VOR-Holdings (China)
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: In a f*6king tent
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Clonde9 guy gone
Looks like C9 got kicked off and his posts removed. Good job PPrune!!! We starving pilots dont need bs like that being spouted from a poser member. Its hard enough to sift through all the nonsense on here without someone purposefully misleading others. After my short experience with VOR I can say that I will be going elsewhere for my contracts. BTW, Parc (Ive never dealt with them before) has the same contract with ACC as VOR does but they arent so misleading about it. Honestly though, it seems that there are better paying positions for 737 or A320 available now with no wait time for "upgrade" back to Captain.
Anyone have any info on Xiamen or Shanghai Airlines?
Bolshevik
Anyone have any info on Xiamen or Shanghai Airlines?
Bolshevik
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Saigon
Age: 61
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I am with Parc now with Capitol. I was luckily steered towards them by a bunch of expat pilots. They are not as experienced in China as a couple of other agencies, but they are probably the best overall agency out there. Rishworth at the moment is behaving themselves in China. Their local rep is good and his english is excellent. Unfortunately it is still Rishworth. Eventually the scum down in Auckland won't be able to help themselves and will revert to their old ways, which eventually means your paycheck comes up short. 
Parc is not perfect, but some lifetime contract pilots told me that long term, they have always been the best. A couple have said they won't work a contract unless Parc is their rep.
My experience with them has been good so far.
Parc is not perfect, but some lifetime contract pilots told me that long term, they have always been the best. A couple have said they won't work a contract unless Parc is their rep.
My experience with them has been good so far.
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Saigon
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Just to elaborate a bit more on agencies and their policies, I will give you the few experiences that I have had.
1. VOR Holdings. I contacted them about 2 years and 5 months ago. After first contact, they send me a contract, obligating me to use them, for all airlines in China. I refused and told them I would sign for one. I got a real bad feeling about these guys, so I bailed soon after. Never could get an honest answer out of them. I have not seen one of their contracts, but what i have heard reminds me of the contract I will describe below.
2. Rishworth. Once again after first contact they send me a mini-contract obligating me to use them for the airline in quesiton. I get a screening date, and they make me sign another mini-contract, obligating me to accept the job after screening, or pay thousands of dollars. I ask to see the contract with the airline beforehand, but they said that is not their policy. At this point I am bound to them for this airline, so I continue the process. I pass the screening, and they send me the working contract. Holy @#$$%% batman, you wouldn't believe the contract, and if I refuse, I owe them thousands of USD. The contract is the worst rubbish I have ever seen. Obligates me to everything, and Rishworth to nothing. It even states that in the event that we have a disagreement or they violate any part of the contract, I cannot hold them legally liable!!!! If they break one clause of the contract, the rest of the contract remains in effect!!!! And get this, I can't allow ANYONE to see the contract, which I assume means a lawyer!!!!
Worst rubbish I have ever seen, and I was stupid enough to sign it.
I have heard VOR Holdings contracts are quite similar.
My Parc contract, in contrast, is a basic contract between two business entities. Each has obligations, and each has an "out". Very well done, I wanted a to have a couple things clarified in the contract, so they changed the wording to what I requested. No problem.
That has been my experience in dealing with 3 different agencies.
1. VOR Holdings. I contacted them about 2 years and 5 months ago. After first contact, they send me a contract, obligating me to use them, for all airlines in China. I refused and told them I would sign for one. I got a real bad feeling about these guys, so I bailed soon after. Never could get an honest answer out of them. I have not seen one of their contracts, but what i have heard reminds me of the contract I will describe below.
2. Rishworth. Once again after first contact they send me a mini-contract obligating me to use them for the airline in quesiton. I get a screening date, and they make me sign another mini-contract, obligating me to accept the job after screening, or pay thousands of dollars. I ask to see the contract with the airline beforehand, but they said that is not their policy. At this point I am bound to them for this airline, so I continue the process. I pass the screening, and they send me the working contract. Holy @#$$%% batman, you wouldn't believe the contract, and if I refuse, I owe them thousands of USD. The contract is the worst rubbish I have ever seen. Obligates me to everything, and Rishworth to nothing. It even states that in the event that we have a disagreement or they violate any part of the contract, I cannot hold them legally liable!!!! If they break one clause of the contract, the rest of the contract remains in effect!!!! And get this, I can't allow ANYONE to see the contract, which I assume means a lawyer!!!!
Worst rubbish I have ever seen, and I was stupid enough to sign it.
I have heard VOR Holdings contracts are quite similar.
My Parc contract, in contrast, is a basic contract between two business entities. Each has obligations, and each has an "out". Very well done, I wanted a to have a couple things clarified in the contract, so they changed the wording to what I requested. No problem.
