indian nationals on fata

[Kelvin757]

Its very much true that many 250hrs guys will never make it as pilots in India. Even if Airlines starts to hire like in 2006 there would be still thousand of guys without jobs. Sad but true....

[jimmygill]

I do have a question for you. In my current position, among other things, I am involved in screening DEC for an airline. I recently screened an Indian National who was a 320TRI for a privately owned Indian Airline who's headquarters are in Mumbai.

If things are so great why would he want to embark on a commute of at least one connection, in excess of 24 hours travel time one way and have 10 days off every 21 days?
....
..

I am still trying to figure out just what your point is, but I have so many other things to do......

He will like to embark for the commute for the same reason as hundreds of pilots are willing to embark on a commute to India. May be they have shady certificates too, may be they have issues with their earlier
employers too.

My point is exactly the same which is making so many people angry here.


@challenger05

I live by a code and the code is simple: Dont hit something you din plan to hit and even then be gentle for heavens sake!

Well my code is even simpler: Don't worry too much about collateral damage.
And yes as far as the statistics and employment is going to be, we will come back
again sometimes later, cause only time will be the test.

[TopTup]

Haven't had a good laugh like this in a while......too funny. THANKS!

May I summise?
1. The experienced pilots (Indian and expat, TRE/I, Capt & FO) with jobs with first hand experience within Indian aviation are all wrong;
2. The Moderators of this forum with extensive experience of such topics (reading, screening, seen it all before: extensively) are all wrong;
3. The other forums from the ME, Dunnunda & Godzone, Nth America, Fragrant Harbour are all wrong whereby those WITH EXPERIENCE offer their knowledge and advice on airline hiring, how get that first job, who to avoid, where to go, what to do to get it;
4. The key into airlines from shiny CPL (with NO commercial experience) to pretty jet is to remove those with those jobs by forming a union to act as a witch hunt, lobby the government, name names of those they deem not worthy and hence in their birthright job.

How'd I go?

In the words of the Great Homer Simpson: "All the world is stupid but me."

[pree56]

@topup

please dont comment unless you really know about the horrible truth of Indian aviation sir.
Even though we are talking about only 12-15 FATA Indian FOs, those 12 to 15 vacancies are to us wannabes, what water is in a dry desert to a thirsty and tired traveler.

None of the airlines which have recruited since 2008, have ever advertised that anyone with any ICAO CPL can apply for jobs as trainee FOs. It is clearly mentioned in EVERY bloody advertisement that Indian National with Indian CPL and Indian FRTOL and Indian Class 1 medical is MANDATORY for applying for job as trainee FO.

you people come from so called "first world" countries. Can you not udnerstand something as simple as this ?

I congratulate agent123 and jimmygill for bringing out this issue.

we will fight tooth and nail and see to it that those guys who got in through shady means without converting their foreign licences to Indian CPL, are kicked out left, right and center.

I dont CARE whethere or not I get a job after chucking them out. The only thing Im bothered is that THOSE FATA Indian FO guys need to be kicked out with pressure and lobby from media and political channels. (dont worry I know how to get such things done. Im not looking for advise on that here.)

LET ANY FELLOW INDIAN CPL HOLDER GET THAT JOB IN PLACE OF THOSE WHO TRIED TO GET IN THROUGH THE BACKDOOR UNDER THE GUISE OF EASY FAA + FATA.

That is our short term goal for now. Happy ?

Though we dont really have to spell out our agenda and plan of action, since u were so curious, here's what we plan to do :

1. Out of all the expats woking in India (based on FATA RTI records), 85% are line captains and only 15% are TREs, TRIs.
this clearly shows that Indian nationals are not being upgraded fairly.
if expats are really being hired for bringing inexperienced Indian nationals upto to their "so called first world standards", then there should have been more TREs and TRI expats !! why so many line captains only ?????

