Air Mekong in Vietnam

[eastboundndown]

I'm completely new to pprune here, but heard this was the place to get the good international info.

My company in the states (ASA) is currently offering 20 FO's and 20 CA's positions to fly for Air Mekong, a start up airline in Vietnam. Currently they aren't sure about bases, but have said Hanoi and Ho Chi Min will be the focus cities for possible basing. They will be starting the operation with 4 CRJ 900's with the intent to expand the operation in the future. All operations will begin domesticly within Vietnam and then eventually expand throughout SE Asia.

Here's their offer:

CRJ900 Captain

Monthly Pay:

$6250.00 net (Vietnam income tax paid by Air Mekong)

Contract Term:

at least 13 months, renewable with approval

Allowances:

up to $900.00 per month housing allowance
$6000.00 annual travel allowance paid out in quarterly installments of $1500.00

Days off:

10 days off per month, guarantee

Leave:

21 days of individual leave per year, can be used as sick days

Insurance:

Private Health/Medical Insurance coverage, comparable to UHC PPO coverage
Life Insurance
Emergency Evacuation Insurance



CRJ900 First Officer

Monthly Pay:

$4250.00 net (Vietnam income tax paid by Air Mekong)

Contract Term:

at least 13 months, renewable with approval

Allowances:

up to $800.00 per month housing allowance
$4000.00 annual travel allowance paid out in quarterly installments of $1000.00

Days off:

10 days off per month, guarantee

Leave

21 days of individual leave per year, can be used as sick days

Insurance

Private Health/Medical Insurance coverage, comparable to UHC PPO coverage
Life Insurance
Emergency Evacuation Insurance

I have an interview this week, and was wondering what your thoughts are on the QOL, cost of living, and overall experiences in Vietnam. Thanks for your advice.

[crj705]

Compared to other contracts, the package is very low. Make no mistake about it, they could have offered this to a contract agency but they know there would have been no takers.

Other CRJ contracts pay about $9000 base (for a CRJ 200), more vacation days, more housing, a relocation allowance, and most of your international school tuition for your children. International school alone will run you around $20,000 per child per year.

Contract flying is the last hope in the airline world of making a decent salary. And the ASA terms and the pilots coming are helping to destroy it.

And don't forget, you are going to work in a communist country and won't enjoy the protections that you are use to. Unions? Forget about it. Min rest? You bet. Is management, operations and scheduling run by locals or ASA? That is going to make a big difference. What about if you have an incident or accident? Even in Japan, there have been pilots put in jail because of an accident. I don't work in Vietnam so I don't know what their legal system is like, but it is something to consider.

I'm not saying that you should be scared off from it. Since leaving the US 3 years ago to join the contract world, this has been the best move I have ever made, both personally and professionally. And I have NO plans of returning to the US. But your salary should reflect the risks that you are taking, and in its current form it does not.

Your contract for a 900 should be close to 737 or A320 contracts, not US regional pay.

[Dream Land]

Eastbound, I'm no expert on contracts, but just be advised that you are in the drivers seat before you begin the contract, not after you sign on the dotted line.

Just a couple of questions, who will you actually be getting paid by? Will the local taxes be paid?

International school tuition is approximately $1000 per month, per child. A decent two bedroom apartment runs about $1000 minimum in Saigon, probably higher in Hanoi. Traffic is tough in both cities, the airport is a 45 minute drive from Hanoi proper.

A320 salary here is approximately $117,000 USD (includes housing) the first year without the travel allowance. About 12K higher on the second year.

Will the aircraft be "VN" registration, just curious.

Good luck, D.L.

[zawillif]

Here are a couple answers to the above questions as I am an ASA pilot also contemplating the move.

As far as I know, the upper management is all Vietnam locals except for the VP(?) of Flight Operations--who is the former Director of Safety at ASA--and the VP(?) of Maintenance (also an ASA MX manager); have taken this as a promotion and are already over there.

The ASA mechanics are being offered a similar package and there will probably be a few that go. Flight attendants will be locals, pilots will all be ASA pilots--at least initially.

Personally I am lukewarm about this proposition. As a current FO I would love to go in the left seat, but they aren't even offering that. Only current captains can go as captains and current FOs can go as FOs. This is to reduce training cost. I have read about the long drive to Hanoi airport and worry about that as well. I think a lot of people have dreams of living in the middle of the city...if the trips are mostly day lines as is rumored this will be hard.

Anyone else with insight into Vietnam living would be appreciated. Myself and my buddies considering the move are all late 20s and single, a couple with girlfriends that would come. Thanks again.

