Time to Re-Write The Rules of Indian Civil Aviation
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Time to Re-Write The Rules of Indian Civil Aviation
The Indian Government is planning on setting up the Civil Aviation Authority of India
The Ministry of Civil Aviation has invited comments and suggestions from the General Public in revising the Aircraft Act of 1934 and Aircraft Rules of 1937 as well the present DGCA CAR's and make them more inline with "International Standards and Recommended Practices "
I would like to use this opportunity to call upon anyone and everyone involved in Indian Civil Aviation to make the best use of this opportunity and force the Govt of India , The Ministry of Civil Aviation and the Almighty DGCA
to change the present system of Indian Aviation .
Everything from flight crew licensing , medical standards , flight training , exam syllabus , FDTL , recency , 6 month notice to change jobs , AME , ATC , Airspace in India etc needs to be looked at once again .
Please forward your comments to
Ms. Shubha Thakur, Director,
Ministry of Civil Aviation,
Rajiv Gandhi Bhawan,
Aurbindo Marg,
New Delhi – 110 003
email : [email protected] or [email protected]
Last Date to send your comments is 25th July 2012
http://civilaviation.gov.in/cs/group...oca_001688.pdf
Please remember that the new rules will affect each and every one of us in the future and now is the time to make that change
You can start by posting your comments and suggestions in this thread .
The Ministry of Civil Aviation has invited comments and suggestions from the General Public in revising the Aircraft Act of 1934 and Aircraft Rules of 1937 as well the present DGCA CAR's and make them more inline with "International Standards and Recommended Practices "
I would like to use this opportunity to call upon anyone and everyone involved in Indian Civil Aviation to make the best use of this opportunity and force the Govt of India , The Ministry of Civil Aviation and the Almighty DGCA
to change the present system of Indian Aviation .Everything from flight crew licensing , medical standards , flight training , exam syllabus , FDTL , recency , 6 month notice to change jobs , AME , ATC , Airspace in India etc needs to be looked at once again .
Please forward your comments to
Ms. Shubha Thakur, Director,
Ministry of Civil Aviation,
Rajiv Gandhi Bhawan,
Aurbindo Marg,
New Delhi – 110 003
email : [email protected] or [email protected]
Last Date to send your comments is 25th July 2012
http://civilaviation.gov.in/cs/group...oca_001688.pdf
Please remember that the new rules will affect each and every one of us in the future and now is the time to make that change
You can start by posting your comments and suggestions in this thread .
Last edited by cyrilroy21; 1st Jul 2012 at 20:40.
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My only suggestion is to hang the present DGCA officials till death.
If the processing times are going to be 3 months on average, how on earth is anyone expected to get far given that in aviation things like recency, flight reviews, medicals are all periodical and need to be kept in sync because they are all inter connected and have validity periods to them.
I really wish we Indians finally concede that we do not have the ability to hold administrative roles. The best thing to do would be to scrap DGCA and outsource Civil Aviation in India to Australia or USA or some other country that have proven track record with efficiency and reliability.
It takes 1 week to issue licences in Australia.
They have toll free contact numbers for query that actually are attended.
You can email them and rest assured you will get a reply within 24 hours.
Appearing for exams is a breeze. You pay the fee online, book a date and give the exam at the centre of your choice.
The officials dont yell at you when you go to meet them but greet you.
I suggest we outsource. Bring the Brits back. We are not good at governing. Indians should only be given clerical positions. Top officials at teh DGCA can serve as peons and janitors working under the British.
What a joke this DGCA has turned out to be. They have absolutely no clue what they are doing. They charge us exhorbitantly for their shoddy services. We pay Rs 5000 for the CPL book which must have cost them Rs3 to make. The paper is cut by hand with a scissor by on of the babus in the office and you can see the jagged edges on it. I mean, how skilled do you really have to be to hold a piece of paper and cut with straight with a scissor. The blue cardboard that it is then pinned to and folded must have been sourced from the slum dwellers of Mumbai.
If the processing times are going to be 3 months on average, how on earth is anyone expected to get far given that in aviation things like recency, flight reviews, medicals are all periodical and need to be kept in sync because they are all inter connected and have validity periods to them.
