AI Express pilot defies ATC for take-off, puts flyers at risk
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AI Express pilot defies ATC for take-off, puts flyers at risk
MUMBAI: In the span of about 30 seconds, an Air India Express aircraft with about 90 passengers on board created a double scare at Singapore's Changi airport on Monday. First, its pilot did not wait for the vital take-off clearance from the air traffic controller concerned. As the Boeing 737-800 aircraft sped along the runway for a take-off, the alarmed air traffic control officials hauled up the pilots and ordered them to stop. The jet had reached the critical speed of 260 kmph and was seconds away from lifting off the runway when the pilot pulled the throttle back to abort the take-off.
It was a highly controversial move, fraught with risk, as take-offs cannot be aborted at such high speeds without putting the aircraft and its occupants at risk. It did not end badly though, as the pilots could bring the aircraft to a halt before it reached the runway end. Had it been a short runway or a wet one, the aircraft could have gone off the runway. The airline has grounded both the pilots and an investigation is on. An Air India Express spokesperson confirmed the incident. The matter has once again raised questions about the training standards in Air India Express. The airline was lambasted by the Directorate General of Civil Aviation in a recent audit for its poor training practices.
"A Boeing 777 aircraft had just departed from runway 02 C and so take-off clearance to the next aircraft would have been given only after a span of two minutes," said a source. But the Air India Express pilots, operating the Singapore-Trichy flight IX-681, for reasons not yet known, decided to take off from the said runway before obtaining the mandatory go-ahead from the air traffic controller. "A Boeing 737 aircraft takes about 30 seconds to go from zero to lift-off speed, which would have been about 276 kmph, in this case," said a source. The take-off roll, though only 25-30 seconds long, is a critical stage of flight and so the flight crew operation manual-one of the books carried by pilots on board, which lists the dos and don'ts for safe flying-- lays down clear and strict guidelines for the actions that can or cannot be taken at different stages of take-off.
The rules for "Rejected Take-off" in the Boeing 737 manual say that a take-off can be rejected after the aircraft has crossed 80 knots (148 kmph) but before reaching what's called a "V1 speed" in aviation parlance, only in case of a fire, an engine failure, weather warning or if the aircraft is unsafe or unable to fly. V1 or "take-off decision speed" is the speed at or before which the pilot should decided whether to continue with the take-off or not. Once the aircraft has crossed V1, the pilot should continue with the take-off, no matter how serious the emergency, as an attempt to stop the aircraft would result in the aircraft going off the runway.
"The Air India Express Boeing 737 aircraft was critically close, about a second away from reaching V1 speed when the pilot decided to reject the take-off. It crossed the V1 speed even as the pilot pulled back the throttle," said the source.
Then the speed went down as the automatic speed brakes were deployed and the aircraft came to a halt. V1 speed is sacrosanct in flying. It is calculated using inputs like weight of the aircraft, condition of the runway, elevation of airport, temperature etc. When a pilot begins a take-off, he/she has one hand on the flying control and the other on the throttle. This is done so that the throttle can be pulled back and the take-off rejected, if say, there is an engine failure or fire warning etc.
"About 5-6 knots before the aircraft reaches V1 speed, the other pilot in the cockpit calls out V1. At this point, the pilot flying the aircraft is supposed to take his hand off the throttle," said a source. This is done to ensure that the throttle is not pulled back and take-off is not rejected once the aircraft crosses V1 speed.The Boeing 737 NG Flight Crew Training Manual says that rejecting a takeoff near "V1 has often resulted in the airplane stopping beyond the end of the runway". The finer details will be known only after information from the Digital Flight Data Recorder and Cockpit Voice Recorded is studied. Among critical questions are when did the ATC ask the pilots to reject the take-off and how many seconds elapsed before they decided to do so? Why did the pilots decided to do the high-speed reject when they knew the aircraft was very close or almost at V1 speed? Both pilots were from Air India, deputed on Air India Express
AI Express pilot defies ATC for take-off, puts flyers at risk - The Times of India
It was a highly controversial move, fraught with risk, as take-offs cannot be aborted at such high speeds without putting the aircraft and its occupants at risk. It did not end badly though, as the pilots could bring the aircraft to a halt before it reached the runway end. Had it been a short runway or a wet one, the aircraft could have gone off the runway. The airline has grounded both the pilots and an investigation is on. An Air India Express spokesperson confirmed the incident. The matter has once again raised questions about the training standards in Air India Express. The airline was lambasted by the Directorate General of Civil Aviation in a recent audit for its poor training practices.
