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Type but no time IN type?

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Type but no time IN type?

Old 22nd Oct 2012, 19:13
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Type but no time IN type?

(Cross posted from the North America forum as response there was, er, "underwhelming" and South and/or East Asia seem to be the areas I would most likely be targeting)

Hey folks,

Looking for some advice on how best to market myself as an expat pilot. As I'm sure most people in this forum have experienced, the US job market seems to be circling the toilet faster and faster. It certainly seems to me that all of the most lucrative and stable flying in the foreseeable future will be overseas. I'm 36, unmarried, no kids, about 7000 hours, largely single pilot turboprop time in freight and air ambo, but also about 1200 in a BE400 doing passenger 135 charter. My thinking lately has been that it might be useful to purchase either a 737 or Airbus type to make myself more attractive to foreign airlines, but I'm not sure whether the type rating itself will do me any good at all with no time in type. I'm pretty sure in the US it would be next to worthless, but I'm not nearly as clear on how things work overseas.

And if that's a bad idea, what's a good one? I really think the time to get out of the US is rapidly approaching.

Regards,
TRF
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Old 22nd Oct 2012, 19:23
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It won't do you any good, the problem is not your total times but the fact that your times are not in airline operations, I know that it sounds silly since you have a lot of actual hand flying experience and will do a lot better than many children of the magenta, but it is their playground, you only play if you comply with what they want, if you are interested in flying overseas and specially in Asia, you need to get some airline time under your belt first. My recommendation is to try to get a job at any of the regional carriers hiring pilots out here, they usually have more flexible time requirements than the carriers operating 737's and 320's, after you get some time in airline operations out here (500+) then start sending resumes out to other jobs you want, I believe that without airline times the type ratings you mentioned won't make a difference.
Good luck

Last edited by The Dominican; 22nd Oct 2012 at 19:24.
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Old 22nd Oct 2012, 21:55
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+1 for everything that Dominican said.

The single pilot experience in IMC with approaches to the mins, are really great & will definitely get you a lot of respect & brownie points from the pilots who have been there, done that & those who sit with you in the interview session.
The problem is, in order to reach there, the application will have to pass through the HR & Mgmt types, who decide what is right for their company. They will not let you reach the point to get those brownie points.
Right or wrong, it is their turf, their rules.....

I am being told the same thing from my contacts; the TT time, the variety of flying, single pilot ops, 4 yr degree etc etc NONE of this is not that of a big deal in ME & SE Asia.
What the arilines actually want,
1) Time in type on the A/c they operate.
2) The time in airline operations in comparable type of A/C & operations.

Look at the requirements of QATAR, FLYDUBAI or EMIRATES, look at their requirements & you will see that 1000 TPIC is no where in the picture

CRJ700/900 or similar (read min 30 Ton MTOW limit) is a must for Emirates but QATAR & Fly Dubai are relatively (little) easy to get a break in ........

I am very junior to give any advise but based on my reasearch, If I was in your shoes, I would join a regional for a year or so depending who my target airline is...

Problem is that for a regional, you will be way overquallified......
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Old 22nd Oct 2012, 22:46
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Yeah that's sort of what I was afraid of. As far as going to a regional, that's not really an option (do you know what they pay those guys over here???) I'll have to figure something else out. Maybe I can marry an aussie or a kiwi and sneak in that way.

PS. As far as how they "should" view my time...I'm not one of those guys who complains about how the HR types "should" see me. As someone said "their game, their rules".
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Old 22nd Oct 2012, 23:11
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Yeah that's sort of what I was afraid of. As far as going to a regional, that's not really an option (do you know what they pay those guys over here???) I'll have to figure something else out.
The point I was trying to make is that you can target an airline job on the expat market, not in the US (I realize the salary makes it not an option) start sending your stuff to all the feeder airlines you can find that operate heavier RJ's (CRJ7's and above, forget the CR2's) all over the world, even if it is not where you want to be finally, the goal is to get some airline experience that coupled with your actual experience will give you the times you need to tick the boxes on an application. I'll give you an example, I have a good friend that I have known for over 20 years, very experienced pilot with over 11,000 hours and over 7,000 jet PIC, but all his time was in corporate jets (Hawker 800, Falcon 2,000) he wanted to leave corporate aviation and get into airline flying but even with those credentials he was not getting any interview offers except for more corporate flying and he was done with that. After having a chat with him I convinced him to stop trying to target A320's and 777's as an F/O and try to get a job in a regional carrier in the expat market, he got a job out in the ME flying an E175 and flew it for a while, then he came to Asia and flew the same type a little more, now he is at Skymark and came as a DEC on the 737.