I really wish we Indians finally concede that we do not have the ability to hold administrative roles. The best thing to do would be to scrap DGCA and outsource Civil Aviation in India to Australia or USA or some other country that have proven track record with efficiency and reliability.
It takes 1 week to issue licences in Australia.
They have toll free contact numbers for query that actually are attended.
You can email them and rest assured you will get a reply within 24 hours.
Appearing for exams is a breeze. You pay the fee online, book a date and give the exam at the centre of your choice.
The officials dont yell at you when you go to meet them but greet you.
I suggest we outsource. Bring the Brits back. We are not good at governing. Indians should only be given clerical positions. Top officials at teh DGCA can serve as peons and janitors working under the British.
What a joke this DGCA has turned out to be. They have absolutely no clue what they are doing. They charge us exhorbitantly for their shoddy services. We pay Rs 5000 for the CPL book which must have cost them Rs3 to make. The paper is cut by hand with a scissor by on of the babus in the office and you can see the jagged edges on it. I mean, how skilled do you really have to be to hold a piece of paper and cut with straight with a scissor. The blue cardboard that it is then pinned to and folded must have been sourced from the slum dwellers of Mumbai.
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I don't know if the pilots here would agree with me, but I'd say - No more of that ridiculous ATPL oral exam. Exit the Stone Age.
Plus, the aircraft technical exam can be conducted by a DGCA approved flying school/club whenever the pilot wishes to fly that particular aircraft which is not endorsed on his/her licence. This is how it works in Australia/New Zealand.
Speaking of endorsements, I reckon the weight categories should come into effect rather than the type of aircraft.
Plus, the aircraft technical exam can be conducted by a DGCA approved flying school/club whenever the pilot wishes to fly that particular aircraft which is not endorsed on his/her licence. This is how it works in Australia/New Zealand.
Speaking of endorsements, I reckon the weight categories should come into effect rather than the type of aircraft.
Last edited by smurf84; 2nd Jul 2012 at 05:40.
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@smurf
Well, the technical exams ARE conducted at the flying training organisation where the training is conducted.
I never gave any tech exam here in India for my conversion.
Even for TR training on Jets (>5700KG) the technical exams are done at the training institute, following their syllabus.
Well, the technical exams ARE conducted at the flying training organisation where the training is conducted.
I never gave any tech exam here in India for my conversion.
Even for TR training on Jets (>5700KG) the technical exams are done at the training institute, following their syllabus.
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The time involved in processing of licences and related matters is simply unacceptable. You cannot expect to be in the aviation industry and be lax about punctuality and timing. By the time we wait around 4 to 6 months for one rating, exam result or endorsement to come through, we would have missed the bus, so to speak.
Issue of licence, ratings, exam credits etc should take no more than 48 hours from the time of submission of the application. If they are short of manpower, let them hire more employees. Simple as that. Afterall, they are make us pay through the nose for services. India is full of unemployed graduates, let them take on board a few thousands of them to get our work done on time and in an efficient manner.
Otherwise, outsource the DGCA to Australia/NZ/USA
Issue of licence, ratings, exam credits etc should take no more than 48 hours from the time of submission of the application. If they are short of manpower, let them hire more employees. Simple as that. Afterall, they are make us pay through the nose for services. India is full of unemployed graduates, let them take on board a few thousands of them to get our work done on time and in an efficient manner.
Otherwise, outsource the DGCA to Australia/NZ/USA
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avicon -
Outsourcing! Usually, it's the other way round. One can only imagine what would that be like.
http://dgca.nic.in/admit/PilotVenue_042012(OMR).pdf
An honest question. I have a Cessna 172 endorsed on my Indian CPL. If I wish to have a TB20 endorsement, shouldn't I appear for the TB20 aircraft technical exam (GEN/SPEC) conducted by the DGCA? So I have to wait for another 2 months till the dates for the next session are out. Why don't I just walk into a DGCA approved flying school in India to sit for the exam whenever I wish to do so?
Otherwise, outsource the DGCA to Australia/NZ/USA
Well, the technical exams ARE conducted at the flying training organisation where the training is conducted.