"A Boeing 777 aircraft had just departed from runway 02 C and so take-off clearance to the next aircraft would have been given only after a span of two minutes," said a source. But the Air India Express pilots, operating the Singapore-Trichy flight IX-681, for reasons not yet known, decided to take off from the said runway before obtaining the mandatory go-ahead from the air traffic controller. "A Boeing 737 aircraft takes about 30 seconds to go from zero to lift-off speed, which would have been about 276 kmph, in this case," said a source. The take-off roll, though only 25-30 seconds long, is a critical stage of flight and so the flight crew operation manual-one of the books carried by pilots on board, which lists the dos and don'ts for safe flying-- lays down clear and strict guidelines for the actions that can or cannot be taken at different stages of take-off.
The rules for "Rejected Take-off" in the Boeing 737 manual say that a take-off can be rejected after the aircraft has crossed 80 knots (148 kmph) but before reaching what's called a "V1 speed" in aviation parlance, only in case of a fire, an engine failure, weather warning or if the aircraft is unsafe or unable to fly. V1 or "take-off decision speed" is the speed at or before which the pilot should decided whether to continue with the take-off or not. Once the aircraft has crossed V1, the pilot should continue with the take-off, no matter how serious the emergency, as an attempt to stop the aircraft would result in the aircraft going off the runway.
"The Air India Express Boeing 737 aircraft was critically close, about a second away from reaching V1 speed when the pilot decided to reject the take-off. It crossed the V1 speed even as the pilot pulled back the throttle," said the source.
Then the speed went down as the automatic speed brakes were deployed and the aircraft came to a halt. V1 speed is sacrosanct in flying. It is calculated using inputs like weight of the aircraft, condition of the runway, elevation of airport, temperature etc. When a pilot begins a take-off, he/she has one hand on the flying control and the other on the throttle. This is done so that the throttle can be pulled back and the take-off rejected, if say, there is an engine failure or fire warning etc.
"About 5-6 knots before the aircraft reaches V1 speed, the other pilot in the cockpit calls out V1. At this point, the pilot flying the aircraft is supposed to take his hand off the throttle," said a source. This is done to ensure that the throttle is not pulled back and take-off is not rejected once the aircraft crosses V1 speed.The Boeing 737 NG Flight Crew Training Manual says that rejecting a takeoff near "V1 has often resulted in the airplane stopping beyond the end of the runway". The finer details will be known only after information from the Digital Flight Data Recorder and Cockpit Voice Recorded is studied. Among critical questions are when did the ATC ask the pilots to reject the take-off and how many seconds elapsed before they decided to do so? Why did the pilots decided to do the high-speed reject when they knew the aircraft was very close or almost at V1 speed? Both pilots were from Air India, deputed on Air India Express
AI Express pilot defies ATC for take-off, puts flyers at risk - The Times of India
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Article way too long
Pilot allegedly commences takeoff run without clearance and subsequently aborted takeoff on order of tower. No near miss involved. It appears separation from large to heavy aircraft was the order of the day for the delayed takeoff clearance.
Many tower controllers in India either do not know or care about issuing takeoff clearances for the Little Boeings behind the Large Boeings.
Anyway, the CVR will tell the true story, provided it was downloaded in Singapore, and the erase button has been deactivated too
.
Pilot allegedly commences takeoff run without clearance and subsequently aborted takeoff on order of tower. No near miss involved. It appears separation from large to heavy aircraft was the order of the day for the delayed takeoff clearance.
Many tower controllers in India either do not know or care about issuing takeoff clearances for the Little Boeings behind the Large Boeings.
Anyway, the CVR will tell the true story, provided it was downloaded in Singapore, and the erase button has been deactivated too
.
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CaptJNS this is not personal but please restrain yourself from making general comments about a whole country based on a few incidents or your perception from years back when you may or may not have worked here.
We may not have the best record but our ATC is not so shoddy that clearances are not required/given here.
And not all accident/incident investigations are fudged.
Again, Dont take it personally but none of us like to hear slurs about our country on a public forum. Remember no country or system is perfect and all have their faults.
We may not have the best record but our ATC is not so shoddy that clearances are not required/given here.
And not all accident/incident investigations are fudged.
Again, Dont take it personally but none of us like to hear slurs about our country on a public forum. Remember no country or system is perfect and all have their faults.
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Actually Indian ATC is some of the worst in the world....
The radio channels are in total chaos, busy sectors flooded with local pilots using it as a personal chat line.... "morning Captain, happy landing captain" This is on an already overloaded sector.