That has been my experience in dealing with 3 different agencies.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Sector 6
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Do yourself a favor by staying away from the Chinese head hunters, who will promise you an arm and a leg just to get you over there.
Do not go there unless you are being represented by a western agency.
Do not go there unless you are being represented by a western agency.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Anywere
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KIDS!
Kids, kids, kids!
Just because it says CONTRACT it does not mean it is legally bonding! many contracts are illegal (most banks, Networks, work, etc) the problems start when one party wants to enforce it! either you come to an agreement or you end up in court.
What if you tell Risworth " I ain't paying ****! " What are they going to do? take you to court and tell the judge that they told you to sign a contract that it says that you blindly will sign another contract after some other fact? In most places of the world specially in Labor Law the law sides with the weaker.
The contract companies KNOW, they have lawyers, you don't (normally, some do) If they tell you do not show it to anyone THAT is enough reason to show it to a lawyer!
It is like the no competition clauses, another bunch of BS! very rare that applies
Just because it says CONTRACT it does not mean it is legally bonding! many contracts are illegal (most banks, Networks, work, etc) the problems start when one party wants to enforce it! either you come to an agreement or you end up in court.
What if you tell Risworth " I ain't paying ****! " What are they going to do? take you to court and tell the judge that they told you to sign a contract that it says that you blindly will sign another contract after some other fact? In most places of the world specially in Labor Law the law sides with the weaker.
The contract companies KNOW, they have lawyers, you don't (normally, some do) If they tell you do not show it to anyone THAT is enough reason to show it to a lawyer!
It is like the no competition clauses, another bunch of BS! very rare that applies
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: cloud9
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So is there anybody started this contract on the 744 with ACC that can give some information as to what is exactly going on?
I have been told when the line check is completed that you will indeed be left seat PIC.
Keen to hear from you guys there now.
Evy
I have been told when the line check is completed that you will indeed be left seat PIC.
Keen to hear from you guys there now.
Evy
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: belgium
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Hello
I read a lot as usual about VOR
What is a the difference between junior captain and PIC ?
( there is no much difference in sallary)
How fast can you be PIC ? ( if i assumed that Junior captain is a cruise relief pilot or F/O or a captain in training) 1Y , 18 months ?
How is the roster ?
What is the price of an appart with 4 bedrooms ?
What is the cost of the school for 2 childrens?
How many stby tickets can i use for my familly ( we are 4 )
i'm cpt (current)on B738 with 2000 hrs and a total of 10000 hrs
I do not want to brake any fences .
I would love to fly a 747 , i'm willing to learn at first
But i need valid and concrete informations about the cost live and the opportun to be.... one day a real cpt PIC on this lovely machine
Anybody who is working for AIR china cargo or VOR
I will appreciate your help
My best regards
I read a lot as usual about VOR
What is a the difference between junior captain and PIC ?
( there is no much difference in sallary)
How fast can you be PIC ? ( if i assumed that Junior captain is a cruise relief pilot or F/O or a captain in training) 1Y , 18 months ?
How is the roster ?
What is the price of an appart with 4 bedrooms ?
What is the cost of the school for 2 childrens?
How many stby tickets can i use for my familly ( we are 4 )
i'm cpt (current)on B738 with 2000 hrs and a total of 10000 hrs
I do not want to brake any fences .
I would love to fly a 747 , i'm willing to learn at first
But i need valid and concrete informations about the cost live and the opportun to be.... one day a real cpt PIC on this lovely machine
Anybody who is working for AIR china cargo or VOR
I will appreciate your help
My best regards
Join Date: Jan 2007
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beware of VOR
Hello, Just remember if you sign on with VOR you are locked in for life. You will never work in China without them. They will make you there special project to make sure of that. Good Luck, On Final
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Around the corner
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Hi guys,
I am on a contract with Wasinc. So far I have not had any problems whatsoever. They seem to be working very fast as well. I started to work faster than other guys with different contractors. The chinese contracts are weird though. I had a lawyer looking it over and he said, it is quite unprofessional. But aparently the contractors are forced to put some wordings there by the chinese. Parc was initially very unorganized, but they have improved as well from what I have heard. They are a good company, but are lacking little bit on chinese experience.
But the chinese law works on the basis of "harmony". It is not about what is right or what is wrong. It is about how to make a compromise. Somebody who understand the culture, which is to a western mind quite illogical, can get by with much less problems. But having said that, the contracts sound stupid. But that is the way of life in china. You are not legally protected whatsoever. It is just an illusion of a legal system.
I am on a contract with Wasinc. So far I have not had any problems whatsoever. They seem to be working very fast as well. I started to work faster than other guys with different contractors. The chinese contracts are weird though. I had a lawyer looking it over and he said, it is quite unprofessional. But aparently the contractors are forced to put some wordings there by the chinese. Parc was initially very unorganized, but they have improved as well from what I have heard. They are a good company, but are lacking little bit on chinese experience.