[eastboundndown]

I'm not really sure who will be paying us. I'm sure it will be by Air Mekong. all taxes are paid, so the number posted above is your take home. the aircraft will likely be VN registered, since ASA is only a percentage owner in Air Mekong.

I think the the operations side will be run by ASA, just with a Air Mekong coat of paint on it. I'm sure the transition operationally will be seamless. This includes dispatch and scheduling.

Like Zawillif said above, many of us wanting to go are single with little to no obligation here in the states. From the people I know that are interested, it would be a great bunch over there.

[crj705]

many of us wanting to go are single with little to no obligation here in the states.

This is not a valid reason to accept sub-par terms. The terms would be bad enough if it were flying a 200, but it's even worse that it will be a 900. Take a look at the ATR contracts that are at VN.

I'm sure the transition operationally will be seamless. This includes dispatch and scheduling.

Given that the company is basically run by locals, I can pretty much guarantee that it will not be just like ASA. Their concept of what workers rights are will be very different from what you are use to.

I think this is a great opportunity for you ASA guys, I just wish you would be paid a respectable contractor's wage. Not bring the US regional pay into the contract world. Don't forget, the reason they are offering this job to US pilots is because we are the cheapest labor available.

[Dream Land]

Don't forget, the reason they are offering this job to US pilots is because we are the cheapest labor available

That and the fact that there are no RJ pilots here to hire, virtually all local pilots here are working for Vietnam Airlines, there is no surplus of GA pilots sitting on the sidelines here.

You will be the initial cadre to get this off the ground here, the CAAV will put together a Air Law Exam appropriate for the RJ and all pilots will have to have a Vietnamese ATPL.

Hopefully your contract will stipulate that the local taxes are taken care of, or it could be a problem for US income taxes, there are a few exclusions for paying taxes, one is being a local resident which will NOT happen, another would be being out of the USA for 330 days per year.

For newcomers, dealing with traffic can be quite dangerous, I would recommend that you have transportation addressed in your contract.

Myself and my buddies considering the move are all late 20s and single, a couple with girlfriends that would come.

Well my only question would be, why bring a girlfriend to Vietnam?

[crj705]

That and the fact that there are no RJ pilots here to hire, virtually all local pilots here are working for Vietnam Airlines, there is no surplus of GA pilots sitting on the sidelines here.

Which is typically why airlines turn to contract agencies to fill those positions with experienced crews. Problem here being that no contractor in their right mind would accept the terms as they are now.

Well my only question would be, why bring a girlfriend to Vietnam?

Agreed.

[zawillif]

Thanks for all the info guys, it is appreciated. I was just stating our ages etc to illustrate that we don't really care about school systems or anything of that nature. We are curious about the day to day living (Saigon vs. Hanoi, number of westerners vs. easterners, nightlife) and the like.

I always assumed they would offer us the lowest possible wage to get just the right amount of people to go. While these wages are better than what we make at ASA, it sounds as if they are far below industry standards. Since they have told us basically nothing about this, I think the majority of people interviewing are trying to get more information. Hopefully more will become available in the next few days.

[crj705]

I was just stating our ages etc to illustrate that we don't really care about school systems or anything of that nature.

While that might be true, the vast majority of contract pilots do care about these things. And, the terms you accept, affect us all.

As I live in Thailand, I can't comment on the specifics of living in Vietnam. However, while you can live cheap in Asia, it can be expensive too. Reliable, safe transportation cost money. Good housing is expensive. Western food will cost money. I just paid 8 USD for a box of cheerios. However, you can get all the bugs and grubs you can eat for about 10 cents.

One of the biggest adjustments I had to living in Asia is coming to realize that the cost of life here is very cheap. Safety is not a concept here in everyday life. No car seats, infants on motorcycles, pedestrians have no right of way, and driving on the roads is like modern urban combat. Also, be prepared to pay a "white man's tax" on everything.(white in this case includes any non SE Asian)

I think its a great deal that you guys have this offer and I bet everyone who goes will really enjoy it. I just hope you guys will hold out for better terms.

I also will make a bet that at least 10% of the single guys who go there will come back married or engaged. Don't say you were not warned.

[metro301]

"Far below industry standards" is an understatement.