Our comany route manuals have specific warnings about Indian ATC due to their non compliance with ICAO procedures.
Let me ask you this, when was the last time you had an EFC given in India as part of your holding instructions?
Does it not tend to be "FastAir123 orbit present position for a while" what doea that do for the lost communications procedure?
I have never heard Indian ATC advise that your following a heavy aircraft, or issue a clr such as "FastAir 123 clear takeoff 23L, caution wake turbulance departing aircraft was a heavy 777"
Can you honestly say you have heard these things in India?
Or is it more like how i describe it above? Coupled with the endless arguments on RT from Indian pilots asking ATC who the number 1 is, how how come xyz got push before me.....
PT6A
The radio channels are in total chaos, busy sectors flooded with local pilots using it as a personal chat line.... "morning Captain, happy landing captain" This is on an already overloaded sector.
Our comany route manuals have specific warnings about Indian ATC due to their non compliance with ICAO procedures.
Let me ask you this, when was the last time you had an EFC given in India as part of your holding instructions?
Does it not tend to be "FastAir123 orbit present position for a while" what doea that do for the lost communications procedure?
I have never heard Indian ATC advise that your following a heavy aircraft, or issue a clr such as "FastAir 123 clear takeoff 23L, caution wake turbulance departing aircraft was a heavy 777"
Can you honestly say you have heard these things in India?
Or is it more like how i describe it above? Coupled with the endless arguments on RT from Indian pilots asking ATC who the number 1 is, how how come xyz got push before me.....
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I agree, Indian ATC is among the worst. This is coming from a pilot who has operated commercial flights into and out of over 100 countries.
To be fair, the controllers there are hamstrung by their inept gov't bureaucrat higher-ups who limit the tools they have to ply their trade.
But at the same time, I have seen plenty of downright arrogant and unprofessional behavior many times out of Indian ATC.
I'm sure my commentary will piss off many Indian nationals but you guys really need to get out and fly the world to see what I am referring to. If you make it a national pride issue, the system will never change.
Anecdotally, I recall one time on approach into BOM. There was an aircraft a few miles ahead us. The TCAS blip was right on the 5mi ring so I couldn't tell exactly how close he was but spacing seemed less than 5 mi. As we started to get rocked by what appeared to be wake turbulence, I asked my FO to query ATC as to type of aircraft, the plan being if it was a heavy I would slow up to final approach speed thereby getting out of his wake. He made 2 requests to ATC, no reply. After making a 3rd attempt, the controller came on the radio: "why do you ask such frivolous questions? Spacing is more than adequate. You waste my time with such frivolous inquires... blah, blah, blah". The lecture went on for what seemed like a minute (an eternity in ATC RT time). All the guy had to say was type of aircraft and the discussion would have been finished. I told the FO, "I have the radio". I then proceeded to tell the controller, "If I ask what I am following you will tell me. Got it?" Then before he could reply I switched to tower. Upon landing, I contacted our operations duty manager and told him I want to file a report on this guy. He took me into an office and asked if I would speak to the controller directly by phone. I did, we tussled back and forth, and in the end my point was made and accepted... that we are in a dynamic environment as pilots, if we're getting rocked by wake of a heavy (it was a B744 ahead of us), then we must take action to slow up our speed so as not to exacerbate the situation. Instead of his arguing about it and wasting ATC air time, he should have answered me with one word, (B747-400). His excuse was that he was training and that he did not have time for such questions. Well, I'm a trainer too. If you're not up to the elevated tasks and stresses of being an instructor, then you're not cut out for it. It's that simple. He piped down from there and apologized.
I witnessed a lot of this type of behavior by ATC, between them and other pilots. Part of the problem is that Indian aviation is growing faster than existing infrastructure improvements can keep up. But the other part of the problem is systemic, in that an approach of nationalistic pride limits the process of self critique for the purposes of improvement overall. A growing nation should always be weary of this
To be fair, the controllers there are hamstrung by their inept gov't bureaucrat higher-ups who limit the tools they have to ply their trade.
But at the same time, I have seen plenty of downright arrogant and unprofessional behavior many times out of Indian ATC.
I'm sure my commentary will piss off many Indian nationals but you guys really need to get out and fly the world to see what I am referring to. If you make it a national pride issue, the system will never change.