But the chinese law works on the basis of "harmony". It is not about what is right or what is wrong. It is about how to make a compromise. Somebody who understand the culture, which is to a western mind quite illogical, can get by with much less problems. But having said that, the contracts sound stupid. But that is the way of life in china. You are not legally protected whatsoever. It is just an illusion of a legal system.
Join Date: Jan 2012
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Beware
I have a colleague in China flying for Spring airlines. I have also heard similar disturbing stories. He arrived there and after being in calss for 16 days, he sat down with H.R. to sign the three year contract they originally offered and the HR guy shoved a one year contract in his face!. Of course it was too late to go to another airline at that point so he signed it hoping for the best. They told him they would renew year by year. Sure they did but only offered a different contract the next year with much more restrictive clauses… Recently, he was involved in an altitude bust which was due primarily to ATC’s poor English and an F.O who did not speak clearly and then I guess there was a radio failure when they were transferred to the next sector. They are going to ding him 12K!!, which is a bonus pilots would receive at the end of the year. He won’t post here because he’s afraid of negative reprisals. Hope this helps a bit. I know it scares me. Seems that you really have to conver your back side and read the contract terms carefully.....
Join Date: Jan 2012
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Typical evasion tactics
Be carefull. Some of the larger carriers there are just crap. Advice from my colleague; Avoid the state carriers. Even the contracts in the private carriers like Juneyao, Hainan, and Spring have dodgy language in the contracts. Nail them down before you do anytihng seems to be the consensus...
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
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Hello all. Thanks for all the posts regarding this agency. Is there a way to go along with them. For example, when the contract has to be signed, can I ask for it to be re-written ? Any way to get protected from them ?
Join Date: Jan 2006
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[quote]Hello all. Thanks for all the posts regarding this agency. Is there a way to go along with them. For example, when the contract has to be signed, can I ask for it to be re-written?]/quote]
Not impossible. However probably improbable. No incentive, unless there will be a benefit for the airline you have entered into a contractual agreement.
As there are more pilots, considering expat programs, looking beyond their borders for jobs, your current agency or airline would probably allow you to cut ties rather than amend the terms and conditions of your contract. They do not wish to set a precedent and open a can of worms.
What type of protection are you looking for? Other than not being paid, no benefits as promised, QOL, accommodations, work permits, insurance, List other concerns you feel you need protection from.
If you wrongfully terminated, or have not been paid for a period of time, are you willing to spend the money to engage the services of an attorney from the country where you were working?
Not impossible. However probably improbable. No incentive, unless there will be a benefit for the airline you have entered into a contractual agreement.
As there are more pilots, considering expat programs, looking beyond their borders for jobs, your current agency or airline would probably allow you to cut ties rather than amend the terms and conditions of your contract. They do not wish to set a precedent and open a can of worms.
Any way to get protected from them?
If you wrongfully terminated, or have not been paid for a period of time, are you willing to spend the money to engage the services of an attorney from the country where you were working?
Join Date: Apr 2012
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Yes, that is what I meant. Get protected that things written are done, or, worst case scenario, that I can tell everyone to stuff it up and go away, without being chased with a fine.
Join Date: Nov 2010
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VOR Holdings
You will find comprehensive details of the smoke and mirrors Air China Cargo package, including the Junior Captain sham, by reading the thread at the link below:
http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearme...ml#post6006051
http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearme...ml#post6006051
Join Date: May 2013
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WARNING DO NOT USE VOR HOLDINGS!
You may use them and never have a problem, or they may sue you, and lie to you airline. They will prevent you from ever changing agents if you are not satisfied by very dishonest methods.
Again you may never have a problem but why chance it? There are plenty other honest agents to choose from.
Again you may never have a problem but why chance it? There are plenty other honest agents to choose from.
Join Date: Nov 2010
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The worst Agent
I will recommend anybody who is trying to find a contract that PLEASE DONT USE VOR AS AGENT!!! If you sign a contract with VOR you all will be I jail for the rest of your career. They will never let you leave the company and they don't provide any services only pay roll services. But any other assistance forget about it!!! At the beginning when they want you to sign a contract with them they will promise earth and heaven. BUT AFTER YOU BITE THE HOOK FORGET ABOUT EVERY THING!!! 
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Stay away from VOR Holdings
The only reason VOR Holding might have some 3000 applicants is because 3000 desperate pilots believed in the Ad. In China the majority of airlines requires a minimum of 500 hours PIC in type; So, all FO's out there: You will NOT be hired as CAPT nor you will upgrade in China under a contract. I know because I worked in China for 4 years.