Lion Air, Eagle Jet/ CAE and P2F
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Lion Air, Eagle Jet/ CAE and P2F
So, you want to fly Boeing 737's, your looking at “line training” either through CAE or EagleJet. You have read a little online about the schemes and the common gripes. Well here is a little extra information from someone who is currently on the P2F scheme.
Please, before I hear a huge list of complaints on PPRUNE about how paying to fly is worse then selling your soul to the devil; do you really think that people enjoy forking out thousands and thousands to pay to work- don’t be stupid. (Queue gripe about how we are stupid). There are four main groups that are really complaining about this. Firstly, those who have completed flight school, naive enough to think they would get a job with a ME CPL IR. Yes, there are the lucky few straight out of an integrated school who will, but on the whole, and in the current climate, I am sorry your dreams were smashed and your now unemployed with ten’s of thousands of debt and moaning about it online. Grow a pair and get another job while you sit it out. The second group are current pilots, who are worried that these “newbie P2F pilots” are firstly, only in the RHS because they have the money to be there and are not qualified for the job. Rightly so, but we still have to do the same exams and training as every other pilot in that seat. Sure, the experience of flying turbo props for years might not be there, and you might not know the difference between Cat F and G airspace but you won’t find a more enthusiastic or determined F/O. Complaining to us is not going to do anything- speak to your management or unions and refuse to fly with the P2F’s and see what they say. I agree that it is detrimental to flight safety to have a pilot up front who is the better off rather than the better skilled in theory. Your complaints are falling on deaf ears here. Secondly, the other group are current First Officer’s who’s jobs are being “taken” by these pilots, who are not only working for free, but paying the airline to fly for them; or having their terms and conditions eroded because of this. It is awful; I sympathise, but it is the same of any job market. Whether it be car manufacturing being outsourced to China for cheaper labour, the principle is the same; albeit outrageous that it is the case.
So now to Lion Air.
Currently the airline operates around 47 737’s, with 2 or 3 900ER’s being delivered every month in their “controlled expansion plan”. Just as a pointer as to what is to come, the USA FAA and Boeing are more than happy to let the Lion pilots come into the USA to pick up the new aircraft to take them to Indonesia, but Lion Air are never allowed to fly into the USA because the safety and attitude concerns of the Lion Crews, are rightly, blacklisted, and from Europe and America. Indeed, the only way the Lion delivery pilots are evern allowed to fly out of America, is that Boeing “employs” them as pilots working for them in a loop hole in the regulations.
So far this year, Lion Air have had more than 5 runway evacuations. The aircraft do not carry charts/ maps. There are “photo copies” of “photo copies” provided, however, often these are unreadable- would someone from Jeppesen please take note! Even when they are eligible, they are out of date. There are even a couple of instances of Lion Aircraft landing at the wrong airport, or turning up at the airport and landing on the wrong runway.
There is a complete disregard for flight time limitation; one instance of a pilot going more than 160 hours over. Another instance of an ex-pat pilot P2F pilot, when refusing to exceed his 110 hour per calendar month limit, being called more than 5 times by one of the deputy chief pilots (Sooleiman Makartot/ Rio Franky), and eventually being given the ultimatum of flying or being kicked off the “course”.
The regulations governing Indonesian aviation are CASA. I have toilet paper that means more to me than it does to the Lion management. By the way, if you do venture to Indonesia, you will need to carry loo roll with you a lot (along with Jep Charts)….that is if you can find a loo vs. a fly infested hole in the ground, surrounded by an inch of water that has trickled down someone’s backside. Great.
Scheduling is via SMS Text message and an online system called Geneva via their web based crew portal .The online rosta is about 10 percent accurate, it is always revised via SMS as the scheduling is done that night for the following day, so you are on constant standby and can never plan to do anything. I have received texts at 2am and 3am for a flight at 6am to Singapore. I refused, and then, I still would get a bang on the door from the irate driver telling you to hurry up. This happens once or twice a month to most of the expatriate crews that I have spoken too.
