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AI pilots scramble for Dreamliner take-off

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AI pilots scramble for Dreamliner take-off

Old 24th Jul 2011, 12:36
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AI pilots scramble for Dreamliner take-off

MUMBAI: Going by the current plans, it is likely to enter Air India's (AI) fleet later this year but the Boeing 787 Dreamliner has already caused many a heartbreak and unleashed a battle of sorts among the airline's pilots.

The buzz doing the rounds is about the pilots being selected to fly the Dreamliner. If AI does not choose its pilots judiciously, the cash-strapped airline could end up losing about Rs 10 crore by way of training and retraining pilots for Dreamliner as well as other aircraft.

The civil aviation ministry is reconsidering AI's plan to buy 27 Dreamliners, but in the airline, the fight is on to fly the B787. Many pilots qualify to be selected for training on the B787. In the last few weeks though, many have realized that in a government-run airline like Air India apologies to George Orwell while all pilots are equal, some are more equal than others. "The top brass-chiefs, directors and anyone who can pilot an aircraft-has enlisted to train on the Boeing 787," said an airline source.

The first Boeing 787 training batch drawn up by the airline management comprises 56 commanders and 27 co-pilots. "The commander's list reads like the who's who in AI's top management. The co-pilot's list has sons and daughters of top brass," said the source. For instance: the co-pilot's list has a son and a daughter of two AI general managers; then there is the father-son pair, the father is the chief of a particular department in the airline.

But the real problem which will cause financial losses to the airline lies in the fact that baring two commanders, all the other pilots selected for the first B787 training batch are Boeing 777 pilots. The airline has ordered 31 Boeing 777s and the first of the brand new Boeing 777s entered AI's fleet in the year 2007.

The airline spent approximately Rs 25 lakh per pilot to train on the Boeing 777 (as part of aircraft purchase contract, Boeing initially trains a few pilots for free, then Air India, it is the airline which foots the bill). "Management pilots lined up to train on the B777 along with their sons and daughters. In the last four years, 132 commanders and 140 co-pilots have been trained to fly the B777," said the source. These pilots have not flown enough-also, top management pilots rarely fly-for the airline to recover their training costs. "But once these B777 pilots are trained on the B787, they cannot fly the B777. So the airline will have to train another fresh lot of pilots to fill the B777 vacancies they leave behind," the source added."When there are many A310 and B737 pilots whose training costs have been recovered and can be sent to train on the B787 Dreamliner, why is the airline sending freshly trained B777 pilots to train on the B787 and wasting the money they spent on their B777 training,'' the official wondered. "The losses on this account will be atleast Rs 10 crore. Also because we will be losing B777 instructors, examiners to B787, the airline has decided to outsource B777 training to a company in the US, though it has training infrastructure in Mumbai,'' he adds.

To make themselves and their kin eligible and prevent other pilots from being selected for B787 training, the management has drawn up special criteria for B787 training. For instance: co-pilots have to be Airline Transport Pilot License holders (ATPL). An ATPL is a higher form of license than Commercial Pilot License (CPL) and it is mandatory only for commanders. "The co-pilots ATPL criteria has not been put by Boeing, it is Air India's decision.These sons and daughters of management pilots are ATPL holders and so they qualify,'' he added. Incidentally, even the VVIP flights operated by Air India which flies the President, Prime Minister do not ask for co-pilots with ATPL. Japan's All Nippon Airways (ANA) too has ordered Dreamliners and it has a huge fleet of B777 aircraft as well. "ANA has no such criteria that B777 pilots should be sent for Dreamliner training,'' said a pilot.

AI pilots scramble to train for Dream liner Scramble for B787 take-off to cost AI 10 cr.


AI pilots scramble for Dreamliner take-off - The Times of India
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Old 24th Jul 2011, 13:19
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"The losses on this account will be atleast Rs 10 crore. Also because we will be losing B777 instructors, examiners to B787, the airline has decided to outsource B777 training to a company in the US, though it has training infrastructure in Mumbai,''
10 Crore loss taken by AI by placing holy babies from one type to other type looks like a tiny pest when total loss of AI is almost 10,000Rs Crore.
So here we go....babie's and baba's are given protection by providing papa's & mom's as their left-right seat companions.

I have this feeling since ages that AI male pilots always searches for an AI female pilot to form an long lasting AI match made in haven which will bear fruits who will make a new AI dynasty of theirs.