An honest question. I have a Cessna 172 endorsed on my Indian CPL. If I wish to have a TB20 endorsement, shouldn't I appear for the TB20 aircraft technical exam (GEN/SPEC) conducted by the DGCA? So I have to wait for another 2 months till the dates for the next session are out. Why don't I just walk into a DGCA approved flying school in India to sit for the exam whenever I wish to do so?
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@smurf
I agree, usually jobs are outsourced to third world countries. But that is only to keep the costs down. In our case, we simply do not have the resources and technical know-how to carry out the administration properly. So outsourcing is a burden we will have to bear.
And I see no reason why the Civil Aviation Authority shouldn't be able to afford the costs. Gone are the days when appliaction forms and fees cost Rs 50. The least amount that you will spent on DGCA for any endorsement/issue/rating related work is Rs5000/- With that kind of money flowing into the office, why cannot they afford to outsource.
I agree, usually jobs are outsourced to third world countries. But that is only to keep the costs down. In our case, we simply do not have the resources and technical know-how to carry out the administration properly. So outsourcing is a burden we will have to bear.
And I see no reason why the Civil Aviation Authority shouldn't be able to afford the costs. Gone are the days when appliaction forms and fees cost Rs 50. The least amount that you will spent on DGCA for any endorsement/issue/rating related work is Rs5000/- With that kind of money flowing into the office, why cannot they afford to outsource.
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Granted that anything related to aviation is expensive. But consider this, CASA charges a fee of AUD 110 for issue of licence. Everything is computerised so that if you have any query related to your licence, it can be processed within minutes, not months. Licence replacement/reprint etc take 24 hrs. Most of the work can be done by the applicant by login onto your account with the ARN number.
For Asutralian standards AUD 110 (Rs 5,300)is a nominal fee. With the kind of fast and efficient service we get, it is money well spent. But Rs5000 for an Indian licence, printed on cheap paper that has been recycled 50 times over, and issued after 6 months in the waiting is daylight robbery.
For Asutralian standards AUD 110 (Rs 5,300)is a nominal fee. With the kind of fast and efficient service we get, it is money well spent. But Rs5000 for an Indian licence, printed on cheap paper that has been recycled 50 times over, and issued after 6 months in the waiting is daylight robbery.
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@smurf
I agree with your TB20 scenario. It should be none of DGCA's business where we give the exam and when we give it.
We should be able to walk into any flying school approved to conduct these exams and fix a date and time and be able to give it at our convenience.
Why should we have to apply for an exam with piles of papers and attested copies to prove our identity, educational qualification etc??? This is nonsense. They already have our computer number with us, which should contain all our credentials and personal details.
For verification, it should be enough to produce any one of the standard accpeted id's such as Passport, govt issued Driving licence, ration card etc with photo. The centre conducting the exam can verify us and allow us to sit the test. This is what happens all over the world. Why the exception in India.
Makes me want to renounce my Indian citizenship!!
I agree with your TB20 scenario. It should be none of DGCA's business where we give the exam and when we give it.
We should be able to walk into any flying school approved to conduct these exams and fix a date and time and be able to give it at our convenience.
Why should we have to apply for an exam with piles of papers and attested copies to prove our identity, educational qualification etc??? This is nonsense. They already have our computer number with us, which should contain all our credentials and personal details.
For verification, it should be enough to produce any one of the standard accpeted id's such as Passport, govt issued Driving licence, ration card etc with photo. The centre conducting the exam can verify us and allow us to sit the test. This is what happens all over the world. Why the exception in India.
Makes me want to renounce my Indian citizenship!!
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I would agree with getting rid of the orals, both for ATPL and RTR. Some of the questions they ask are absurd and the answer expected is to be read word by word as in their answer key.
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DGCA is short-staffed and they need to find the right staff.
Cyril Roy, thank you for bringing this to our attention.
I hope some of the pilots email their suggestions or comments to the Ministry of Civil Aviation.
Cyril Roy, thank you for bringing this to our attention.
I hope some of the pilots email their suggestions or comments to the Ministry of Civil Aviation.
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a long old process for Medicals.
When it comes to medicals in Bangalore I have to send a letter, then wait for about 2 -3 weeks and then again send a letter if no reply.