Currently there are about 80 expatriate pilots at Lion through CAE and Eagle; Lion plans to have more than 100+ by the end of 2010, as well as opening up their ageing 747-400 aircraft to the Eagle and CAE schemes, flying to their one and only destination, Jeddah. Accommodation is provided for CAE in Harmony Apartments, the Eagle pilots are told about the Harris hotel, and then are expected to find their own feet from there. Being told about the hotel is your indoctrination and introduction to the company and possible the only thing you will hear that makes sense from Ms. Meylda, the secretary to the Head of Flight Operations, “Captain” Filemon- whatever that title means!
Let me, at this point, point out that it is not just the First Officers who are paying to fly, there are indeed Captains on these “courses”. I am still trying to figure out what kind of airline in the world has their Captains and First Officer paying to fly for them! Madness.
You would try to leave knowing this wouldn’t you, if you had been stupid enough to come in the first place! Ha. Lion Air’s MD Rushdi Kirani (excuse the incorrect spelling sir), originally invented the ticketing system and software in use through the whole of Indonesia. He then opened up his own airline, and surprisingly, all the flights at Lion are full…sheer coincidence. Anyway, back to my point about trying to leave. The immigration office has “ties”/ bribe money to stop you leaving at the airport. On entry into Indonesia, you are initially given a tourist visa, and then, on completion of your “ground school” which was sitting in a classroom while the examiner told us the answers, you are then issued with a KITAS and work visa. This is in your passport, along with a “single entry” visa. So, if you want to leave the country now, you can’t, unless you have written permission a month in advance. Now imagine the scenario that a loved one dies, and you need to leave the country. I would almost say imagine leaving the country for a holiday, however, in your contract, holidays are banned, much like freedom of speech is with the gag clause. You are only allowed to leave to renew your licence/ medical.
It is my understanding that Indonesian law forbids working for free and that there is, like in most countries a minimum wage that needs paid. Not so the case with the P2F’s. Rumours, this being PPRUNE, are that the Head of Training is pocketing this small amount of compulsory salary money from over 80 of us now, in collaboration with a certain secretary, to an offshore account in New Zealand…
Back to the flying. All the communication from ground personnel and the majority of the flight attendants is in Bahasa which keeps you in the “loop”- the few that do speak a little English, it is well below standard. The Line training Captains English is good, however when you are released after training, the majority of line captains speak very simple English, indeed, there are a few Captains that do not speak one word of English which makes for an interesting game of Charades while flying a 70 tonne jet at 41,000ft with no map.
NOTAMS and Weather. I am not going to even bother telling you about the token documents you receive, SOMETIMES. Crew briefings. Say what? Best, get yourself a smart phone and check out the weather and Notams on that if you still plan on coming. Many of the places we fly to don’t have internet access, fire cover at the airport, or civilisation. Indeed, flying into Papua I think it was, there was a scantily clad man with a bow and arrow firing it at another scantily clad man with a bow and arrow…on the taxi way.
Lion, trying to maximise profits, as if having the staff paying to work for them was not enough, now aim for a quick turnaround or “fast track”, however, this just results in sometimes violent arguments erupting either between the flight crew, flight attendants, baggage handlers or dispatchers. Someone is getting it and its not pretty. No training was received about this new policy, merely an email (in Bahasa) telling you to, in so many words, haul ass. Since this “new” policy, there have been many incidents; indeed, one of my colleagues had an emergency diversion due to a fire in the cargo hold, whilst another had an explosion on landing.
You would think that, the authorities in Indonesia would do something- but the corruption is so bad that a blind eye is turned to nearly everything that is not white washed or bribed away.
Indeed, I really could go on….for hours about many other aspects of this unsafe and dangerous operation. I just wished to share my experience and hope that others will take heed. I am certain this will not stop the P2F madness from continuing, or will it stop the well heeled ME CPL IR’s from gaining experience in this way. Who is to blame for this situation, I am not sure. This “course” does lead to a job, or advantage over the non jet experienced pilot whether you like it or not, however, next time Mr. Cathay 747 Captain, you say P2F’s have no experience…well…we have stories at least, and surely, as you know it all, you want to have us up front for a giggle or two…certainly, if we survive Lion Air and manage to leave Indonesia, we will be smiling.