Someone wants to make non AI dynasty??...
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Old 24th Jul 2011, 14:13
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These aviation reports from ToI and other news papers makes me want to shoot myself in the head .

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The airline has ordered 31 Boeing 777s
The idiot writing the article doesnt even know how many aircraft the airline ordered. 23 were ordered 20 have been delivered and 3 have differed.
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When there are many A310 and B737 pilots whose training costs have been recovered and can be sent to train on the B787 Dreamliner, why is the airline sending freshly trained B777 pilots to train on the B787 and wasting the money they spent on their B777 training,''
Does ToI have the numbers? How many 310 and 737 capts? How many are TREs, TRIs,? Do they even know what TRE or TRI is? There are at the most about 10-15 310 capts of which about 5 must be TRE/TRI. Some of these guys are training on the 777 and some are still flying the lone aircraft which is still operaying on 1 or 2 routes. The 737 capts are all brand new with 1-2 yrs experience in the RHS and more importantly none are TRI/TRE or even check pilots.
And I am damn sure if AI sent these new 737 guys on the 787 we would be reading an article saying "AI endangers passenger lives by letting inexperienced pilots fly modern 787s"
Its a known fact that in any airline in the world when a new brand new and modern aircraft like the 787 is introduced into into fleet the airline would want only senior capts, TREs and TRIs to train 1st because once they get rated on the 787 they can train more pilots.
Boeing Begins 787 Dreamliner Pilot Training with Launch Customer ANA - Apr 26, 2011
Boeing 777 pilots can qualify to fly the 787 in as little as five days, given the high level of commonality between the two airplane types.
So you have the 777 crew who will be familiar with the 787 technology and then you have the 310 crew who are used to the stone age technology. Who would you rather have in the cockpit of a brand new aircraft?

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Also because we will be losing B777 instructors, examiners to B787, the airline has decided to outsource B777 training to a company in the US, though it has training infrastructure in Mumbai,''
The 777 is your main fleet. You have maximum number of TRI/TRE on the 777 and there are hardly any TRE/TRI on the other fleet (737 and 310). So where else are they supposed to get TRE/TRI if not from the 777. Oh yeah lets nor move the 777 pilots to 787s and hire expats for the 787s so that the CMD, Minister and some babus can make some money. And no AI pilot has been sent to any foreign training establishment so far. There were some articles about pan am being give a contract to train 737 and 777 pilots. As of now all 737 and 777 training is being done in mumbai on AI sims and occasionally on the jet air 777 sim.

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[To make themselves and their kin eligible and prevent other pilots from being selected for B787 training, the management has drawn up special criteria for B787 training. For instance: co-pilots have to be Airline Transport Pilot License holders (ATPL).
Ok, so increasing the requirements and selecting some one with higher qualifications is a bad thing now? I can understand if the requirement was relaxed from ATPL to CPL to accommodate the bosses kids . But asking for a higher class of license is bad now??

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Incidentally, even the VVIP flights operated by Air India which flies the President, Prime Minister do not ask for co-pilots with ATPL.
You moron its because only a select few senior capts are authorised to fly VVIPs. And only capts fly the VVIPs around no f/os.

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Japan's All Nippon Airways  (ANA) too has ordered Dreamliners and it has a huge fleet of B777 aircraft as well. "ANA has no such criteria that B777 pilots should be sent for Dreamliner training,'' said a pilot.
Oh yeah. So what is ANA doing? Training its 767 pilots to fly the 1st 787?

I am not saying that the selection of pilots to train on the 787s has been made in a complete transparent and fair manner. But some of the things which the article claims is wrong or is causing losses is total BS.

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Old 24th Jul 2011, 14:31
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flyjet787

First batch is already doing training in USA for 787.
Most of the F/O's selected are either 21-22 year old's kids of Top Ranking Management guys of Erstwhile AI or relative of some local regional politician.
I can name atleast half dozen of the F/O's and their Capt. Dads or Moms or in some cases both of them.

Most of F/O's got ATPL in the age of 21-24 years in AI have family relations with management.Either Director or GM's or Training head.

Truth hurts but most of newly recruited 737 TR F/O's in last 2 years are sons/daughters of AI Skippers....yes many pilot with no backbone got job but the number is far to less than that of with solid backbone.
Have we forgotten the way 2009 recruitment was done?