Anecdotally, I recall one time on approach into BOM. There was an aircraft a few miles ahead us. The TCAS blip was right on the 5mi ring so I couldn't tell exactly how close he was but spacing seemed less than 5 mi. As we started to get rocked by what appeared to be wake turbulence, I asked my FO to query ATC as to type of aircraft, the plan being if it was a heavy I would slow up to final approach speed thereby getting out of his wake. He made 2 requests to ATC, no reply. After making a 3rd attempt, the controller came on the radio: "why do you ask such frivolous questions? Spacing is more than adequate. You waste my time with such frivolous inquires... blah, blah, blah". The lecture went on for what seemed like a minute (an eternity in ATC RT time). All the guy had to say was type of aircraft and the discussion would have been finished. I told the FO, "I have the radio". I then proceeded to tell the controller, "If I ask what I am following you will tell me. Got it?" Then before he could reply I switched to tower. Upon landing, I contacted our operations duty manager and told him I want to file a report on this guy. He took me into an office and asked if I would speak to the controller directly by phone. I did, we tussled back and forth, and in the end my point was made and accepted... that we are in a dynamic environment as pilots, if we're getting rocked by wake of a heavy (it was a B744 ahead of us), then we must take action to slow up our speed so as not to exacerbate the situation. Instead of his arguing about it and wasting ATC air time, he should have answered me with one word, (B747-400). His excuse was that he was training and that he did not have time for such questions. Well, I'm a trainer too. If you're not up to the elevated tasks and stresses of being an instructor, then you're not cut out for it. It's that simple. He piped down from there and apologized.
I witnessed a lot of this type of behavior by ATC, between them and other pilots. Part of the problem is that Indian aviation is growing faster than existing infrastructure improvements can keep up. But the other part of the problem is systemic, in that an approach of nationalistic pride limits the process of self critique for the purposes of improvement overall. A growing nation should always be weary of this
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Jns has said absolutely nothing to offend your fragile sensibilities. Let's not delude ourselves with the notion that Indian ATC is anywhere close to world standards. The equipment is getting upgraded, albeit gradually. However, as pointed out earlier, a punitive culture combined with government apathy and ineptitude is shackling all the progress which can be made.
Personally, I have been given takeoff clearance numerous times behind a heavy with no regard given to separation standards. And their description of runway surface conditions is deplorable.
Personally, I have been given takeoff clearance numerous times behind a heavy with no regard given to separation standards. And their description of runway surface conditions is deplorable.
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First lets not make this into a Jay Leno vs India thing.
For your convenience Stiknrudder I will paste the comment I made before as it pertains to separation between little and large Boeings.
Now your statement
VECC, VABB, and VOMM are culprits when is comes to providing separation of big and little Boeing jets. The latest offense, in VABB, was last month when I was cleared for takeoff behind a departing CX 747-400 cargo jet at N3. My F/O acknowledged and accepted the clearance against my wishes. I took control of the RT and declined tower's offer do to separation requirements. Thus T/O clearance was cancelled. During cruise, I showed my F/O, which is on my IPAD, separation requirements between little and large jets.
By the way... VIDP, and VOCI do a pretty good job at providing adequate separation between the big and little jets. That said, I guess I'm pretty current with operations in India... wouldn't you agree Stiknruddr.
Alas... what would these forums be without 300 hour TT children of the magenta line or Microsoft pilots
?
For your convenience Stiknrudder I will paste the comment I made before as it pertains to separation between little and large Boeings.
Many tower controllers in India either do not know or care about issuing takeoff clearances for the Little Boeings behind the Large Boeings.
CaptJNS this is not personal but please restrain yourself from making general comments about a whole country based on a few incidents or your perception from years back when you may or may not have worked here.
By the way... VIDP, and VOCI do a pretty good job at providing adequate separation between the big and little jets. That said, I guess I'm pretty current with operations in India... wouldn't you agree Stiknruddr.
Alas... what would these forums be without 300 hour TT children of the magenta line or Microsoft pilots
?
Last edited by captjns; 26th Jan 2012 at 11:36.
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PT6A.....was told in my 737 yonks ago to line up and wait at
Madras behind a departing LH 747. Saw an aircraft on TCAS
8 miles out and calculated there'd be enough room for my 2
minutes and enough separation from the landing bloke. I did
think ATC knew this as he told IA to slow down to minimum.
Just as the LH got airborne I was told "cleared for IMMEDIATE
takeoff." I jumped in and said "NEGATIVE...require two mins
behind Luftahansa for wake turbulence separation." The ATC
scrote screamed his bloody head off saying an Indian Airlines
was six miles from touchdown. I countered again and said I
will wait more 1 minute before accepting a TO clearance. All
ended when I shoved the throttles at 2min 10sec after the LH
started rolling.