Please, before I hear a huge list of complaints on PPRUNE about how paying to fly is worse then selling your soul to the devil; do you really think that people enjoy forking out thousands and thousands to pay to work- don’t be stupid. (Queue gripe about how we are stupid). There are four main groups that are really complaining about this. Firstly, those who have completed flight school, naive enough to think they would get a job with a ME CPL IR. Yes, there are the lucky few straight out of an integrated school who will, but on the whole, and in the current climate, I am sorry your dreams were smashed and your now unemployed with ten’s of thousands of debt and moaning about it online. Grow a pair and get another job while you sit it out. The second group are current pilots, who are worried that these “newbie P2F pilots” are firstly, only in the RHS because they have the money to be there and are not qualified for the job. Rightly so, but we still have to do the same exams and training as every other pilot in that seat. Sure, the experience of flying turbo props for years might not be there, and you might not know the difference between Cat F and G airspace but you won’t find a more enthusiastic or determined F/O. Complaining to us is not going to do anything- speak to your management or unions and refuse to fly with the P2F’s and see what they say. I agree that it is detrimental to flight safety to have a pilot up front who is the better off rather than the better skilled in theory. Your complaints are falling on deaf ears here. Secondly, the other group are current First Officer’s who’s jobs are being “taken” by these pilots, who are not only working for free, but paying the airline to fly for them; or having their terms and conditions eroded because of this. It is awful; I sympathise, but it is the same of any job market. Whether it be car manufacturing being outsourced to China for cheaper labour, the principle is the same; albeit outrageous that it is the case.
So now to Lion Air.
Currently the airline operates around 47 737’s, with 2 or 3 900ER’s being delivered every month in their “controlled expansion plan”. Just as a pointer as to what is to come, the USA FAA and Boeing are more than happy to let the Lion pilots come into the USA to pick up the new aircraft to take them to Indonesia, but Lion Air are never allowed to fly into the USA because the safety and attitude concerns of the Lion Crews, are rightly, blacklisted, and from Europe and America. Indeed, the only way the Lion delivery pilots are evern allowed to fly out of America, is that Boeing “employs” them as pilots working for them in a loop hole in the regulations.
So far this year, Lion Air have had more than 5 runway evacuations. The aircraft do not carry charts/ maps. There are “photo copies” of “photo copies” provided, however, often these are unreadable- would someone from Jeppesen please take note! Even when they are eligible, they are out of date. There are even a couple of instances of Lion Aircraft landing at the wrong airport, or turning up at the airport and landing on the wrong runway.
There is a complete disregard for flight time limitation; one instance of a pilot going more than 160 hours over. Another instance of an ex-pat pilot P2F pilot, when refusing to exceed his 110 hour per calendar month limit, being called more than 5 times by one of the deputy chief pilots (Sooleiman Makartot/ Rio Franky), and eventually being given the ultimatum of flying or being kicked off the “course”.
The regulations governing Indonesian aviation are CASA. I have toilet paper that means more to me than it does to the Lion management. By the way, if you do venture to Indonesia, you will need to carry loo roll with you a lot (along with Jep Charts)….that is if you can find a loo vs. a fly infested hole in the ground, surrounded by an inch of water that has trickled down someone’s backside. Great.
Scheduling is via SMS Text message and an online system called Geneva via their web based crew portal .The online rosta is about 10 percent accurate, it is always revised via SMS as the scheduling is done that night for the following day, so you are on constant standby and can never plan to do anything. I have received texts at 2am and 3am for a flight at 6am to Singapore. I refused, and then, I still would get a bang on the door from the irate driver telling you to hurry up. This happens once or twice a month to most of the expatriate crews that I have spoken too.
Currently there are about 80 expatriate pilots at Lion through CAE and Eagle; Lion plans to have more than 100+ by the end of 2010, as well as opening up their ageing 747-400 aircraft to the Eagle and CAE schemes, flying to their one and only destination, Jeddah. Accommodation is provided for CAE in Harmony Apartments, the Eagle pilots are told about the Harris hotel, and then are expected to find their own feet from there. Being told about the hotel is your indoctrination and introduction to the company and possible the only thing you will hear that makes sense from Ms. Meylda, the secretary to the Head of Flight Operations, “Captain” Filemon- whatever that title means!
Let me, at this point, point out that it is not just the First Officers who are paying to fly, there are indeed Captains on these “courses”. I am still trying to figure out what kind of airline in the world has their Captains and First Officer paying to fly for them! Madness.