Food for thought, good luck
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Old 23rd Oct 2012, 03:32
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Good food, too. Thanks.

Anyone have any recommendations for places to send a resume? I'm pretty sure visa rules make Europe, Australia, etc out of the question (I am a US citizen), but in order to get somewhere good down the line, I'd be willing to do a few years just about anywhere.
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Old 23rd Oct 2012, 03:50
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"Yeah that's sort of what I was afraid of. As far as going to a regional, that's not really an option (do you know what they pay those guys over here???) I'll have to figure something else out. Maybe I can marry an aussie or a kiwi and sneak in that way. "

It is not easy anywhere, especially in any part of the developed world, whether it is Europe, USA, NZ or AUS, a decent paying flying job is very difficult to find & even after all the struggle if you manage to find one, there is no guarantee how long you will have it.....

The part of the world which offers best in terms of pay is the part where most don't want to live....

I know how it is here at home bud, I am going through the same grind. I know very well what they pay 1st yr FO at XJET, SKYWEST, PNCL & GOJET. I also know how things are playing out with Comair & Colgan & American Eagle is not far behind to be next.....

Perhaps you didn't read my post, where I said even though I am very junior in terms of flight hours, but I have seen enough springs & winters & also have done my research.

So, if I was you, this is what I would do.... suck it up for 6-12 months, join a company which operates CR7/9 or E170/175, pref with no training contract, fly 6-12 months & apply to Qatar, FD etc etc & move on with life.....

Heck, who cares abt a prorated training contract, if one gets a job making $7000 to $8000 per month, paying back the remainder of the contract will not be hard at all & it will be a nice tax write off.

BTW if I had even 1/3rd of your flight experience, I would be sitting in the right seat of a 320 or 737 in 6-12 months.....

Last edited by pilotbaba; 23rd Oct 2012 at 03:51.
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Old 2nd Nov 2012, 11:16
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Type but no time IN type?

Hate to butt in, but along those lines I have a little over 10,000 hours, 3 type ratings. Flew 121 for many years Saab, CRJ, DC9, 737 - but all as an FO. After being furloughed due to 9/11 ended up flying corporate for the last decade or so. Learjet Captain and line instructor.

Would like to get back to the airlines and would be willing to move the family overseas - great experience for the kiddo. Middle East probably isn't an option due to my religion though.

Any suggestions? Thanks for letting me jump in!
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Old 3rd Nov 2012, 20:56
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Your religion is noone else's business
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Old 3rd Nov 2012, 22:16
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Your religion is noone else's business
Try saying that in Saudi Arabia
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Old 4th Nov 2012, 01:35
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Contact employment agencies directly. Talk to agents. They will guide you in the right direction. By the way, SKYMARK Airlines hires DECs win no time in type. IASCO and WASINC are agencies that provide pilots to SKYMARK.

You will have to get yourself to wher ever the assessment is held on your own dollar. It's going to be a crap shoot.

Good luck.
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Old 25th Nov 2012, 08:32
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no time in type

Same boat as a few who have posted on this thread, with slightly different circumstances. Soon to be retired “heavy” military pilot, 5000tt all ME, 3000PIC mostly turbine, plenty of international/oceanic, BUT no B737/A320 time in type or 121 experience. Have flown extensively in Asia and want to stay. I recently put in a package to Singapore Airline Cargo for a F.O. on a 747 and I received a rejection email the day after the FedEx package was received at their facility. Other carriers don’t even acknowledge I’ve applied. I’m willing to consider going to the regionals and work my way up…

@ Dominican you mentioned “…try to get a job in a regional carrier in the expat market”…and “My recommendation is to try to get a job at any of the regional carriers hiring pilots out here…”