Huge stink on CTL afterwards but suffice to say I never ever
accepted a lineup anywhere in India again if anyone was on
final within 10 miles and I was to depart behind a heavy.
Madras behind a departing LH 747. Saw an aircraft on TCAS
8 miles out and calculated there'd be enough room for my 2
minutes and enough separation from the landing bloke. I did
think ATC knew this as he told IA to slow down to minimum.
Just as the LH got airborne I was told "cleared for IMMEDIATE
takeoff." I jumped in and said "NEGATIVE...require two mins
behind Luftahansa for wake turbulence separation." The ATC
scrote screamed his bloody head off saying an Indian Airlines
was six miles from touchdown. I countered again and said I
will wait more 1 minute before accepting a TO clearance. All
ended when I shoved the throttles at 2min 10sec after the LH
started rolling.
Huge stink on CTL afterwards but suffice to say I never ever
accepted a lineup anywhere in India again if anyone was on
final within 10 miles and I was to depart behind a heavy.
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@Geebz
Great post. And very true in that most of us Indians make it a pride issue rather than a safety one. If you point out one mistake then instead of correcting it people just point you out mistakes of expats/other countries etc.
The qualification to become an ATC is India is you know what?
M.Sc (Physics) or some Engineering Graduate!!
And still such a sub-standard safety culture!
Is this same(the qualifications) all around the world?
Great post. And very true in that most of us Indians make it a pride issue rather than a safety one. If you point out one mistake then instead of correcting it people just point you out mistakes of expats/other countries etc.
The qualification to become an ATC is India is you know what?
M.Sc (Physics) or some Engineering Graduate!!
And still such a sub-standard safety culture!
Is this same(the qualifications) all around the world?
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Indian ATCo's may be bad to handle for some or worst for others will make no difference to ATCo's here as very few incidents or even less accidents have occurred in recent memory due to errors by ATC but one thing for sure is that Indian ATCo's have inherited unethical work practice's & below par culture from their immediate superior's which goes deep from initial training stages till being appointed as ATCo's and sadly this wont change because of obvious lethargy nature of concerning authorities.Getting new equipment's will make difference if working mindset is changed.
Though i never heard Indian ATC's doing RT in regional language or non english language but i have listened to ATCo's from South East Asian/Eastern European countries do....is that on level with ICAO regulations?
Doing RT in India is pain and horror for many including me...no denial in that
Lastly this article is coming from mouth piece of TOI journalist's who have lately become lazy reporters to bring actual facts rather than fictional facts.
Captjns - You sir have become very predictable lately with constant Anti India/Indian system jibes in almost all of your posts on Indian centered pilot threads on this forum...if you got any personnel grudge towards Indians or India as a whole, then wouldn't it be wise for a professional like you who takes ESTEEM pride to be called as Captain on anonymous platform to keep within self ?
Whats wrong with 300 Hr pilot trying to gather & exchange information by use of forums? Why do i feel every time i read your posts on various thread that low timers are deemed unworthy to put their views....didn't all old timers like you on this forum spent similar career life cycle from " 0 " hours to " 1000's " just as the poor 300 Hr Ol' kids here ?? Ohh ins't it right Captjns .....
Ehhh , do not know how FO's will learn from a captain with such a attitude...
Not all Indians on PPRUNE are barely high school passed kids or having odd 300 TT and attitude like yours.....
Geebz - That was perfectly laid description by you and it's same all over India but sadly even small planes are given clearance after big duty jet's....
Feeling bad for bare qualification is Higher Grad ?Urghh ....
Sub-Standard culture( i would not put safety in the line ) is due to impractical work ethics imparted on fresh new recruits.
Mind taking a short trip to ATC training center in Bamrali Airport Allahabad ?
Lastly why does every other AI or Indian Airline thread has to become Mug fest or is it that being polite is gateway for getting mauled down by so called naturally GIFTED pilots other side of world ?
Though i never heard Indian ATC's doing RT in regional language or non english language but i have listened to ATCo's from South East Asian/Eastern European countries do....is that on level with ICAO regulations?
Doing RT in India is pain and horror for many including me...no denial in that
Lastly this article is coming from mouth piece of TOI journalist's who have lately become lazy reporters to bring actual facts rather than fictional facts.
Captjns - You sir have become very predictable lately with constant Anti India/Indian system jibes in almost all of your posts on Indian centered pilot threads on this forum...if you got any personnel grudge towards Indians or India as a whole, then wouldn't it be wise for a professional like you who takes ESTEEM pride to be called as Captain on anonymous platform to keep within self ?