You would try to leave knowing this wouldn’t you, if you had been stupid enough to come in the first place! Ha. Lion Air’s MD Rushdi Kirani (excuse the incorrect spelling sir), originally invented the ticketing system and software in use through the whole of Indonesia. He then opened up his own airline, and surprisingly, all the flights at Lion are full…sheer coincidence. Anyway, back to my point about trying to leave. The immigration office has “ties”/ bribe money to stop you leaving at the airport. On entry into Indonesia, you are initially given a tourist visa, and then, on completion of your “ground school” which was sitting in a classroom while the examiner told us the answers, you are then issued with a KITAS and work visa. This is in your passport, along with a “single entry” visa. So, if you want to leave the country now, you can’t, unless you have written permission a month in advance. Now imagine the scenario that a loved one dies, and you need to leave the country. I would almost say imagine leaving the country for a holiday, however, in your contract, holidays are banned, much like freedom of speech is with the gag clause. You are only allowed to leave to renew your licence/ medical.
It is my understanding that Indonesian law forbids working for free and that there is, like in most countries a minimum wage that needs paid. Not so the case with the P2F’s. Rumours, this being PPRUNE, are that the Head of Training is pocketing this small amount of compulsory salary money from over 80 of us now, in collaboration with a certain secretary, to an offshore account in New Zealand…
Back to the flying. All the communication from ground personnel and the majority of the flight attendants is in Bahasa which keeps you in the “loop”- the few that do speak a little English, it is well below standard. The Line training Captains English is good, however when you are released after training, the majority of line captains speak very simple English, indeed, there are a few Captains that do not speak one word of English which makes for an interesting game of Charades while flying a 70 tonne jet at 41,000ft with no map.
NOTAMS and Weather. I am not going to even bother telling you about the token documents you receive, SOMETIMES. Crew briefings. Say what? Best, get yourself a smart phone and check out the weather and Notams on that if you still plan on coming. Many of the places we fly to don’t have internet access, fire cover at the airport, or civilisation. Indeed, flying into Papua I think it was, there was a scantily clad man with a bow and arrow firing it at another scantily clad man with a bow and arrow…on the taxi way.
Lion, trying to maximise profits, as if having the staff paying to work for them was not enough, now aim for a quick turnaround or “fast track”, however, this just results in sometimes violent arguments erupting either between the flight crew, flight attendants, baggage handlers or dispatchers. Someone is getting it and its not pretty. No training was received about this new policy, merely an email (in Bahasa) telling you to, in so many words, haul ass. Since this “new” policy, there have been many incidents; indeed, one of my colleagues had an emergency diversion due to a fire in the cargo hold, whilst another had an explosion on landing.
You would think that, the authorities in Indonesia would do something- but the corruption is so bad that a blind eye is turned to nearly everything that is not white washed or bribed away.
Indeed, I really could go on….for hours about many other aspects of this unsafe and dangerous operation. I just wished to share my experience and hope that others will take heed. I am certain this will not stop the P2F madness from continuing, or will it stop the well heeled ME CPL IR’s from gaining experience in this way. Who is to blame for this situation, I am not sure. This “course” does lead to a job, or advantage over the non jet experienced pilot whether you like it or not, however, next time Mr. Cathay 747 Captain, you say P2F’s have no experience…well…we have stories at least, and surely, as you know it all, you want to have us up front for a giggle or two…certainly, if we survive Lion Air and manage to leave Indonesia, we will be smiling.
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Lot of animosity
pklucky888 i guess you dont have very fond memories lion but i dont think that is justified in posting rather misleading posts and a complete disaster of facts. Im sure most of the expats in lion would not agree with your lunatic ( and if i may add a very hard effort ) attempt to brandish lion air. And with all the talk of " toilet rolls" and "find a loo vs. a fly infested hole in the ground, surrounded by an inch of water that has trickled down someone’s backside" ...Damn for a pilot you sound very very CHEAP and with a disturbed mindset.
Anyway for all the other guys who have probably read the earlier post ...dont buy into it.
Anyway for all the other guys who have probably read the earlier post ...dont buy into it.