2. there are many expats commanders with ONLY 200 to 500 hours time on type, AT THE TIME OF JOINING THE AIRLINE, and ZERO HOURS CAPTAIN HOURS ON TYPE.
clearly shows that there is extremely shady and underhanded dealings going on with expat recruitments and contracts from these bloody creepy recruiting agencies.
there are expat FO's who have bought their type ratings and paid commission also and are literally BUYING COMMAND HOURS and UPGRADES.

[jimmygill]

4. The key into airlines from shiny CPL (with NO commercial experience) to pretty jet is to remove those with those jobs by forming a union to act as a witch hunt, lobby the government, name names of those they deem not worthy and hence in their birthright job.

Commercial Experience is obtained only after the commercial license. Otherwise you are completely right, thats the key.

In order to protect your job (of course not in as shiny jets as we are talking of), someone else had lobbied long time back... if only USA visa regulations allowed Indian students to to instruct after getting the CFI certificates at US schools, thousands of USA CFI would have been jobless... you are acting like a kid who has a candy and gets perturbed when another one merely tries to get one.. doesn't suit your age and qualifications...


@pree

only 15% are TREs, TRIs.

Most of these 15% have to function more like line captains then TRE/TRI. Why upgrade an Indian F/O if you know in 2-3 years he will leave for SQ, EQ et al.

[Dualinput]

guys,
for those of you who think that airlines are NOT doing enough to upgrade FOs to capts, let me tell you it is so not true! most of the airlines (if not all) are doing their best to upgrade copilots.

airlines have started expanding again and the reality is that there are not enough capts available! so we will see more exapts (capts) flying for jet, spice, indigo and KF atleast for the next 3-6 years...

the reality is that india as of now is not ready to do away with expats...not for the next 3 years atleast
cheers,
google

[pree56]

the reality is that india as of now is not ready to do away with expats...not for the next 3 years atleast

so how does that explain the 20 to 30 odd Indian nationals who are flying on FATA as first officers in India ?
Some who have got FATAs very recently through obvious shady means.
(All of them with less than 250 hours TT and ZERO JET TIME while joining Kingfisher and Indigo airlines )

All those who have been calling us twisted and bitter creeps .. answer this simple question :

1. Would you rather want to be flying with a fresh FO who has EARNED his way to the right seat through unbiased and fair COMPETITION ? .. or would you rather fly with a guy/girl who has bribed his way to the right seat, or by using connections ?


2. If you still have no problems in these several Indian national guys/girls flying on FATA as FO, then why not do away completely with the Indian CPL ?? ... lets just have validation of foreign CPLs and allow anyone and everyone to be given an equal opportunity through fair competition.
Let merit prevail.

Lets face it. All these Indian nationals flying on FATA right now as first officers do not have even an Indian SPL.
They have never attempted DGCA exams or have failed in those exams in multiple attempts and have resorted to using short cuts to get to the right seat.

Therefore we are going to use our own methods (HOOK OR CROOK) to put these guys where they RIGHTFULLY BELONG .. (ie. ALONG WITH US IN THE LONG QUEUE FOR JOBS)

[cyrilroy21]

Quick question

According to the dgca rules for an issue of FATA for co-pilots on aircraft having AUW exceeding 5700kg they need the following

b) as co-pilot, the flight crew should have:-
i) Minimum 100 hours on type as P2, or
ii) Minimum 500 hours total on multi-engine, or
iii) Minimum 1000 hours total flying experience

How many of these Indian nationals have that kind of experience .

If not isnt it a violation of the dgca CARS to issue them an FATA ?

[pree56]

good point cyrilroy21,

to answer your questions :

How many of these Indian nationals have that kind of experience .

NONE

If not isnt it a violation of the dgca CARS to issue them an FATA ?

YES !

Agent123 has forwarded me the excel spreadsheets he got from DGCA and it clearly mentions the experience levels of those Indian FATA FO guys.

NONE OF THEM MEET THE MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS FOR ISSUE OF FATA !!