Alas... what would these forums be without 300 hour TT children of the magenta line or Microsoft pilots?
Ehhh , do not know how FO's will learn from a captain with such a attitude...
Not all Indians on PPRUNE are barely high school passed kids or having odd 300 TT and attitude like yours.....
Geebz - That was perfectly laid description by you and it's same all over India but sadly even small planes are given clearance after big duty jet's....
attitudeFlying
The qualification to become an ATC is India is you know what?
M.Sc (Physics) or some Engineering Graduate!!
And still such a sub-standard safety culture!
Is this same(the qualifications) all around the world?
The qualification to become an ATC is India is you know what?
M.Sc (Physics) or some Engineering Graduate!!
And still such a sub-standard safety culture!
Is this same(the qualifications) all around the world?
Sub-Standard culture( i would not put safety in the line ) is due to impractical work ethics imparted on fresh new recruits.
Mind taking a short trip to ATC training center in Bamrali Airport Allahabad ?
Lastly why does every other AI or Indian Airline thread has to become Mug fest or is it that being polite is gateway for getting mauled down by so called naturally GIFTED pilots other side of world ?
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Johnny boy I take offense to those, in every walk of life that make statements without knowledge of the subject at hand. It ain't just India my friend. Perhaps, you should review my posts. You will see that they are directed to all walks of life all round the world.
So, that said Johnny Boy, get your facts straight before your start typing.
So, that said Johnny Boy, get your facts straight before your start typing.
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All this back-and-forth because of an incident that took place at Changi??? Read the report guys, this had nothing to do with Indian ATCOs.The pilot was wrong in departing without clearance,but, the RTO was below V1.
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captjns
Johnny boy I take offense to those, in every walk of life that make statements without knowledge of the subject at hand. It ain't just India my friend. Perhaps, you should review my posts. You will see that they are directed to all walks of life all round the world.
So, that said Johnny Boy, get your facts straight before your start typing.
Johnny boy I take offense to those, in every walk of life that make statements without knowledge of the subject at hand. It ain't just India my friend. Perhaps, you should review my posts. You will see that they are directed to all walks of life all round the world.
So, that said Johnny Boy, get your facts straight before your start typing.
Reviewing your posts other than P2F threads.. has confirmed my belief that you tend to be more aggressive towards low timers or Incredible India theme.
I would rather say if not advice that no one is messiah in aviation by having mere multi thousand hours to thrust their views on others who are trying to find their feet or two in aviation or making a category out of some one who wishes to earn his hours by getting paid in harsh working environment or paying for it.... lastly to judge a system you need to be part of it to understand what it's pro's or con's rather trying to turn up and change it in a day.You might know that " Rome wasn't built in a Day " so same goes for aviation in every yard of world.
Being a professional we are taught to work with in a system no matter how good or bad it might be with taking self interest into account and operational procedures...
So move over and be more considerate rather than sound like a old sour.
Getting your facts straight i what i wish for before you go and dissect my post.
Lastly do not put all low timers on your " Magneta Line " or else you might get pushed down by some other kid who happens to be on " Red Line " on your views that sound on fixed wavelength in repetition patterns.
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Well, no collision risk, no one hurt, and as I understand, no damage to the aircraft. 
Im not Indian, but Iused to fly alot with (non P2F) Indian FOs, to me they are as good as their western counterparts. Beside in 2002, I had to commence a Go Around out of RW12 in Adelaide, because the now defunct Air Paradise crew did not know what LAHSO means.... So there you go, not only indians.....
Anyways, safe flights guys
Im not Indian, but Iused to fly alot with (non P2F) Indian FOs, to me they are as good as their western counterparts. Beside in 2002, I had to commence a Go Around out of RW12 in Adelaide, because the now defunct Air Paradise crew did not know what LAHSO means.... So there you go, not only indians.....
Anyways, safe flights guys
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Johnny Boy, you got diarrhea of the key board. My posts about P2Fers on the Lion Air deal is not directed at any nationality. I recommend you get your facts straight and re-read my posts concerning the issue about P2Fers being part of the problem when it comes to improving terms and conditions for professional pilots.
I’ve been an expat for 22 years. That said, I am quite familiar with the system round the world on six continents, including India. I will say this that the F/Os I’ve flown with are eager to learn, and eager to fly. Over the past 36 years and some almost 25,000 plus hours, I’ve got enough practice. That said, I let the F/O do all the sectors whilst I do the paper work… no flight directors, and no auto throttles either. How many captains do you fly let you do that?
You referring to my thread about the article in the Times of India?