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Dear PK LUCKY888,
I am a pilot from Lion Air, I dont know where you got this information from, but my gosh, YOU ARE SO RIGHT about everything you say.
LION AIR is a SHAME for aviation and especially for human relationships. They are absolutely giving everyone a pain in the ass.
They treat people - especially expat pilots - as a piece of ****...
Dont expect some kind of structure in the company like in your home country but expect a disaster in everything...
SECURITY level is as low as you can imagine. PK LUCKY 888 gave many true and good examples. You can write down what I say: there will be a major accident with LION AIR soon, only just a matter of time. They have all the ingredients for a big disaster, trust me...
The worst problem is the way they handle with people. They dont care about some of your personal relation anymore with your family, friends, or belovings. You will be STUCK in Jakarta for as long as your contract lasts... They dont care about if something serious happens. Captain Filemon (COO) or Captain Mufty (chief pilot) have to give their approval of leave. It takes weeks in this country to give you a valid visum so forget about a funeral, a serious accident, ... Trust me, these guys are no CAPTAINS, but guys with just 1 braincell. They are both in good shape, and dont have to loose weight, but for me, they are both the biggest LOOOOSERS I have ever seen in my life. But its okay for me if they put 2 MONKEYS in the management in a company which looks like a ZOO.
I can continue for hours talking about the only truth about this company.
PLEASE, EUROPE, keep this company on your blacklist as long as you can. They need to be on that list ...
They have to be on that list 4-ever
CORRUPTION rules in Jakarta and LION AIR. Guys, go to your embassy, talk about your visum problem. Sooner or later, European Union will know about this problem
AVOID THIS COMPANY, its not worthy to come here...
Please people, avoid Lion Air to FLY with - to WORK for - to LOOK at
I am a pilot from Lion Air, I dont know where you got this information from, but my gosh, YOU ARE SO RIGHT about everything you say.
LION AIR is a SHAME for aviation and especially for human relationships. They are absolutely giving everyone a pain in the ass.
They treat people - especially expat pilots - as a piece of ****...
Dont expect some kind of structure in the company like in your home country but expect a disaster in everything...
SECURITY level is as low as you can imagine. PK LUCKY 888 gave many true and good examples. You can write down what I say: there will be a major accident with LION AIR soon, only just a matter of time. They have all the ingredients for a big disaster, trust me...
The worst problem is the way they handle with people. They dont care about some of your personal relation anymore with your family, friends, or belovings. You will be STUCK in Jakarta for as long as your contract lasts... They dont care about if something serious happens. Captain Filemon (COO) or Captain Mufty (chief pilot) have to give their approval of leave. It takes weeks in this country to give you a valid visum so forget about a funeral, a serious accident, ... Trust me, these guys are no CAPTAINS, but guys with just 1 braincell. They are both in good shape, and dont have to loose weight, but for me, they are both the biggest LOOOOSERS I have ever seen in my life. But its okay for me if they put 2 MONKEYS in the management in a company which looks like a ZOO.
I can continue for hours talking about the only truth about this company.
PLEASE, EUROPE, keep this company on your blacklist as long as you can. They need to be on that list ...
They have to be on that list 4-ever
CORRUPTION rules in Jakarta and LION AIR. Guys, go to your embassy, talk about your visum problem. Sooner or later, European Union will know about this problem
AVOID THIS COMPANY, its not worthy to come here...
Please people, avoid Lion Air to FLY with - to WORK for - to LOOK at
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LISTEN, TO EVERYONE READING THIS POST.
I AM A PILOT OF LION AIR, STUCK IN THE COUNTRY AS A PRISONER.
PEOPLE CAN JUDGE, HAVE THEIR OPINIONS, ...
BUT UNLESS YOU NEVER WORKED HERE, YOU CAN NOT TELL ANYTHING REALISTIC.
I WORK FOR LION AIR, Mr. PK LUCKY 888 IS RIGHT ABOUT EVERYTHING HE SAYS,
TRUST ME, FROM THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART, ...
... IF YOU START YOUR CAREER AT LION AIR, YOU ENTER A DIFFERENT KIND OF FLYING...
IS YOUR 2Y EXPERIENCE AT LION AIR A SURPLUS ON YOUR RESUME, IT DEFENITELY IS ..., BUT YOU WILL OPEN YOUR EYES IF YOU FLY LATER ON FOR A DIFFERENT COMPANY...