Its sad then when we call the no nobody picks the call, even if they answer the call they have no idea whats with the booking of medical dates, when we send them a fax nobody knows where is the fax.
I have seen many of my friends booking two places like Delhi or Bangalore, they say if we do not get the reply from them in time then we miss the dates and then the NOC procedure.
Its best if they can book our dates by just making a call, they can take down our file no and name and gives us a date instantly. So there will not be two bookings at different place.
This process is followed it pune and its really helpful and quick.
Its sad then when we call the no nobody picks the call, even if they answer the call they have no idea whats with the booking of medical dates, when we send them a fax nobody knows where is the fax.
I have seen many of my friends booking two places like Delhi or Bangalore, they say if we do not get the reply from them in time then we miss the dates and then the NOC procedure.
Its best if they can book our dates by just making a call, they can take down our file no and name and gives us a date instantly. So there will not be two bookings at different place.
This process is followed it pune and its really helpful and quick.
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@avicon
Oh god. Please do that, if it'll stop your incessant whining. Then again, which other country will take you ? Australia ? Good luck with that. 
You really need to grow up. I mean...wow.
Makes me want to renounce my Indian citizenship!!
You really need to grow up. I mean...wow.
My only suggestion is to hang the present DGCA officials till death.
I suggest we outsource. Bring the Brits back. We are not good at governing. Indians should only be given clerical positions.
Last edited by dgtl887; 2nd Jul 2012 at 19:24.
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there is a lot of angst regarding handling of things by DGCA which keeps coming out in these posts.
I am guilty of it myself on other topics in this forum. but it just lowers the quality of discussion. So lets not make it personal against the officials or other members on the forum.
The best way to make this discussion constructive is to think along the lines of the various aspects of aviation and what ails them, then give suggestions.
topics i can think of, some of which have been mentioned by original poster :
licensing ( requirments, recency, renewal, conversion, endorsement of ratings)
flight training (approval, audits, standards for flight tests)
written exams ( on demand exams, streamline the process for applying for exam)
medicals ( appointments, approved civilian docs besides air force centres)
Record keeping (why seperate license no. file no., computer number. in most countries, you have one number for everything)
general aviation ( outdated rules for approval to buy private a/c, insane taxes on fuel and landing charges, no encouragement to FBOs and MROs at indian airports)
Airspace (most of the airspace still controlled by military and civillian airspace badly planned, which does not allow any general aviation or flight training near tier1, tier 2 cities)
Independant Accident Investigation Bureau (which does not anwer to the regulator and has the power to cause change of regulations if the need is felt after an accident investigation.)
This list is not ehaustive and some of these are being addressed by DGCA in a piecemeal manner.
my main worry is wether this excercise is genuine or is it just an eyewash for senior officials (Mr Ziadi, Mr. Bhushan etc ) to build brownie points.
time will tell.
well executed reforms can unlock the potential of this sector and will help us unemployed pilots to look beyond airlines for a career.
I am guilty of it myself on other topics in this forum. but it just lowers the quality of discussion. So lets not make it personal against the officials or other members on the forum.
The best way to make this discussion constructive is to think along the lines of the various aspects of aviation and what ails them, then give suggestions.
topics i can think of, some of which have been mentioned by original poster :
licensing ( requirments, recency, renewal, conversion, endorsement of ratings)
flight training (approval, audits, standards for flight tests)
written exams ( on demand exams, streamline the process for applying for exam)
medicals ( appointments, approved civilian docs besides air force centres)
Record keeping (why seperate license no. file no., computer number. in most countries, you have one number for everything)
general aviation ( outdated rules for approval to buy private a/c, insane taxes on fuel and landing charges, no encouragement to FBOs and MROs at indian airports)
Airspace (most of the airspace still controlled by military and civillian airspace badly planned, which does not allow any general aviation or flight training near tier1, tier 2 cities)
Independant Accident Investigation Bureau (which does not anwer to the regulator and has the power to cause change of regulations if the need is felt after an accident investigation.)
This list is not ehaustive and some of these are being addressed by DGCA in a piecemeal manner.
my main worry is wether this excercise is genuine or is it just an eyewash for senior officials (Mr Ziadi, Mr. Bhushan etc ) to build brownie points.
time will tell.
well executed reforms can unlock the potential of this sector and will help us unemployed pilots to look beyond airlines for a career.