Anyone know a good source for which Asia and/or ME regionals hire expats and which do not? Thanks.
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Old 25th Nov 2012, 10:34
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I am astonished...
A kid with 500hrs on type is more marketable than you folks?
World is upside down...
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Old 26th Nov 2012, 07:39
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@requesttheblock... Your situation is a difficult one (sorry for being blunt, I don't believe in rosé color glasses) airlines abroad will NOT look at you with neither military nor corporate only times, I wholeheartedly agree with eaglesnest1972 in the sense that I think it is a very short sighted stance from these management guys, I'll give you an example, I have a good friend that I have known for over 25 years, this guy has over 14,000 hours with at least 9,000 jet PIC in A/C's like the G5, G6, citation X, etc. he has flown around the world over and over again and he does have airline time (just under the minimums here, it doesn't matter it is on the 767, they don't look pass the fact it is under the minimums) I can't get him an interview, but guys that worked at COMAIR and never flew outside of the US (well, they flew to Canada so I guess they have international time) and all their time is on the CRJ are getting hired in what world does that make any sense? Well, in their world it does and it is their train set.
My recommendation would be to get in touch with the contract companies, you can start with talking with Frank at CREW right there in Hono, explain them what your situation is and if there is a way you can get into airline flying (maybe getting your type on a regional jet or a Q400) anything that will give you the minimum airline times required to tick the box and then with your vast experience you can apply to other gigs. Talk to PARC, RISHWORTH, CREW, WASINC ETC. you don't really have any other option except UCAL or any other US carrier at the bottom of the pile.

The best of luck compadre, and thank you for your service

PS: just wanted to clarify that my comments were NOT aimed at putting down the regional guys. I came from the regionals myself and I'm grateful for the opportunity, I am of the opinion however that your experience and that of my good friend has a lot to offer and should be considered in my opinion.

Last edited by The Dominican; 26th Nov 2012 at 07:47.
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Old 29th Nov 2012, 03:40
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@The Dominican…thanks for the reply. I actually stopped by CREW a few months ago and talked to Frank -- very nice guy. At the time I was interested in a 767 FO job they had advertised for ANA. He basically said the same thing (no commercial experience = no chance), although at the time I thought he was just talking about the market in Japan. Didn’t realize this applied throughout most of Asia. I never expected to be considered for PIC, but I thought I would be marketable as an FO, especially with the anticipated growth in the region and all the talk about companies being unable to hire enough pilots to fill their jets.

I have no problem getting a type and then working my way up, although I’d like to be confident that the type rating I pursue will get me headed in the right direction. Don’t want to sitting around with a new type and no job. I’ll take your advice and discuss with some of the contract companies and go from there. Thanks!

Last edited by requesttheblock; 29th Nov 2012 at 03:43. Reason: typo
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Old 30th Nov 2012, 08:28
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Raw type rating without airline meat!

I agree with your advice to the wannabe but it isnt just ailirne time, more importantly recency on type in the past 3-6 months!

I have close to 2,500 hrs myself with ATPL from two different states LPR and experience on EFIS heavy turboprops like ATR but not recent on type and find myself unemployable for 3 years....despite dishing out more applications than I can count. It pains me to see an occasional jet job emerging requesting a rating and 150hrs..... How the hell are you expected to just get 150 hours without legitimizing the financial sharks like Eagle Air International? WHy don't the airlines engage the budding pilot and make em pay via salary deductions...would seem more than fair...even with a percentage of the costs paid upfront as deposit for commitment!

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Old 30th Nov 2012, 09:26
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Indonesia will be the best bet for those with type and no time on type as their aviation industry is growing rapidly.
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Old 1st Dec 2012, 03:50
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but not recent on type and find myself unemployable for 3 years....despite dishing out more applications than I can count. It pains me to see an occasional jet job emerging requesting a rating and 150hrs
What's the big deal with having to be current in the aircraft? I never got why companies wanted that. You'd think that after 2500rs in the plane, even from 3 years ago, you'd still be better than a guy with 300hrs.
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Old 4th Dec 2012, 09:15
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Possibly insurance requirements?

Even the regulatory agencies around the world usually have "baby captain" minimums.

When I am new in an airplane it takes a few hundred hours until I can start to feel that connection of the small elevator change all the way up to my fingertips. The awareness of a certain noise or lack of noise that tells me something is wrong doesn't come after the type ride. It takes some time to revisit this feeling after I have not flow even for a few months.

The time requirements of currency can also involve a reduction in training necessary. Many countries can have a short course if you are current.

Just some thoughts.
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Old 6th Dec 2012, 02:50
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Same boat as a few who have posted on this thread, with slightly different circumstances. Soon to be retired “heavy” military pilot, 5000tt all ME, 3000PIC mostly turbine, plenty of international/oceanic, BUT no B737/A320 time in type or 121 experience. Have flown extensively in Asia and want to stay. I recently put in a package to Singapore Airline Cargo for a F.O. on a 747 and I received a rejection email the day after the FedEx package was received at their facility.
RTB,

SQ Cargo probably rejected your application because the CAAS does not allow foreign military flight time to be counted towards the licensing requirements. So, if all your time is military, in their eyes you have no flight time. Yes, a low-timer with a 737 type rating is more marketable than you.
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