[LindbergB767]

Those conditions are VERY low
ATR 72 Captain make 8250 a month at Vietnam Airlines
By the way they d ont have a permit from VAAC yet
The only one now who have a permit is Vietjet and they been trying to start since 3 years
Two years ago Indochina start with 2 737 NG and they are out of Biz since 8 months
Nothing sure in Vietnam
Be careful Dont resigne from your job now........
English private School $12000 US a year, French private a little bit lower
Apart in Hochiminh as well as Hanoi is about $1000 a month

[RoosterChange]

I fully understand that these cheap US laborer want to come over here.
Big party for one year and the job back at ASA is guarnteed, so nothing to loose.

As stated somewhere else in this Forum i am just deeply concerned that the market will be destroyed by this US Invasion.


P.S. Don`t forget to apply for a passport!

[PROBEUSMC]

Cheap US labor? European and Asian aviation markets are filled with FO's that paid for their type ratings (2-4 times the going open market rate) and then work for 1000-1500 E per month. Some in Europe PAY to fly 320's or 737's till they can get a real job.

A lot of Asian carriers (Indian, Thai, Air Asia, Indonesian carriers et al) do similar pay for FO's, even running cadet programs thru type ratings. The bonds their pilots are on are running out now and those pilots are hitting the contract world en-mass now as well.

US regional pay sucks, but it is 2-5 times higher than a lot of 320 FO jobs in Europe or Asia. A 50 seat Captain in the US makes a similar amount (+-1000 E) to a lot of 737 captain jobs in Europe. Very few US pilots EVER paid for a type rating, and most of the ones that did (Southwest) paid about 5000 USD for a 737 rating, not the 35,000 E Type rating, plus 9000 E base training that a couple of Europeans quoted me for their Scarebus rating.

As far as "cheap labor" invading the contract world, the Asian and Euro imports scare me far more than US regional pilots.

[crj705]

European and Asian aviation markets are filled with FO's that paid for their type ratings (2-4 times the going open market rate) and then work for 1000-1500 E per month. Some in Europe PAY to fly 320's or 737's till they can get a real job.

Which has absoutley no relevance to these guys coming in and undercutting the current rates for EXPATS in Asia. We are not talking about local terms here.

A lot of Asian carriers (Indian, Thai, Air Asia, Indonesian carriers et al) do similar pay for FO's, even running cadet programs thru type ratings. The bonds their pilots are on are running out now and those pilots are hitting the contract world en-mass now as well.

Again we are not talking about local terms or cadet programs. These guys are supposed to be bringing experience with them, not new hire cadets. Wether they are ASA pilots or people from Asia that have paid off bonds, they are bringing experience and should be compensated correctly.

US regional pay sucks, but it is 2-5 times higher than a lot of 320 FO jobs in Europe or Asia.

Not when I worked for a regional in the US and especially not contract jobs. I made about $17,000 my first year at a regional. I dont know anywhere that pays their pilots $8,500 - $3,400 per year, even on local terms. If you can show me one I will gladly eat my words. Even as captain I was making about $75,000 per year. Show me a Captain in Asia, even on local terms, that makes $35,000 - $15,000 per year. Your facts are just wrong.

A 50 seat Captain in the US makes a similar amount (+-1000 E) to a lot of 737 captain jobs in Europe.

Again you are not talking about expat contracts.

As far as "cheap labor" invading the contract world, the Asian and Euro imports scare me far more than US regional pilots.

Well, there is a US regional carrier offering temporary expat contracts in Asia for substantially less than the going rate. That scares me and should scare you too if you are on a contract.

Do you think the package they are being offered is right for the contract world???

[eastboundndown]

Thanks for the replies guys.

I can guarantee you that noone here wants to willingly undercut and undermine other expat contracts. I think this is a wholly different situation however. We are not going to a contracting company as individuals and seeking employment. Our company has come to us with a deal to take a year off from the states to be a part of their new investment.

Skywest Inc/ASA are actually partial owners in Air Mekong. I believe it's 30% (don't quote me on that). This is a way to provide a little much needed movement among our pilot rank and file here in the states.

I believe a lot of the people interested in this position, look at it as a way to step into the international realm of flying with little or no risk to our current positions. I also know expat flying isn't a bed a roses and the glamorous adventure many think it will be. I understand the work rules and union protections we take for granted in the states will not be there for us. These are all associated risks, along with other contractual issues that will be thoroughly examined before my name goes on any piece of paper.

Keep your thoughts coming, they are a huge help

[crj705]

I can guarantee you that noone here wants to willingly undercut and undermine other expat contracts.

I won't sugarcoat it. If you accept this at the current terms that is exactly what you are doing

I think this is a wholly different situation however. We are not going to a contracting company as individuals and seeking employment.