I AM A PILOT OF LION AIR, STUCK IN THE COUNTRY AS A PRISONER.
PEOPLE CAN JUDGE, HAVE THEIR OPINIONS, ...
BUT UNLESS YOU NEVER WORKED HERE, YOU CAN NOT TELL ANYTHING REALISTIC.
I WORK FOR LION AIR, Mr. PK LUCKY 888 IS RIGHT ABOUT EVERYTHING HE SAYS,
TRUST ME, FROM THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART, ...
... IF YOU START YOUR CAREER AT LION AIR, YOU ENTER A DIFFERENT KIND OF FLYING...
IS YOUR 2Y EXPERIENCE AT LION AIR A SURPLUS ON YOUR RESUME, IT DEFENITELY IS ..., BUT YOU WILL OPEN YOUR EYES IF YOU FLY LATER ON FOR A DIFFERENT COMPANY...
This is what happens when people pay for a job. The company know you're desperate an will treat you accordingly, as desperadoes. All I can say is that you deserve what you get and you'll find little sympathy from the rest of the pilot community who deplore such 'pay to fly' schemes. 
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The wrong contract
Guys... i been following the misfortune of Lion Air pilots. whinning and the bitching about PAY and Annual leave etc... All I can say is that you have been duped. If you want more money and time off. You should have opted for the ATR package.
What I mean is the career package offered by RISHWORTH to fly ATR for Wings Air...(same company as Lion). the Package being offered is approx 7-8000usd for CAPT. 5/6000usd for FIRST OFFICER. A Premium MEDical from LIon. not a third party as being offered by Lion to its current pilots. The BEST is 2 mths ON 2wks OFF with a ticket back to country of origin... and accommodation, staying at slightly better apartment of RED TOP APARTMENT also near Lion Air.. which is newer than Harmoni.. Trust me the contract with ATR is much better than the B737ER..
Come guys.. 7/8000usd for Capt and 5/6000 for FO.. Lion Air can afford it.. with max pax load and 178 planes. All you need to do is to squeeze harder.. there is blood in that stone... Lion air pilots...dont talk.. DO something... dont let the plane fly you into the ground...
Gud luck
What I mean is the career package offered by RISHWORTH to fly ATR for Wings Air...(same company as Lion). the Package being offered is approx 7-8000usd for CAPT. 5/6000usd for FIRST OFFICER. A Premium MEDical from LIon. not a third party as being offered by Lion to its current pilots. The BEST is 2 mths ON 2wks OFF with a ticket back to country of origin... and accommodation, staying at slightly better apartment of RED TOP APARTMENT also near Lion Air.. which is newer than Harmoni.. Trust me the contract with ATR is much better than the B737ER..
Come guys.. 7/8000usd for Capt and 5/6000 for FO.. Lion Air can afford it.. with max pax load and 178 planes. All you need to do is to squeeze harder.. there is blood in that stone... Lion air pilots...dont talk.. DO something... dont let the plane fly you into the ground...
Gud luck
whinning and the bitching about PAY and Annual leave etc..
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dear WSSS,
I am very new to start adding posts here, but I did it - after being pilot for 10 y already - and I can assure you that a complaint have to be made.
The only thing you should understand is that many people - like yourself - seems not working for Lion Air yourself. Your sympathy is very clear for pilots working for Lion Air.
Look, since Lion Air is only working recently with expat pilots - like 1 year ago - its is very easy to start pointing your finger to us that its is stupid and we dont have the rights to complain, etc ... Many things were suprises for us, I can assure you.
About the salary, people knew off course what they will have on the account at the end of the month - which is ZERO.
But please understand that around 50% of the expat people are getting paid like myself. So I will never complain about something me and Lion Air arranged before. So also the eagle jet pilots will hopefully never do since they knew this salary issue from the beginning when signing the contract.
I can only tell you that when I read Mister PClucky 888 blog on the forum, he is talking about different things, which are the truth. Its about safety, respect and general aviation at Lion Air.
Please, read his blog again from A-Z and understand what he wants to say.