So, guys, you can see the writing on the wall!
these guys have got their FATAs ILLEGALLY obviously by using money and JUGAD.
It's upto all of you.
We can sit and do nothing about it like mute spectators hopelessly, while these guys happily fly jets........
...............OR ...............
we can get together and do something to get rid of the whole lot of them.
This is where we really need to support our fellow members like agent123 and jimmygill for bringing to light this issue.

[Dualinput]

pree,
FOs on FATA has nothing to do the capts requirement in the next 3-5 years....I dint mention anything on FATA at all....My point is about the capts requirement and the current upgrades happening....apologies for posting it in the wrong thread.. I agree completely that FATA guys (Indian FOs) shouldnt be flying...

However, from what I know, no new FATAs were issued by DGCA to Indian FOs after Oct 2008....only renewals happened (I could be wrong here)...And yes, there are only a handful of guys remaining on FATA now.....You mentioned guys getting FATA recently...whats the source of that info? are those new guys or guys who got FATA renewed?

[TopTup]

Where ANY pilot has been put into a role that he'she is unqualified for then action MUST be taken. In this sense I agree with your actions: but how you go about your actions is in question. The media should be the last option when all other proper means have been exhausted.

This is actually refreshing to see you, the unemployed CPL holders, getting off your tails and doing something. I trust you are doing the same with your study and applications to seek experience on any aircraft anywhere you can, not just India.

Next, I trust you take the same action against the corrupt officials who cut pathways for their sons/daughters to gain employment over yourselves.

Next I trust you'll also do the same to expose the fraudulent and corrupt officials siphoning the salaries received from the airline/government for the expats.....one of the main reasons for resistance to the concept of removing them.

Then I trust you'll also expose the fraudulent training practices keeping unsafe and dangerous pilots in the LHS and RHS of these jet transports.

In the mean time I hope you out the same effort into studying for and searching for a job, any job in aviation, anywhere to gain the experience you simply do not have. If not, then everything that the Moderators and others wrote here is proven true.

Or will you just settle for a polarized view of ignoring everything else once you have achieved the job you see as better deserved for yourself? And I will admit in many cases perhaps rightly so.

Pree.... you are showing your remarkable immaturity and lack of knowledge. It is understood that the expat Capts are paid $15 k per month by thge airline/government. The agency takes it's cut ($800-$1200 I believe). The expat gets $10.5 k of that the rest. Where does the rest go? Siphoned to the self implemented "management fees" paid to themselves in the expat management offices. Oh... but you've done your research on this topic haven't you! Also, a pilot with say 6000 LHS hrs on a 767 (15000+ hrs TT) and < 200 hrs on a 777 I believe more than qualified!!! "IF" he/she also meets local employment requirements. Again, polarized view points based on immature anger and frustration, not facts. Put the same effort into getting a job anywhere and it doesn't have to be a pretty jet!!!

An Aussie pilot started a thread asking for advice for low time pilots seeking work in Asia. He was considering trying to get work on a turbo prop but happy to go anywhere, anyhow for a basic C152 job. He was shouted down by some here (Jimmygill & others) and told to stay in his own backyard. Wow! A kid is willing to pack his bags, leave home, sacrifice so much just to get experience anywhere, anyhow. Yet so many of you in the Indian sector flat out refuse to do the same, ie fly a prop or seek work outside your own country / leave your comfort zone. A kid who also paid for his training, is in debt, etc is told to stick to his own side of the street and not look for jobs that so many of you deem below you (props in remote regions and parts of the world).

See ya kids! I'm with the Moderators on this one! What would those of us with a few decades of experience know??