Anyways for this article - Its not even an article to be honest just an way to spread more negativity of AI and its current bad shape with all those miss-management.
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Old 24th Jul 2011, 14:47
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Nobody has gone to the USA yet. The boeing team is here and conducting some ground classes. A few senior capts are expected to go to seattle for their initial training by boeing trainers. After that they will come back to India and train the 777 pilots on the 787 sim which is being installed at AI training facility in kalina,mumbai.

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I can name atleast half dozen of the F/O's and their Capt. Dads or Moms or in some cases both of them.
I think i also know a few. Please do feel free to PM me with the names. As far as I know there are 2 parent-kid duo. But then I might be wrong. PM me we can have a good discussion.
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Truth hurts but most of newly recruited 737 TR F/O's in last 2 years are sons/daughters of AI Skippers....yes many pilot with no backbone got job but the number is far to less than that of with solid backbone. Have we forgotten the way 2009 recruitment was done?
It doesn't hurt me any more because its more or less the same every where else.

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Anyways for this article - Its not even an article to be honest just an way to spread more negativity of AI and its current bad shape with all those miss-management.
Couldn't agree more with you buddy. I mean imagine if they sent the 737 or 310 pilots to train on the 787 we would be reading a similar article with more negativity. At the end of the day ToI achieved what it wanted. Negative publicity of AI.
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Old 24th Jul 2011, 14:59
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Nobody has gone to the USA yet. The boeing team is here and conducting some ground classes. A few senior capts are expected to go to seattle for their initial training by boeing trainers. After that they will come back to India and train the 777 pilots on the 787 sim which is being installed at AI training facility in kalina,mumbai.
Batch comprising senior Capt.'s + F/O's have left the country some time back in june.That's confirmed and yes Boeing team is here but not for ground classes for pilots but for engineers.SIM's will be installed in Kalina but boeing team is not here for that.

Yes everywhere its same like having kins getting preferences over others not by such a big margin where special panels are formed just to accommodate their own( Alliance air coming up with add's where they need CRJ/ATR pilots and last date is with in 45-60 days of published Advert or getting 737 TR for AIX where panel is open till some 6 months or can be even extended and somehow it gets canceled,then news comes that they got sufficient TR pilots.....)
Its crap going on in almost all airline but not so much like its in AI.

Please do feel free to PM me with the names. As far as I know there are 2 parent-kid duo. But then I might be wrong. PM me we can have a good discussion
Its a matter of time when their names will be out in national daily very soon....so till then its all suspense.
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Old 24th Jul 2011, 15:28
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As per the 777 roster all the big shots including heads of various depts and their kids have been flying regularly all through June and also in July. The 787 team from Boeing has been conduction class room session in the flight crew training and operations building and not in the engineering dept building.

And as per this article flight crew training is scheduled to start next month.
Boeing 787 Dreamliner lands at IGI airport for first time - Economic Times
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Air India would get its first-demo trials on the aircraft, which is claimed to be the most advanced in the world. Training of its pilots to fly this plane is likely to begin next month, Boeing officials said. Boeing officials said Air India pilots' training on this aircraft would begin next month. Intensive discussions have been held with the airline and the Directorate General of Civil Aviation on the training programme and type-rating of trained pilots.
And some names have come out in the recent past. But nothing will change. Its just for the news papers to fill space in their papers and for people like us to read and say "hey i know that guy and his dad".lol
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Old 24th Jul 2011, 15:36
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As per the 777 roster all the big shots including heads of various depts and their kids have been flying regularly all through June and also in July. The 787 team from Boeing has been conduction class room session in the flight crew training and operations building and not in the engineering dept building.
As per my knowledge and looking at roaster for may-june along with list that was pending under dusted table of some idiot director and few pics of a friend who just posted his 787 session pic...i can conclude that a batch is indeed done half way which can be confirmed by some very senior Emirates skippers who were their when AI batch arrived.
I have not seen July roaster yet....but will check it as soon as possible.

"hey i know that guy and his dad".lol
Hey i actually knew ...LOL
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Old 24th Jul 2011, 15:45
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flyjet - I think we need vserian views on it...he is on 777 fleet so might give latest developments.
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Old 25th Jul 2011, 09:11
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This is nothing but the same old crap
Back in the days the 'big shots got' the 747s,then the -400 then came the 777s now they moving to 787. Its a tradition in AI no one here is surprised at all and we all knew this was coming.