I did not make it up. This is just to incredible to make up. I don't work for the Times of India. It was an article in the Times of India. I did not make any accusations about pilots who fail their training with AIX are moved over to mainline AI on the 777. There’s no bashing.
Pilots fail test for small planes, but get big ones to fly - The Times of India
Again, that said sonny boy, again get your facts straight before posting.
I’ve been an expat for 22 years. That said, I am quite familiar with the system round the world on six continents, including India. I will say this that the F/Os I’ve flown with are eager to learn, and eager to fly. Over the past 36 years and some almost 25,000 plus hours, I’ve got enough practice. That said, I let the F/O do all the sectors whilst I do the paper work… no flight directors, and no auto throttles either. How many captains do you fly let you do that?
You referring to my thread about the article in the Times of India?
I did not make it up. This is just to incredible to make up. I don't work for the Times of India. It was an article in the Times of India. I did not make any accusations about pilots who fail their training with AIX are moved over to mainline AI on the 777. There’s no bashing.
Pilots fail test for small planes, but get big ones to fly - The Times of India
NEW DELHI: Imagine a person found misfit to drive a small car being allowed to get behind the wheels of a big truck. If that sounds scary, hear this. The aviation safety regulator has found that some trainees who failed to become co-pilots or qualify as commanders on single-aisle Boeing 737 on Air India's budget arm AI Express were taken by the parent company to fulfill their dream on the widebody Boeing 777 that flies long-haul routes.
Again, that said sonny boy, again get your facts straight before posting.
Last edited by captjns; 26th Jan 2012 at 16:08.
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@Capt JNS
I repeatedly stated that this is not personal, yet you made it so.
Yes you have flown a lot of hrs in a lot of places, but that does not make you perfect nor do you know all. I respect your experience but I really wouldnt want to fly with you because of your attitude.
SO WHAT if I am a trainee pilot? Do I not have the right to speak out my opinion on the same forum as people like yourself.
Tell us if you resent our presence here. We will be happy to leave this forum to all you old timers.
And finally , I have flown outside India (Canada and USA) and have seen my share of ATC Eff-ups there as well. No wake turbulence advisories at Class C airports, ATC getting hassled and losing planes on the radar, Aircraft behind me being given clearance to land before me even though we were both on long finals; Seen it all !!
I say again, No system or country is perfect and PIC is responsible for his safety.
Its not about misplaced pride if I dont like it when someone is unfairly picking on my home.
Over and out.
I repeatedly stated that this is not personal, yet you made it so.
Yes you have flown a lot of hrs in a lot of places, but that does not make you perfect nor do you know all. I respect your experience but I really wouldnt want to fly with you because of your attitude.
SO WHAT if I am a trainee pilot? Do I not have the right to speak out my opinion on the same forum as people like yourself.
Tell us if you resent our presence here. We will be happy to leave this forum to all you old timers.
And finally , I have flown outside India (Canada and USA) and have seen my share of ATC Eff-ups there as well. No wake turbulence advisories at Class C airports, ATC getting hassled and losing planes on the radar, Aircraft behind me being given clearance to land before me even though we were both on long finals; Seen it all !!
I say again, No system or country is perfect and PIC is responsible for his safety.
Its not about misplaced pride if I dont like it when someone is unfairly picking on my home.
Over and out.
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captjns
Johnny Boy, you got diarrhea of the key board. My posts about P2Fers on the Lion Air deal is not directed at any nationality. I recommend you get your facts straight and re-read my posts concerning the issue about P2Fers being part of the problem when it comes to improving terms and conditions for professional pilots.
I’ve been an expat for 22 years. That said, I am quite familiar with the system round the world on six continents, including India. I will say this that the F/Os I’ve flown with are eager to learn, and eager to fly. Over the past 36 years and some almost 25,000 plus hours, I’ve got enough practice. That said, I let the F/O do all the sectors whilst I do the paper work… no flight directors, and no auto throttles either. How many captains do you fly let you do that?
You referring to my thread about the article in the Times of India?
I did not make it up. This is just to incredible to make up. I don't work for the Times of India. It was an article in the Times of India. I did not make any accusations about pilots who fail their training with AIX are moved over to mainline AI on the 777. There’s no bashing.
Pilots fail test for small planes, but get big ones to fly - The Times of India
Quote:
NEW DELHI: Imagine a person found misfit to drive a small car being allowed to get behind the wheels of a big truck. If that sounds scary, hear this. The aviation safety regulator has found that some trainees who failed to become co-pilots or qualify as commanders on single-aisle Boeing 737 on Air India's budget arm AI Express were taken by the parent company to fulfill their dream on the widebody Boeing 777 that flies long-haul routes.
