SIA Speed on Final
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Join Date: Dec 1999
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SIA Speed on Final
Just wondering if SIA have a delayed flap policy on final or if they always drag it in at minimum speed on a 10 mile final. Often I have been forced to slow up because a 744 or 777 is at 155 knots at 4000ft while I'm planning a 230 knot at 1500ft approach in my 73. Is it just me that SIA clogs up arrivals?
I don't fly for SIA but I am sure like my company they have a stabilised approach policy with a maximum speed at 10 miles of 180 kts. And that will normally mean fully configured at 1500 feet to be fully stabilised at 1000 feet with Vref+5. (Around 150kts +-5)
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No one clogs up anything.
Most companies around the world have the policy of being stable by 1000ft IMC (500ft VMC) and probably your as well (should be in your AOM).
One has to remember that a 747 has a bit more inertia than a 737, and that combined with an average human brain time reaction to the unexpected may lead a few to show some respect to the third (vertical), and fourth (speed) dimensions for which we (pilots) have not being created to evolve in.
I find myself regularly behind 747’s on approach (including SIA) and never experienced any problem, but having some wide body experience (and over 30 years on the job) helps me anticipate accordingly (as I know what they will do within the next few minutes).
And yes, 230 IAS at 1500ft is definitely excessive even in a 737 (that I currently fly)
This is a culture issue; the only one you impress is yourself.
Most companies around the world have the policy of being stable by 1000ft IMC (500ft VMC) and probably your as well (should be in your AOM).
One has to remember that a 747 has a bit more inertia than a 737, and that combined with an average human brain time reaction to the unexpected may lead a few to show some respect to the third (vertical), and fourth (speed) dimensions for which we (pilots) have not being created to evolve in.
I find myself regularly behind 747’s on approach (including SIA) and never experienced any problem, but having some wide body experience (and over 30 years on the job) helps me anticipate accordingly (as I know what they will do within the next few minutes).
And yes, 230 IAS at 1500ft is definitely excessive even in a 737 (that I currently fly)
This is a culture issue; the only one you impress is yourself.
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During busy periods at large airports, approach speeds are regulated for sequencing; typically 180kts to 10miles final, and thereafter 160kts to 4 miles final. 230kts at 1500' would be excessive for any airplane at any airport, unless you're making a high speed pass.
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Current SIA policy (for 777, not sure about the 744) calls for gear down, flap 20 at 2500', and flap 30 at 2000' to be stabilised by 1000'. It used to be 500' lower, but the FDAP was showing too many unstabilised approaches. Bear in mind that if it's in the morning, the guys have been flying for 7 1/2-8 hours through the night before making the approach, and often will be making their first approach at that airport. The route network on the 777 is huge - I have averaged about one trip per year to each of the Australian destinations, so most of the guys will not be as comfortable as the average domestic Aussie pilot at your airport, and will probably prefer to err on the conservative side.
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Statisical analysis of industry wide incidents and accidents after landing show overruns primarily associated with an unstabilised approach.
Consequently, SIA and its subsidiaries have established a SOP for all approaches.
Our stabilised approach criteria requires the airplane to be in the landing configuration on speed, on profile and in the slot at 1000' AGL (VMC or IMC).
The only exception is when conducting a visual approach or sidestep approach from a change of runway (for eg., in LAX, DFW, ORD etc) in which case the airplane must be in the landing configuration on speed, on profile and in the slot by 500' AGL and 300' AGL respectively.
Additionally, when below 5000' AGL on approach, airspeed must not be greater than 250 kts unless ATC require a greater speed, and must be not greater than 210kts below 3000' AGL.
Simple stuff. Fit that into your SIA approach profile and there won't be any FDAP triggers to explain. It's all about minimising the statistical probability of an overrun.
AoA has raised an interesting profile for New Year's reading.
It reminds me of an A320 accident in Bahrain...
Consequently, SIA and its subsidiaries have established a SOP for all approaches.
Our stabilised approach criteria requires the airplane to be in the landing configuration on speed, on profile and in the slot at 1000' AGL (VMC or IMC).
The only exception is when conducting a visual approach or sidestep approach from a change of runway (for eg., in LAX, DFW, ORD etc) in which case the airplane must be in the landing configuration on speed, on profile and in the slot by 500' AGL and 300' AGL respectively.
Additionally, when below 5000' AGL on approach, airspeed must not be greater than 250 kts unless ATC require a greater speed, and must be not greater than 210kts below 3000' AGL.
Simple stuff. Fit that into your SIA approach profile and there won't be any FDAP triggers to explain. It's all about minimising the statistical probability of an overrun.
AoA has raised an interesting profile for New Year's reading.
It reminds me of an A320 accident in Bahrain...
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When I fly behind an SIA aircraft I feel their approach speed is too slow. Being stable at 1000 feet doesn't mean that you should be at minimum clean at 20 miles and start using flaps at 18. 230 knots at 1500 feet is not that fast, all depends how far you are at 1500 feet . . . Strong headwinds should also be taken into consideration . . .
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Every company has their SOP and policies. If your company allows you to be at 230kts at 1500 ft, then you are entitled to do so. But pilots in SIA and other established airlines are duty bound to comply with SOPs. Otherwise disciplinary action could be taken against them.
Again, ATC will determine the speeds to be flown if traffic is heavy. In many airports speed limits are imposed to manage traffic flow unless ATC determines otherwise for separation purposes. Yeah, I have done 250 kts on downwind in Chicago O'Hare on a B744, but that is becoz' ATC requires me to do so due to traffic separation.
Airmanship plays an important part as well. In airports where speed control is not mandatory, if one sights traffic ahead on their TCAS system or visually, one should adjust his speed accordingly to allow proper separation. If you are number one for approach, then by all means, keep up your speed (within SOPs and ATC's approval of course) to minimise delays.
Again, ATC will determine the speeds to be flown if traffic is heavy. In many airports speed limits are imposed to manage traffic flow unless ATC determines otherwise for separation purposes. Yeah, I have done 250 kts on downwind in Chicago O'Hare on a B744, but that is becoz' ATC requires me to do so due to traffic separation.
Airmanship plays an important part as well. In airports where speed control is not mandatory, if one sights traffic ahead on their TCAS system or visually, one should adjust his speed accordingly to allow proper separation. If you are number one for approach, then by all means, keep up your speed (within SOPs and ATC's approval of course) to minimise delays.
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Often I have been forced to slow up because a 744 or 777 is at 155 knots at 4000ft while I'm planning a 230 knot at 1500ft approach in my 73.
When I fly behind an SIA aircraft I feel their approach speed is too slow.
Since the JOG accident... "strict adherence to stabilized approach policy"... so, the old timers think... "Hey, we get paid per actual flight hours... let's do 210 from 20,000 all the way!" Now, that's holding things up for a little "spare change" !
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With the advent of TCAS, its quite easy to spot traffic trends and position oneself in the scheme of any approach in most places. The exception being high density airfields like Kennedy, or Chicago, etc.
The one thing you do not want to do as an international aviator, is to expect others to think, or perform the way YOU feel it should be done.
The one thing you do not want to do as an international aviator, is to expect others to think, or perform the way YOU feel it should be done.
harharhar