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Hainan Airlines

Old 1st May 2011, 23:45
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Hainan Airlines

Does anyone have any information on Hainan airlines? Working conditions, accommodations, living in china, training, etc. Thanks!
av8tor33 is offline  
Old 2nd May 2011, 13:04
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Join Date: Mar 2004
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Hainan

All you have to do is.......go to the top of the page, click on 'Search', type in 'Hainan Airlines' and a plethora of information will be revealed.

To save you the bother here is a precis - don't contemplate China unless you ABSOLUTELY have nowhere else to go.

Best of luck!
kilwhang is offline  
Old 10th Jul 2011, 13:22
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Hainan Airlines Assessment

A$$hole organisation. Very unprofessional Stay Away!

How about being attracted to Hainan Airlines by one precis and then before the Assessment has been completed being given another contract worth $12,000US/Year Less?

Oh, and that is not all.

We were given a Reimbursement form to fill out, including Airfare and Taxi fare, etc.

I spent about 2,000 Remenbi, but they have changed their mind and said they will not reimburse for taxi fare. I will not even be reimbursed for half.

The Simulator Assessment was a damned joke! Here it is, blow-by-blow:

This was nightmare from the start!!!

I prepared and studied diligently, for 3 weeks, to no avail.

On Friday, I went to Hainan Airlines Ticket Counter to get a free airline ticket to fly to Beijing, with a letter in my hand from the company, written in Chinese. The ticket sales girl at the HNA counter issued incomplete/wrong tickets. I was at the airport waiting 1 hour 30 minutes. She served 20 customers while keeping me waiting. I went to another Airline counter next to HNA to ask about a direct flight to Sanya. Only 3 hours flight time and 1250rmb. I should have bought it, in retrospect. Finally, HNA issued the correct free tickets. On Tuesday the flight was delayed 2 hours. So, I missed my connecting flight by 15 minutes. The joys of traveling in China. Always delays, especially when crewed by Chinese pilots!

Then, there was a failed attempt to get me on another flight. Eventually, it was decided they would pay me back, if I went to buy a ticket on a different airline. It was more expensive than the Direct Flight ticket (2000rmb versus 1250rmb), that I wanted to buy on Friday, but they said, at that time they would not pay me back, so I didn't buy it. I just cannot understand Chinese logic. I always try to make things simple for them, showing them an easier way to achieve the same or better results, but it is rejected, because they know better. Bull$hit!

I jumped in a taxi to get to the other airport terminal (3), quickly. Just as I let the taxi drive off, I was called and told to go back to the other terminal (1) and change my flight for the next day and stay overnight in the Hoya Airport hotel. The Hainan Airlines choice hotel Hoya is a MINUS 1 Star, at best. AND, No taxi wants to take you to the airport hotel, because it is so close. Be 100% sure it should cost you 10 to 20rmb, at most. Taxi Drivers in Beijing will try to give you a set price for going to the hotel, which can be more than double. Be forewarned. So, back to the other terminal, by high-speed train, that turned out to be more expensive and time consuming than going by taxi? Arriving back at the HNA ticket counter, I couldn't make the ticket sales girl understand. So, more phone calls. I have spent a lot of money on telephone calls, thankfully telephone is cheap in China, though still adds up to money spent unnecessarily. I stayed overnight in this fleabag hotel.

So, I got to Sanya Airport, middle of the next day. I got my suitcase, went to get a taxi, gave him the address in Chinese. And, he thought he would negotiate for a set fee (50rmb) . . . more expensive than using the meter. But, I know Chinese taxi driversí tricks. I said, "No! Meter." Pointing to the meter and tapping it with my finger. He got pissed off and stopped mid-way by the road side, because I was writing down his name, ID number, taxi company phone number, because I did not want his bull$hit, at the end. He looked at me very angrily and threateningly. Then he took off, driving very erratically. 30 minutes later, we arrived at the hotel. He charged me only 36 rmb. My Simulator partner, sodmised by the taxi driver, was charged 80 rmb. He just did not know the game they play. We got along very well. He has not flown in 3 months, like me. He was a bit nervous, like me.

The Sanya hotel was 10 X better than the hotel in Beijing, which I am truly accustomed to staying in for layovers, as an airline Captain, for the past 12 years. The Hoya hotel, in Beijing, was smelly and run down, full of mosquitos. I would not pay for such accommodation, from my own pockets. The hotel in Sanya was like a resort. Clean, comfortable, and quiet. Appropriate for a senior airline Captain.

