recruiting captains, and so they are, but evidently they are not recruiting captains that they intend to routinely designate as the Pilot In Command, but rather captains who will be assigned almost exclusively to relief captain duties..."
I stated what I understand the terms of the job that CSA is offering to be. That hirees will not be assigned to PIC duties has been confirmed by several others on this thread. There is no slight there intended towards those that are working for CSA.

Perhaps you find any description of duties using the terms "relief captain" or "augmenting captain" to indicate some diminishment of status. In the places I've been, that's not the case. "Captain" is a rank or status period. "Relief captain" is a duty, just as "pilot-in-command" is. If you want to call not being the PIC something other than "relief captain" or "augmenting captain" then by all means feel free to do so.

As to your second question, similarly, I have no attitude regarding CSA expat captains at all. One or two individuals have posted their rationales for logging PIC time in their logbook when not the PIC that I think reflect a questionable practice and I've said so. As somebody whose been working in China for over 5 years and done expat gigs in various locations for 15 years now I've had some experience with the subject and have a reasonably informed opinion. If my opinion doesn't happen to suit the desires of some that's fine, it's no skin off my nose. Some who are considering the job, however, don't have any previous points of reference to decide whether the practice is reasonable or not. For those, hearing a different viewpoint might be worthwhile before they quit a secure job and head over to the wild west that is China these days.

Regards,

ELAC
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Old 18th Feb 2014, 05:14
  #192 (permalink)  
 
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ELAC

Others have also pointed out that CSA has;

-Level D Expat Captains, who can allow the FO to take off and land

-Level A Expat Instructors, who can sit in the left or right seat and train FOs or Captains

You maintain that they cannot log this as PIC time?

According ICAO and FAA you are incorrect.

The International Civil AviationOrganization, definition is: "The pilot responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft during flight time.

"Flight time for airplanes is defined by the U.S. FAA as "Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing.
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Old 18th Feb 2014, 12:12
  #193 (permalink)  
 
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ELAC

There are plenty of carriers out there that hire expat captains for the purpose being pilots in command. In fact, until recently, there was never any doubt about that being the expectation of the job.
I have to disagree with the above. I don't see that many offers where a B737 CPT will be hired as a B777/B787 CPT with the conditions, salaries and bases offered at CSA.

Sure there a lot of contracts as PIC for rated and current pilots on their fleet. But to transition to long haul from short haul without touching the right seat of the boat is not that easy... except maybe EK when they opened the gate last year for those willing to move to the desert.
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Old 18th Feb 2014, 22:01
  #194 (permalink)  
 
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According ICAO and FAA you are incorrect.

The International Civil AviationOrganization, definition is: "The pilot responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft during flight time.

"Flight time for airplanes is defined by the U.S. FAA as "Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing.
Mastema,

I see nothing in either citation that supports your contention that two pilots can be concurrently logging PIC time for the same flight hours, Following your logic, should not the first officer also log PIC time whenever you step out of the cockpit for a call of nature?

In any event, if you wish to believe that it is so then by all means go ahead and put it into your logbook that way. I'm curious, though, about if, when you head off to your next employment interview (and there will almost certainly be a next one, no job in China is a secure one) you will clearly disclose that those PIC hours were logged when someone else was the pilot with final authority and responsibility over the flights?

I don't see that many offers where a B737 CPT will be hired as a B777/B787 CPT with the conditions, salaries and bases offered at CSA.

Sure there a lot of contracts as PIC for rated and current pilots on their fleet. But to transition to long haul from short haul without touching the right seat of the boat is not that easy... except maybe EK when they opened the gate last year for those willing to move to the desert.
737lpa,

Well, that's a different kettle of fish now, isn't it? There are precious few opportunities to get something for nothing. If you want to be based at home, be paid large dollars and be trained on newer/bigger equipment there's bound to be a price to be paid somewhere.

Nothing wrong with that in itself, but if one decides to take the goodies and then wishes to paper over the price by rationalizing that the flight time spent with somebody else in command still qualifies as PIC time in one's logbook I'd suggest that you'd be stepping out onto thin ice.

Enjoy the job if you take it, but if you have no previous experience in China take heed that in the event of the unusual (and at times even just the same old, same old) things will not unfold in the cockpit quite as you might expect them to. If you are not the pilot with the final authority you may find things become distinctly uncomfortable (if for no other reason than that the whole discussion about the problem will take place in Chinese) and that your input is of little relevance to the outcome.

Regards,

ELAC
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Old 18th Feb 2014, 22:10
  #195 (permalink)  
 
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ELAC who do you work for and how is it you have been so successful.

If china is so bad - and i've read all the threads... why do you remain there?

WJP
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Old 19th Feb 2014, 03:40
  #196 (permalink)  
 
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I suspect Elac & I work for the same Prc major carrier. After five years with them (allowing a view of the highs & lows), Elacs accounts seem quite accurate.

The narrowbody / widebody Ccq program at our airline has left several of those wanting out, to be found wanting. Pic2 time seems to be known at least by some other employers, not to be Pic1 time. The Pic1's signature in your logbook shows this.

The difference may be of importance when the inevitable happens- base closure, medical failure, cockpit conflicts or an altitude bust (the foreign pilot will be blamed) put you on the street. Anyone currently enjoying the many benefits of Prc airline employment (and I am one) would pay to note Elacs comments.
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Old 19th Feb 2014, 04:01
  #197 (permalink)  
 
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I dont think Im dismissing them and the worries of flying in the PRC are very real.

A follow up question.... why would the PIC1 be signing my logbook.

15000 hrs and a descent amount of command and Ive never had anyone sign my logbook other that the Chief Pilot stamping the book as I moved onwards.

I cant see me getting my logbook signed after every flight is that what you are suggesting?


Why the mystery on who you work for as well?

WJP
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Old 19th Feb 2014, 08:50
  #198 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
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Signing Logbook

WJA

In China, you must carry your logbook with you on every flight.

PIC signs crew log book on every flight.
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Old 19th Feb 2014, 16:56
  #199 (permalink)  
 
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Thats interesting.

Even Captains or is that for the 2nd Officers.

Im guessing this practice is for the purposes of those who are nationals not necessarily expat captains but it is something that I will have to look into.

Any expats on contract care to comment about whether the P1 signs your logbook?


Cheers

Last edited by WJAPilot; 19th Feb 2014 at 17:07.
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Old 19th Feb 2014, 22:03
  #200 (permalink)  
 
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WJAPilot,

Check your PMs.

Regards,

ELAC
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