"When I was 16 I thought my father was the most ignorant and naive person in the world. When I turned 21 I couldn't believe how much he'd learnt in 5 years." Mark Twain

[condorbaaz]

Why Pilots leave India

The single reason why pilots leave their own country, other than unemployment is to save on TAXES. Which in India I hear are amongst the highest .
Second many private airlines have a day to day roster, even for long haul, except maybe Jet Airways.
Hence with ten days off, after 24 hr commute may actually improve Q O L

[niksmathew24]

An Aussie pilot started a thread asking for advice for low time pilots seeking work in Asia. He was considering trying to get work on a turbo prop but happy to go anywhere, anyhow for a basic C152 job. He was shouted down by some here (Jimmygill & others) and told to stay in his own backyard. Wow! A kid is willing to pack his bags, leave home, sacrifice so much just to get experience anywhere, anyhow. Yet so many of you in the Indian sector flat out refuse to do the same, ie fly a prop or seek work outside your own country / leave your comfort zone. A kid who also paid for his training, is in debt, etc is told to stick to his own side of the street and not look for jobs that so many of you deem below you (props in remote regions and parts of the world).

@ TopTup
I am not against guys packing their bags and doing rounds for a job and I believe that many other guys in this forum are also like that. In fact we're all on this forum looking for a job opening in any corner of the world.
But what you saw in that thread was just reality. You know how things work in India and you know how much chance an Aussie kid would stand with 200hrs and a 152 rating. So I think the guys were just telling him how things are done here.
But at the same time I've to say this. Even though he was told the reality, I think our sub continent boys were a bit too harsh in telling him that.

[jimmygill]

airlines have started expanding again and the reality is that there are not enough capts available! so we will see more exapts (capts) flying for jet, spice, indigo and KF atleast for the next 3-6 years...

One more reality is that there are not enough first officers... if they upgrade and put these first officer for command training they will have to cancel many a flights... not as much due to lack of captains but due to lack of first officers.

And don't tell me that AIR India doesn't have upgradeable first officers to replace the three expat first officers on 777.

Its also very evident that few airlines have been making new recruits wait almost 2 years to initiate F/O training.

I have data on them, of course people here will not like all the names printed..

the reality is that india as of now is not ready to do away with expats...not for the next 3 years atleast

Of course they will stay, but we want a higher percentage (40% or above) of TRE/TRIs. Else these waves of expansion will be coming like usual and extensions will precede perceived expansions.

[jimmygill]

A kid who also paid for his training, is in debt, etc is told to stick to his own side of the street and not look for jobs that so many of you deem below you (props in remote regions and parts of the world).

TopTup, you arrange for job and the VISA I will send Indian CPL holders in hundreds. Do we have a deal here?

Despite the VISA and TSA hurdles there are still a lot of Indian CFI working in USA for dirt cheap pay* packets just to get the flying experience. OF course a lot of them are illegals and a good proportion on F1 VISAs at incredibly expensive schools.

The world is not under any obligation to be in consonance with your wanton experiences. Do not generalize from your experience.

Then I trust you'll also expose the fraudulent training practices keeping unsafe and dangerous pilots in the LHS and RHS of these jet transports.

Your trust is well placed. But our first task is to get the entry field leveled. Lobbying is not a gainful employment and in India we do not have unemployment benefits.

*Reduced to real terms, the pay packet is just for name, the whole thing is actually a hidden pay to fly.

[TopTup]

JG: "TopTup, you arrange for job and the VISA I will send Indian CPL holders in hundreds. Do we have a deal here?"

This is my point precisly. Why must others do it for you guys? Pilots from America, Canada, NZ, Australia, UK, etc have for many years found work in remote parts of the world such as Africa, Papua New Guinea, lesser developed parts of Europe (many of the "stans") to get a start. They did it themselves, driven by passion and determination. They still do. They organized their own visas and airfares and live in conditions that are surprising at best, just to get that step into the door, those hours of experience that are GOLD. I have no standing on other country's immigration laws and work permits so can't help you there! So instead, do what the others do and find the countries you can work in and target them!!!! The world does not begin and end in India.

(See previous threads on this forum on the topic of going overseas for a start).