The next day, the Flight Simulator experience was awful. There was a large group of Chinese pilots and their luggage getting on a very small bus, just outside the hotel lobby. We had to be at the Simulator building before 10:00. In typical Chinese fashion, they drop their luggage on the floor and in the doorway and put it on the seats, so nobody else can get on the bus or sit down. And, they just stood there looking at the bus and each other, scratching their heads and armpits and asses, not knowing what to do. Idiots! It is the typical Chinese "me first and screw you" attitude.

Finally, I had enough heat and humidity. I went to the front and told the stupid pricks to pick up their bags and put them on the seats and floor in the back of the bus and sit down in the seats back to front. Logical, huh? Then we were suddenly all on the bus and the doors closed. It took 15 minutes to board the bus!

After we got to the Simulator Building classroom, the Chinese Instructor/Examiner started to berate the Boeing 737-400 pilots represented by WASC Inc. He had assessed them the day before, telling us how sloppy they were. He was very unprofessional doing so! He spoke no English. We had a young Chinese HR girl doing Chinese-English translation, but she spoke very little English, actually, and did not translate exactly what we would say or ask? She had NO clue about Aviation-English or technical terms. AND, it was worse, when we were actually in the Flight Simulator. If we had a simulated problem or needed an Air Traffic Control clearance or permission to do something, we had to ask her more than once and she would translate. Sometimes we would ask and not get an appropriate response, so we just did what we thought was right. Often she did not understand what we were asking. The Boeing 737-400 Captains had the same experiences.

The Flight Simulator itself had mechanical and video problems, broken items and was an older style, fitted with older instruments (Pitch and bank Command Steering Bars) and older intercom panels, unfamiliar to my partner or me. The Navigation Display Panel on the Captain's side and the Co-pilot's side were too dim to easily view. The Upper Display Panel, where the Engine Instruments are located, was the same. The Brightness could not be turned up. AND, the insulting prick came forward to show me where the Brightness knobs are. Everyone knows Chinese Pilots are better than the rest of us. They go out of their way to prove it. I showed him the knobs were maxed out, but still could not see the Panels. We need the Navigation Display to navigate the aircraft and the Upper Display panel to assess any engine malfunctions, right?. The brightness could not be adjusted any brighter. They explained they did this to reduce heating. What crap! They operate every day of the year at full brightness, on real airplanes.

I complained about that and the broken side window latching mechanism missing the screw, before we started.

We had no warm-up to get a feel for that Sim. No stalls, no steep turns, no normal ILS or Visual Pattern. Nothing. In fact, the Simulator Profile we were given and told to present to the Examiner, he opened the folder, looked at it and shoved it back across the table and we did some crap he thought was appropriate. Why did I even bother studying?

So, the Flight Simulator assessment was a mess, made worse by, my Simulator partner's European airline procedures are different from my Airline's, which are again different from HNA, and the Instructor/Examiner could not appreciate that without a standard set of procedures, then a pilot is really flying solo, without any help.

My Simulator Partner was never a Co-pilot on the Boeing 737 and I was never a Co-pilot on the aircraft. In fact, I have been a Captain for the past twelve years. The training and duties and mindset and priorities are completely different for a Captain and a First Officer. All brought together under one umbrella called standardized procedures. A fact that seemed to escape the Chinese Instructor/Examiner. The Co-pilot is there to support the Captain and do want ever he needs to make a safe flight. How many accidents have happened around the world with two Captains flying together or worse, two Instructors??? In reality, they post a NOTAM, when they put two Captains or Instructors together!

The Instructor/Examiner did not know the Fuel System Limitations. He told us to turn on the Center Fuel Tank pump switches for takeoff, but that is required, when we have a much higher load of fuel than we had in the Simulator. Fuel is in Pounds, in the Sim. I am accustomed to KGs. My partner tried to explain that to him, but it was lost in translation, by the Interpreter.

The Instructor/Examiner did not understand about the application of WGS-84 (Geodetic datum) standards for the use of GPS and why my Simulator partner used different procedures (LNAV) to navigate to final approach and do the VOR non-precision approach, than are used in China, for example, where they use HDG SEL. I tried to explain it to the Instructor/Examiner, in the classroom, during debriefing. Writing WGS-84 on paper and pointing to USA, EU, Australia and put a cross through it pointing to the Chinese character I wrote for China. The Instructor/Examiner only smiled and nodded his head. I reinforced the point about procedures and callouts driving the way a Captain does his job.