I respectfully disagree. You are a foreign national assigned to a foreign airline for a temporary length of time. They are asking for you to come there because they need pilots with experience. The problem is, they don't want to compensate you for that. When you get to Vietnam, look around at the other expats that are making significantly more than you flying smaller equipment and ask yourself what the difference is between you and him.

Most airlines, if they need pilots, go through a contract agency to find them. But, as I have said before, if Air Mekong did this they know they would not find one contractor that would have accepted the terms. You are being brought in at cheaper terms and undercutting the expats already there. Plain and simple. The only thing different with your situation is your pay. It has nothing to do with being an individual.

Skywest Inc/ASA are actually partial owners in Air Mekong. I believe it's 30% (don't quote me on that). This is a way to provide a little much needed movement among our pilot rank and file here in the states.

I can understand your point on this. But realize in giving yourself that really small amount of movement, you are setting a very dangerous precedent for us expats.

I believe a lot of the people interested in this position, look at it as a way to step into the international realm of flying with little or no risk to our current positions.

I agree with you. This is a great opportunity for you guys.

I

also know expat flying isn't a bed a roses and the glamorous adventure many think it will be. I understand the work rules and union protections we take for granted in the states will not be there for us. These are all associated risks, along with other contractual issues that will be thoroughly examined before my name goes on any piece of paper.

Here in lies the problem. Earlier you stated that your situation isn't really the same because you are not going through a contract agency. But you just described what every expat does at work every day. Whether or not you are with a contract agency is irrelevant. You are going to work as an expat. Demand to be paid like one.

You guys are all coming from the same pilot group. Why can't your MEC leadership show some organizing skills (don't laugh) and get the terms for this raised? If you all said that you are interested but the pay is too low, their only choice is to close the airline, pay you more, or go to an agency (which will cost them more).

Please don't bring regional pay to the contract world.....PLEASE

[RoosterChange]

I think there is still a lot of water down the Mekong until the start flying!

ASA still furloughs Crews? So better come here and have some fun for some time, who knows when you guys will have a chance to go abroad again, right?

....from the forum Jetcareers:

That's the Disney College Program model. They do the same thing to the college students. Take the pay out of their check, and then stick them in a four bedroom apartment with 7 other people

Is happening here at Vietnam Airlines too, and if you take the leftovers from Catering home Yanks can really live cheap down here.....

[The Dominican]

ASA was counting with the fact that you guys have very little knowledge about the salary levels and the business models of these international contracts. These are high yield markets because there is little competition and these companies are profitable as stand alone companies, they are not part of a network where the regional carriers don't make money really for the mainline carrier but rather the money is made by feeding the hub. The countries that form the Asian block are experiencing the largest increase of middle class (Families earning the equivalent of 5,000 USD/Month or more) in the history of humanity largely surpassing the middle class development in the U.S. of the 50's and 60's. The economical development of this region is the reason why ASA is investing in this venture and the fact that they won't be restricted by scope since they will be a stand alone, the yield and profit levels currently are supporting salary levels of 10 to 12k USD for CRJ captains with contract completion bonuses that varies from 20 to 30K USD at the end of the contract and these companies paying these salaries are profitable. ASA was counting on the fact that you would equate your current situation and the pathetic state of the job market in the US and apply that as the basis of your decision making process for considering this very substandard offer. But undercutting the S.E. Asia market by an outstanding 40% at the regional level brings an interesting point, What about the wide body market? ASA could very well find itself in a position of leasing A-330's 767's since there is no scope restriction and if you are willing to accept $80,000 when they are paying $120,000 to fly a CRJ, you see where I'm getting at? You are judging the conditions of the market in the US and applying that condition to a market that is profitable and supports a LOT higher salaries than it's being offered. I just hope that you understand that ASA needs you for this venture and they are willing to pay international market wages because they have no other options if you guys don't accept the pathetic terms they are offering because in the international market there are no pilots that would accept these terms when they can go to the next job in the same country, flying the same airplane and make 40% more.

[4runner]

6250 a month for captains??? Are you guys kidding me? What loser would take these terms? Dear ASA pilots that have signed up, thank you for taking the reigns as the new Mesa. We all needed a scapegoat. BTW, the lowest current contract for an RJ captain that I have seen is 8000 a month and that's crap. If you don't take it, they'll raise it to what it should be. If you do take it, it'll lower the bar for EVERYONE else and make you the laughing stock of the contract pilot world and guarantee that you won't get a future contract with real contract (mercenary) pilots and a real contract. Have fun bottom feeders...