Good luck with your agenda. I sincerely mean that. I just hope it is not polarized into a self-serving agenda stopping the second your own (members of this union) personal needs are met and ignoring the bigger picture of what really goes on and prevents others to gain rightful employment.

[jimmygill]

I just hope it is not polarized into a self-serving agenda stopping the second your own (members of this union) personal needs are met and ignoring the bigger picture of what really goes on and prevents others to gain rightful employment.

It will not.

[jimmygill]

This is my point precisly. Why must others do it for you guys? Pilots from America, Canada, NZ, Australia, UK, etc have for many years found work in remote parts of the world such as Africa, Papua New Guinea, lesser developed parts of Europe (many of the "stans") to get a start. They did it themselves, driven by passion and determination. They still do. They organized their own visas and airfares and live in conditions that are surprising at best, just to get that step into the door, those hours of experience that are GOLD. I have no standing on other country's immigration laws and work permits so can't help you there! So instead, do what the others do and find the countries you can work in and target them!!!! The world does not begin and end in India.

My precise point... its possible to get a work VISA in south east asia, *stans and most remote parts but not in USA, NZ, CANADA, Australia and UK. Now we are merely talking about restricting that free supply of VISA on a quid pro quo basis. If I could legally have worked in USA doing instruction flying I would not be too worried about people coming here and flying on the basis of very experience which I and others have been denied in these expat's respective countries.

I don't want a Mexican to fly in India unless Mexico allows Indians to fly in Mexico. Period.

Every body with CPL starts with 200 or 250 hrs.. what matters is availability of venues for flying.

[Phil Squares]

If I could legally have worked in USA doing instruction flying I would not be too worried about people coming here and flying on the basis of very experience which I and others have been denied in these expat's respective countries.

Reckon I am qualified to make the above observation, being an Indian national flying the A320 in India as a line Captain on an Indian ATPL. My previous jobs included working many long years as a FAA CFI (Flight Instructor) and later as a Regional Pilot, in North America. Years of hard work before I moved into the A320. However I cherish every single one of these years, because I believe I became a better person first, and maybe even a better pilot!

I did forget to mention, I sponsored my own Flight Training, and my US Bachelor’s Degree (read-NO Bank/Family loans) by working on Merchant vessels for 10 years soon after High school.

After 3 years of flying in India it’s time to head back to the US. The small mindedness, pettiness, sense of self-entitlement, unscrupulous, un-professional behavior I experience, leaves me little choice. In India way too much importance is given to getting the job, often employing practices that are not above-board. It’s almost like the get rich quick Nigerian 419 scams! Pity, this country has potential; unfortunately it will never be realized.

Despite the VISA and TSA hurdles there are still a lot of Indian CFI working in USA for dirt cheap pay* packets just to get the flying experience. OF course a lot of them are illegals and a good proportion on F1 VISAs at incredibly expensive schools.

Ok, so now I am confused. On one hand you say you would gladly move to the US to get experience, but then on the you say you can't legally accomplish that. Why? You have made reference to other Indian pilots who do that and you have at least one Indian pilot who did that, returned to India and left again.

Are you for real? You simply want everything handed to you. You don't want to work hard like everyone else! How do you get this sense of entitlement? Or better yet, what gives you the right to demand it?

Like I said before, you need to get a life!!! If you spent this much time, energy and venom getting a job you wouldn't be posting these idiotic postings on this fourm.

But, with that said, it is great entertainment!!!

AMF!!!

[skytrek21]

God knows where these 2 clowns JG and Pree are getting their info from, but there definitely aren't 20-30 Nationals on FATA. When I worked at Indigo there were only 7 on FATA (from 2008-2010) and now there are 3 of them and all 3 of them are in the process of getting their Indian licenses. So you can try all you want to get these guys fired, but that won't happen as they already have a couple of thousand hours on the A320 now. Out of that 2 of them are already leaving Indigo for greener pastures. I know KF has a few F/O's still on FATA...but again that does not total 20 for sure. Don't know what info DGCA is releasing...

sky