Returning to Beijing was an equally nightmarish episode. We stood in the rain from an approaching typhoon, at Sanya, outside the Simulator facility, trying to catch a taxi to the airport for maybe 15 minutes. We had time, but not a lot. Upon arrival, we had a quick airport-style Chinese meal of chicken, vegetables, and rice. Insufficient for the impending ordeal getting to Beijing. Finally, we boarded the return flight to Beijing. The flight was delayed 3 hours. At one point, the pilots decided that all passengers should get off the airplane and return to the terminal to wait. We did. When the aircraft was only minutes from Beijing, we turned around and landed at Wuhan Airport, due to bad weather and thunderstorms, at Beijing Airport. We waited at Wuhan Airport 2 hours. The day was so long that the pilots were changed to a new crew.

We arrived at 02:31 in the morning! The Hoya Airport Hotel being too close to the airport, we could not find a taxi driver to take us. We tried three taxis. I even gave them a business card from the Hoya Hotel, in Chinese, but they pretended to not know the location. We finally got a taxi, but he complained and drove us around the airport property, pretending not to know the location. It just kept us from our much needed sleep even longer. We had to be in the hotel lobby at 07:30 to go by taxi to our Medical Examination. So, we maybe got 3 to 4 hours sleep. We were, all, hungry, tired and frustrated, by the experience.

Was this a fair assessment? Definitely not! It was complete bull$hit.

The other pilots I met, from Spain, Brazil, and Mexico, Airbus 330 and Boeing 767 Captains, all felt this was unfair treatment and assessment. One Boeing 767 Captain was told by the Chinese Instructor/Examiner, "We don't really need 767 Captains." Some were sent home without doing their Medical or ATPL Written Exams and made to feel unwelcomed by the Chinese. One well-dressed Hispanic Captain, smoking a cigar, told me the Chinese changed their contract from what was originally offered, by $8,000US less money and other contract items.

That was the situation. Unfortunately, the Chinese contracts pay the best. They have all the money in the world, now, and feel pretty arrogant, because we come to them, from around the world, on our knees begging for a job. That's life.

Thought you should know, so that others whom follow in our path can avoid such frustrations and disappointments, not to mention wasted time and money.

Foreign Captains should avoid Hainan Airlines.

After you read the contract and the terms and conditions where the pricks fine you and deduct it from your bonus for a QAR or some obscure SOP infraction, then you will wish you had taken your experience elsewhere.

Hainan Airlines or HNA snitches, if you're reading this, I don't give a crap. You're a bunch of flaming assholes. Get your shit together, before criticising anyone else!
FWRWATPLX2 is offline  
Old 11th Jul 2011, 01:10
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And the story keeps on repeating itself!!! TIC! This Is China!

For new candidates it appears that conditions are deteriorating FAST!

Good luck to all!

Last edited by JotaJota; 12th Jul 2011 at 16:42.
JotaJota is offline  
Old 11th Jul 2011, 04:06
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FWRWATPLX2, thanks for the effort to write all this down for everyone to read. These events are repeated ad nauseum throughout China with recurring consistency.

Postscript to your story : Wait until you get to the signing stage, when you will be offered an inferior contract with a subsidiary flying a lesser aircraft which requires - guess what - a TR funded out of your own pocket. The saga continues ...
ReverseFlight is offline  
Old 11th Jul 2011, 04:31
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Originally Posted by FWRWATPLX2
Foreign Captains should avoid Hainan Airlines.
Sorry you had so much trouble. It's typical, unfortunately, but not universal. Did you use an agency or were you on your own?

I went the agency route and they were able to smooth a lot of these things out. Hainan wasn't one that I interviewed with, though.
Rotorhead1026 is offline  
Old 21st Apr 2012, 11:41
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Great

Hi
I have stared my job last week It seems great ,I regret leaving kuwait but this is good too and they pay well ,roughly I cash 15700 USD every month bassed in the US
glock320 is offline  
Old 23rd Apr 2012, 10:00
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Agree... sounds like a bogus post. "started my job last week and making millions"....

Fantasy!

LOL.... Been there, done that!
JotaJota is offline  
Old 23rd Apr 2012, 21:02
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with all due respect:

quote:


"for sure you do NOT cash 15.700 US$ a month.
Sorry to highlight this fact, but please be honest and do not bring in wrong facts. You do not have this money now !! " Unquote

My experience for all it is worth to the flamethrowers:
whereas the selection process is long, exhausting and frustrating I can say that after 26 months with Hainan I always got my money on time and since 1.July 2011 I take home 12.5 K $ p.m. plus 3K$ p.m.bonus payed at the end of every 6 months(18K&).
Maybe I am just lucky to be in a fleet where my experience is appreciated and at least some F/Os are open to suggestions. 22 QARs resulted in a reasonable talk with the fleet chief and no penalties whatsoever.
just my two cents
tcas69 is offline  
Old 23rd Apr 2012, 22:03
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What TCAS said... $15-18k per month average is the going rate. But be VERY careful which agency/airline you pick. That's what's going to make the difference!