I trully hope that none of my friends and collegues will have an accident there. But when Europe, America and Australia refuses Lion Air to enter their airspaces, it must have a reason which goes far beyond my limits and certainly yours (since you have never been there I guess).
Its a democratic forum here. But I tell you I can only admit what Pc Lucky 888 is telling and I am sure you dont even know **** about this problem - maybe only by reading bits and pieces on this forum.
Good luck anyhow with your pilot - career (if you are one)
I am very new to start adding posts here, but I did it - after being pilot for 10 y already - and I can assure you that a complaint have to be made.
The only thing you should understand is that many people - like yourself - seems not working for Lion Air yourself. Your sympathy is very clear for pilots working for Lion Air.
Look, since Lion Air is only working recently with expat pilots - like 1 year ago - its is very easy to start pointing your finger to us that its is stupid and we dont have the rights to complain, etc ... Many things were suprises for us, I can assure you.
About the salary, people knew off course what they will have on the account at the end of the month - which is ZERO.
But please understand that around 50% of the expat people are getting paid like myself. So I will never complain about something me and Lion Air arranged before. So also the eagle jet pilots will hopefully never do since they knew this salary issue from the beginning when signing the contract.
I can only tell you that when I read Mister PClucky 888 blog on the forum, he is talking about different things, which are the truth. Its about safety, respect and general aviation at Lion Air.
Please, read his blog again from A-Z and understand what he wants to say.
I trully hope that none of my friends and collegues will have an accident there. But when Europe, America and Australia refuses Lion Air to enter their airspaces, it must have a reason which goes far beyond my limits and certainly yours (since you have never been there I guess).
Its a democratic forum here. But I tell you I can only admit what Pc Lucky 888 is telling and I am sure you dont even know **** about this problem - maybe only by reading bits and pieces on this forum.
Good luck anyhow with your pilot - career (if you are one)
Good luck anyhow with your pilot - career (if you are one)
As I have said before, I have little sympathy for anyone who pays to fly as it brings down pilots' terms and conditions exactly as pklucky has described above. I find it hard to believe that you and pklucky can't seem to understand this point.
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Guys... forget P2F with Eaglejet and CAE...save some money.. Get a B737 type rating and go across road to Batavia Air. They accept anyone with a typerating. My friend recently joined and accept with Batavia with a B737 classic type. No time on type. just propeller time.
Salary... 2000USD nett for 100hrs for FO. 4000USD nett for CApt.
well aleast you getting some pocket money for hooker's and burgers..
Salary... 2000USD nett for 100hrs for FO. 4000USD nett for CApt.
well aleast you getting some pocket money for hooker's and burgers..
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eagle jet turboprop programme
hey guys im new here frm bombay [india ] just wanderin if i could get any word on eagle jet "s first officer turboprop programme on beach 99 ...
i have a a canadian cpl with multi - ifr ...planin to convert to FAA
tt of 280 hrs
im trying to research but have got mixed reactions....
1]does any 1 know the companies they use for line training ......
2]how many hrs of flying do v actually do and not refering to what they say on their website
i have a a canadian cpl with multi - ifr ...planin to convert to FAA
tt of 280 hrs
im trying to research but have got mixed reactions....
1]does any 1 know the companies they use for line training ......
2]how many hrs of flying do v actually do and not refering to what they say on their website
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I heard from Batavia air... That they changing there annual leave from 12days to 30 days for expats.. as expats are complained that the 12 days a year is not enough for expats to go home... they even offered pilots NO paid leave after the 30 days are used up.
Now it time for LION air to change, do some good and listen...keeping pilots flying and giving them 12 days business days is just not good enough,
it not the way to keep the pilot loyal and forget about employees morale... Even Garuda has the sense to give more time off to there expats.. 3mth work, 2 wks off.
Come on Lion air BE the clever and the brave one... leader of change
Oops..lion air... pilots do come back from holidays... have faith..
Now it time for LION air to change, do some good and listen...keeping pilots flying and giving them 12 days business days is just not good enough,
it not the way to keep the pilot loyal and forget about employees morale... Even Garuda has the sense to give more time off to there expats.. 3mth work, 2 wks off. Come on Lion air BE the clever and the brave one... leader of change
Oops..lion air... pilots do come back from holidays... have faith..