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i have always felt the same, pilots must think out of the box, dream more than an airliner, work as to help the future aviators, senior determined pilots (not who think they are top guns after retiring from an airliner) and aviation experts must be inducted, at positions such as flying training standards, investigation heads .
*Senior CGI and dedicated young instructors (as intern) to head examination stndrds.
*Also abolishing 10+2 physics and maths, if not recognising more universities.
*Also closure of a seperate wing in RK puram as CEO.
*Use of one id that is either a file number or licence number.
*Computerising entire database, PMR records confined within web portal through limited access, to avoid transpotation and hassels of a physical document, apart from that maintaining so many records is a big workload, with the private sector there are many data entry operators who can finish the initial uploading in days, after that training to the staff for adding entries and maintaining the records must be given.
*Introducing HR at a level and setting up document collection centre with counters, eg when you go with your documents to submit for renewal or initial issue, a representative checks if all documents are present which are required and also is readily available with query solving, in SACAA these representatives have a computer wherein desired checklist appears as they select a type of license to be issued and following and updating in the system as submitted.
*Use of electonic mail and postal service together to improve correspondences.
*Develoing a Hazard reporting system and an acton taking wing, where fellow people(not disclosing identity)report any hazard in flying conditions in a company, airport, staff responding to this an investigation is taken.
*Official visits of various department heads in indian CAA to other better performing CAA's for learning and inculcating the same in their departments.
PLEASE LET ME KNOW IF YOU DO NOT AGREE ON ANYTHING.
*Senior CGI and dedicated young instructors (as intern) to head examination stndrds.
*Also abolishing 10+2 physics and maths, if not recognising more universities.
*Also closure of a seperate wing in RK puram as CEO.
*Use of one id that is either a file number or licence number.
*Computerising entire database, PMR records confined within web portal through limited access, to avoid transpotation and hassels of a physical document, apart from that maintaining so many records is a big workload, with the private sector there are many data entry operators who can finish the initial uploading in days, after that training to the staff for adding entries and maintaining the records must be given.
*Introducing HR at a level and setting up document collection centre with counters, eg when you go with your documents to submit for renewal or initial issue, a representative checks if all documents are present which are required and also is readily available with query solving, in SACAA these representatives have a computer wherein desired checklist appears as they select a type of license to be issued and following and updating in the system as submitted.
*Use of electonic mail and postal service together to improve correspondences.
*Develoing a Hazard reporting system and an acton taking wing, where fellow people(not disclosing identity)report any hazard in flying conditions in a company, airport, staff responding to this an investigation is taken.
*Official visits of various department heads in indian CAA to other better performing CAA's for learning and inculcating the same in their departments.
PLEASE LET ME KNOW IF YOU DO NOT AGREE ON ANYTHING.
Last edited by vishwas_ddn; 3rd Jul 2012 at 05:51.
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Also, its high time now. DGCA needs to do smthng regarding Pilot Recruitment Process. Spicejet(most corrupt airline), and many other carriers, are recruiting Pilots- who have jugaad or who can pay them huge chunk of money.
DGCA should take some strict action and there should be some stringent rules and regulation so that evryone gets fair chance.
DGCA should take some strict action and there should be some stringent rules and regulation so that evryone gets fair chance.
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@ spoolkick
Well I don't think that is possible as these are private players.
They cant even stop hiring back door entries in Air India.
IMO if student after spending can't get a job as a Pilot at least there should be jobs where preference can be given to these jobless CPL holders in the Airline Industry like in Flight Dispatcher or in some type of ground operations. I know the pay is very less, the annual pay is just 1 month salary of a Copilot, but its good to be in the aviation industry rather than working in some call center.
They cant even stop hiring back door entries in Air India.
IMO if student after spending can't get a job as a Pilot at least there should be jobs where preference can be given to these jobless CPL holders in the Airline Industry like in Flight Dispatcher or in some type of ground operations. I know the pay is very less, the annual pay is just 1 month salary of a Copilot, but its good to be in the aviation industry rather than working in some call center.