I ALWAYS got paid on time while working for a Hainan Air Group airline for several years.

TCAS - 22 QAR's and you still have a job?
JotaJota is offline  
Old 23rd Apr 2012, 22:53
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I don't buy the pitch that it is a good deal.

1) They certainly make loyalty an issue. Front-load the work and back-load the pay via bonuses.

2) In a sane world, you would not get called on 22 QARs, but the Chinese are the world's top micro-managers. Where else would you have to answer for every 10 knot gust of wind on an ILS or other trivial BS?

Will they ever have the sense to listen to the experts and incorporate QAR data into better training? No way.

3) Experience is appreciated? What does that mean - they hired you as a direct entry captain? Free beer if you have more than 15000 hrs total time?

What about their medical games? Having fun with the CAAC mandated head-scan theatrics?

4) At least some F/Os open to suggestions? That means "at least some are not idiots" and "at least some appreciate my experience."

In my opinion, it is all a bunch of lucrative crap. Pilots are high paid airplane operating hookers, and the ones in China are the leaders in swallowing the big one for money.
rollingscissors is offline  
Old 24th Apr 2012, 12:44
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woow

That's rather hermetic and hieroglyphical my friend !
Plutos is offline  
Old 24th Apr 2012, 14:44
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Join Date: Mar 2011
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Yes, and all true.
But I have an added twist.

As far as QAR violations, if they didn't do this, the Chinese would fly like they drive, and do everything else. They follow no rules on a daily basis, and appear to like to rebel against them.

If they didn't fine them for QAR's, got knows what kind of weird @#$%t they would do in the cockpit.

Part of my job, in addition to the left seat, is flying right seat with new captains. It is part of their upgrade process. I see the rebellion every time I perform this function.

The QAR fines are not enough. I would type what I really think they should do, but the moderator would delete my post, and maybe me. Actually I typed it, and backspaced thru it and retyped the previous sentence.

PMAIL me for the full story.
USMCProbe is offline  
Old 24th Apr 2012, 19:01
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Oh come on, it can't be that bad!
JotaJota is offline  
Old 25th Apr 2012, 10:08
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Join Date: Mar 2011
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I have had more QAR's and screw ups flying 10 one day trips with new Captains than all FO's have accumulated with me combined, in over a year and a half. A couple of new F3's almost have caught the FO's up, but the new Captains are still in the lead.
USMCProbe is offline  
Old 28th Apr 2012, 21:05
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So Vietnam was not so bad after all Mr JR.

Some of us are aware of the clowns that arrived from the USA. Needleess to say there is 1 corrupt one left.
EX BLUE STORK is offline  
Old 29th Apr 2012, 16:25
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FWRWATPLX2,

Good brief regarding the Chinese and good advice to heed regarding contracts and money, but your post says as much about yourself as it does the Chinese.

Seriously, you complained about a missing screw in a window latching mechanism, in a simulator used for interviews? Your tone about that and apparently lecturing them about LNAV and other procedures would raise a serious red flag with me if I was in the simulator interviewing a candidate. CA and FO duties? Give me a break, it's an interview. Go with the flow, keep it safe and simple and work around the differences. They want you to use heading select in the terminal area and on LNAV/RNAV approaches? Smile, go ahead and do it and then do it the right way on the line. The fuel pump issue? Just ask them what they want and do it. There is probably a good chance the flunky sim interviewer could have been the bottom of the barrel 737 guy or worse, trying to "straighten him out" probably won't go well no matter what in any country let alone what i've heard about the Chinese. I know the average US airline pilot deals with enough training simulator instructor knuckleheads doing their own thing at companies that have been around for 75 years, and that is speaking the same language. I can only understand the problems with language barriers and the expansion that is going on in China along with their attitudes.

As for the cabs and the unhelpful personel? I've seen the same scam in every country I've been in. I've handled it with everything from a polite request to telling one he would be dead by my hands before he hit the water while driving like a lunatic across a bridge in New York. Unhelpful ticket agents? Again, I've seen the same with my company in the US. I can only imagine the same situation speaking a different language.

It was a valuable post and anyone considering working in China to learn from your experience. Sorry for the nitpicking.
WhatsaLizad? is offline  

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