Again, that said sonny boy, again get your facts straight before posting.
Johnny Boy, you got diarrhea of the key board. My posts about P2Fers on the Lion Air deal is not directed at any nationality. I recommend you get your facts straight and re-read my posts concerning the issue about P2Fers being part of the problem when it comes to improving terms and conditions for professional pilots.
I’ve been an expat for 22 years. That said, I am quite familiar with the system round the world on six continents, including India. I will say this that the F/Os I’ve flown with are eager to learn, and eager to fly. Over the past 36 years and some almost 25,000 plus hours, I’ve got enough practice. That said, I let the F/O do all the sectors whilst I do the paper work… no flight directors, and no auto throttles either. How many captains do you fly let you do that?
You referring to my thread about the article in the Times of India?
I did not make it up. This is just to incredible to make up. I don't work for the Times of India. It was an article in the Times of India. I did not make any accusations about pilots who fail their training with AIX are moved over to mainline AI on the 777. There’s no bashing.
Pilots fail test for small planes, but get big ones to fly - The Times of India
Quote:
NEW DELHI: Imagine a person found misfit to drive a small car being allowed to get behind the wheels of a big truck. If that sounds scary, hear this. The aviation safety regulator has found that some trainees who failed to become co-pilots or qualify as commanders on single-aisle Boeing 737 on Air India's budget arm AI Express were taken by the parent company to fulfill their dream on the widebody Boeing 777 that flies long-haul routes.
Again, that said sonny boy, again get your facts straight before posting.
Now let me say who is on dis-oriented bowl movement right here and certainly its not me rather its you who just got painted into RED by a lame 300 Hours old Microsoft Sim playing wannabe as perceived by you
.See you tasted your own medicine which is giving you " Bowl Movement Condition " because the way you read my above post marked at you specifically,i can certainly see that with 22 years of sitting behind the stick as EXPAT, you can not even differentiate sentences & post's..... then how come you will see difference between things.Coming onto P2F , where in my post in says that your views of P2F are Aimed at Indian Nationals??Do you even try to think before you post here....Better get a nice new GLASSES Old pal or else you will see everything as farsighted which brings me to next question of why not you try to close down all the P2F shops that has spurned over the globe starting from " First World Countries " rather going after those who have no other choice of paying for what they believe will be good for them in future.So why not bring down EJ's and others then ?? Will be way to go Skipper....ain't i right in this one....
I did not make it up. This is just to incredible to make up. I don't work for the Times of India. It was an article in the Times of India. I did not make any accusations about pilots who fail their training with AIX are moved over to mainline AI on the 777. There’s no bashing
Above is lines from your post which i have again Re-Quote'd because i find you rather funny !!
With 36 years of flying as mainline pilot, you come up with that to counter my post ? Ohh gosh.....as i said earlier you are becoming PREDICTABLE Captjns or you are getting just too much into SANDPIT's of yours.Seriously you bring views and judgement's based on reading new articles where each day some craps crops up to sell papers ?
So a pilot failing small plane ride is given bigger one to play ......without knowing any inside facts you come up with a generalized view that AI Local pilots / Local's are sitting Donkey's...then again i get a news article regarding this
Vanishing Act
* Capt Goran Pavicevic joined Air India Express as a commander in 2008
* The airline received a mail from the pilot leasing firm expressing doubts over the veracity of entries in his log book
* He took a phone call from the airline saying that he had been taken off duty and should report to the DGCA
* He checked into a hotel in Mumbai and took the first flight out of the country
* Capt Goran Pavicevic joined Air India Express as a commander in 2008
* The airline received a mail from the pilot leasing firm expressing doubts over the veracity of entries in his log book
* He took a phone call from the airline saying that he had been taken off duty and should report to the DGCA
* He checked into a hotel in Mumbai and took the first flight out of the country
And no i didn't gave a thought about branding that kinda runaway pilot as anything
Ohh one more thing it's Johny Boy not Sonny boy( ...and please STOP using Diarrhea Keyboard's of yours or else you will end up getting some really stinky fingers...will ya ? )
You are right now posting reply to a 5 year old active pilot with odd 900 hours & Master's in Aeronautics, who spent 10 years of childhood roaming all FIRST World countries being a 3 Generation pilot.
Get a nice sanitized towel and wash off attitude of your's !
That will give you Actual Fact's !
Last edited by Johny Boy; 26th Jan 2012 at 17:12.