I am not bothering with these 787 sagas cause I know I wont be moving and I am cool with the triple7s
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Old 6th Sep 2011, 09:08
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AI is planning to place few 250 hrs CPL holders on the 787
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Old 6th Sep 2011, 09:20
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^^Let me guess who those would be ?? Another generation of resident AI pilot's....isn't it?
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Old 6th Sep 2011, 09:26
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And you wonder why IC pilots are not happy

NEW DELHI: The government may be undecided on whether cash-strapped Air India should go ahead with acquiring the Boeing 787 Dreamliners but an intense battle has already broken out within the airline over who would fly this plane! Pilots of the erstwhile Indian Airlines and Air India, who till now were bitterly divided on the issue of pay parity, are now engaged in an all out war over flying the Dreamliner.

AI pilots have been staking claim to fly the 787s on the basis of an agreement they claim to have struck with the management in the past. But IA pilots are also staking claim to be trained for this new aircraft. Unlike AI pilots who get fixed pay for 80 hours, their IA counterparts get paid only for actual number of hours flown. According to sources, AI would require 80 to 100 pilots to fly the 27 Dreamliners ordered by it. After a delay of over two years, Boeing says their delivery may begin from December.

A senior IA commander said: "From average flying of 75 hours a month some time back, our actual flying is down to about 52 hours now. So we have already taken a one-third pay cut. Being sent to the 787 means some of us would get to fly the new aircraft while the remaining will get their flying hours increased . Sending pilots from AI's Boeing 777 fleet to the 787 would create a shortage for that plane and possibly require hiring of expats for the B-777 s. Despite this ground reality, there's an attempt to keep us out of that plane as the Dreamliners were ordered by erstwhile AI in premerger days." There are indications of industrial unrest unless the airline is able to resolve this issue to the satisfaction of both the warring AI, IA factions.

But given AI's poor financial health where the airline is saddled with working capital and aircraft loans of Rs 44,000 crore and huge losses, the government is yet to make up its mind on going ahead with the 787 order as that would mean an additional debt of almost Rs 18,000 crore. "We have yet to decide what to do. There is the option of sale and lease back to avoid more debt getting reflected on our balance sheet but that would also mean huge lease expense . This is not an easy decision to take," said a senior government official. The airline, on its part, has been pushing for this medium-capacity-mediumrange aircraft as the answer to its financial woes.

"We need to know what the government is deciding as preparations have to be made for the new plane in terms of training the pilots. Being the first of its kind aircraft in the world, there are as yet no trained pilots for the 787. We need to train our pilots ," said a senior AI official, while admitting 'issues' between IA and AI pilots over who would get to fly this plane. In the past also, AI has suffered losses with its aircraft remaining on ground due to paucity of trained pilots and cabin crew.

Now unless the government decides fast whether AI is to get the Dreamliner and the airline resolves the issue of who flies them, the national carrier's dream of a turnaround may remain unfulfilled.


Dreamliner to AI? Pilots slug it out over flying it - The Economic Times
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Old 6th Sep 2011, 10:30
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Will be interesting to see if IC pilots will be keen on moving to the 787s if a uniform pay scale is imposed for all AI and IC pilots irrespective of the fleet.
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Old 8th Sep 2011, 21:24
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Whats the news on Maintenance Trainings......
What about Structural repairs considering the variant from the past models.
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Old 9th Sep 2011, 16:08
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A common pilot type rating assigned to the B-777 and B-787...

http://fsims.faa.gov/wdocs/fsb/b-787_fsb.pdf

So do you guys think this would help NACIL save some money on TR or help improve the present conditions in any way...???

Your views...???
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Old 13th Oct 2011, 10:41
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rumours abound that 106 sets of crew from ic will be moving on to the 787 as and when they come........not interested.....i like the 320
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Old 13th Oct 2011, 11:06
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i freaking fail to understand the operational sense in moving IC crew to the B787s
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Old 13th Oct 2011, 18:04
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if anything done in air india to date made operational sense, then we wouldn't be where we are today....
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Old 14th Oct 2011, 03:06
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As of a couple of weeks ago. A friend who is a Boeing Delivery Pilot for the 787, told me that AI has cancelled their order. There are no current plans to delivery any of the 8 already painted AI aircraft. As we all know, that could change at any moment.
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