Retire expat pilots, regulator warns; meeting tomorrow
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Retire expat pilots, regulator warns; meeting tomorrow
Retire expat pilots, regulator warns; meeting tomorrow - Economy and Politics - livemint.com
Retire expat pilots, regulator warns; meeting tomorrow
Around 500 expats working in the country at present; move may help 3,000 out-of-work local pilots
Tarun Shukla
New Delhi: In a move that could help some of the estimated 3,000 unemployed Indian pilots to find jobs, the Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) has sternly warned Indian carriers to retire expats flying their aircraft by June or face the risk of their operations being curtailed.
An aviation boom led to the launch of several new carriers in the middle of the decade amid a shortage of local pilots, forcing the newcomers to recruit foreigners to fly their planes.
The same boom also encouraged several young Indian students to train for a pilot’s career before the slump in aviation last year led airlines to reduce capacity and sack staff, grounding several fliers.
To convey the seriousness of its warning, DGCA has called a meeting of all the airline chief executive officers on Friday in the capital.
“The government is trying to help the unemployed pilots and implement the phase out (of expats) plan,” said a senior official at a Mumbai-based carrier, who didn’t want to be named.
Beyond June, airlines would need to justify having expat pilots on board. The regulator would grant approvals to keep expat pilots only on a case-to-case basis.
There are around 500 expat pilots employed at Indian carriers, said a DGCA official, who too asked not to be named. “We will be reviewing the progress of the airlines” in implementing the directive, this official added.
With about eight months left to meet the deadline, airlines will have to make sure they have enough Indian pilots who are qualified to move to the commander’s seat from being a co-pilot.
The airline official cited above said one full-service carrier, not his, has about 50 Indian co-pilots who are fit for command but who aren’t being promoted. “This will force carriers to do that,” the official said.
When an Indian pilot is upgraded to the commander’s seat, it will allow an unemployed pilot on the ground to take over the co-pilot’s vacant position, he added.
The DGCA needs to first freeze the issue of fresh expat licences, said Mohan Ranganathan, an air safety expert and a former pilot.
“On one hand, when the deadline is 1 July 2010, the fact that they are issuing permissions for expat pilots, while there are many Indian co-pilots who can be upgraded, beats logic”, he said.
Retire expat pilots, regulator warns; meeting tomorrow
Around 500 expats working in the country at present; move may help 3,000 out-of-work local pilots
Tarun Shukla
New Delhi: In a move that could help some of the estimated 3,000 unemployed Indian pilots to find jobs, the Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) has sternly warned Indian carriers to retire expats flying their aircraft by June or face the risk of their operations being curtailed.
An aviation boom led to the launch of several new carriers in the middle of the decade amid a shortage of local pilots, forcing the newcomers to recruit foreigners to fly their planes.
The same boom also encouraged several young Indian students to train for a pilot’s career before the slump in aviation last year led airlines to reduce capacity and sack staff, grounding several fliers.
To convey the seriousness of its warning, DGCA has called a meeting of all the airline chief executive officers on Friday in the capital.
“The government is trying to help the unemployed pilots and implement the phase out (of expats) plan,” said a senior official at a Mumbai-based carrier, who didn’t want to be named.
Beyond June, airlines would need to justify having expat pilots on board. The regulator would grant approvals to keep expat pilots only on a case-to-case basis.
There are around 500 expat pilots employed at Indian carriers, said a DGCA official, who too asked not to be named. “We will be reviewing the progress of the airlines” in implementing the directive, this official added.
With about eight months left to meet the deadline, airlines will have to make sure they have enough Indian pilots who are qualified to move to the commander’s seat from being a co-pilot.
The airline official cited above said one full-service carrier, not his, has about 50 Indian co-pilots who are fit for command but who aren’t being promoted. “This will force carriers to do that,” the official said.
When an Indian pilot is upgraded to the commander’s seat, it will allow an unemployed pilot on the ground to take over the co-pilot’s vacant position, he added.
The DGCA needs to first freeze the issue of fresh expat licences, said Mohan Ranganathan, an air safety expert and a former pilot.
“On one hand, when the deadline is 1 July 2010, the fact that they are issuing permissions for expat pilots, while there are many Indian co-pilots who can be upgraded, beats logic”, he said.
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I am all in favour of this kind of thing but being from the Uk we are branded racist if we mention it. They were talking about this on the African/Nigerian forum a while back. Surely if its good enough for one country its good enough for all. If we reset the status que and everybody returned to their own countries I wonder which ones would lose out.
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....I wonder which ones would lose out.
When smokin' holes are examined and found to contain local pilots at the bottom, experienced expats will be invited, once again.
Have seen it happen all too often to consider otherwise.
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Hypocrits
Not long ago in the UK foreign doctors (a lot of Indians) were having their visa refused or not renewed. The Bristish government had an oversupply of British doctors graduating from university and no jobs to go to. In India there was a cry of RACISM. There were marches in the streets, reports throughout the Indian papers... "We Indians brinig a level of professionalism to the British Medical System that they do not have! They need us. We have experience, these graduating college students do not" was the common theme!
When I worked in India I was referred to as "you damn foreigner" & given the rosters that the arrogant Indian cmdrs refused. Many, many, many attempts were made for me to pass pilots in sim checks and line checks even though they could not land the airplane, had zero CRM or upheld basic SOPs. (So I resigned).
175-200 hr CPL pilot in the RHS of a 777 or 747 where they cannot land the aircraft, legally or otherwise.
On the flight deck for hours on end with a senior AI cmdr who would not talk to me due my race, skin color and heritage.
The multiple woes at AI blamed on the foreigners where the root cause is rampant corruption, raw incompetance, unaccountability and pure arrogance.
RACISM is screamed from the highest mounutains of India yet people are murdered for their caste. Imagine if an Indian married a "damn foreigner" or another person from a different caste?! Her own brother(s) or father would poor acid on her face for the shame bought to the family.
Now get rid of the foreigners who bring a level of professionalism and expertise to a pitiful and decaying airline. All to be seen to "save face" and hire school children struggling to decifer the inbound radial let alone unable to fly straight and level on a downwind circuit with AP, AT and FD's off. Same with far too many cmdrs.
Replace the foreign TREs/TRIs with national pilots given the role not for the skill in teaching or ability but due seniority alone. Even if they can't land a raw data ILS with AP, AT and FD's off in 25 kt crosswind, give them their TRE/TRI staus anyway.
You want rampant racism? Go to India.
Yep, as ATPMBA stated, kick out the many 1000's of Indians taking jobs in America. Kick out the Indian taxi drivers in Australia & NZ, kick out the Indian doctors in the UK.... Give jobs to the local nationals instead!! What's good for one is good for the other. But, the Indians will start marching again and throwing about that dispicable term RACISM. Cheap.
These moves in Indian aviation will culminate in a crater in the ground. Mark my words. An arrogant autocratic and abusive Cmdr with a 175 hr subservant FO in bad weather and perhaps an onbaord failure or poor weather?
Everyone knows what is going on but no one will do anything. I hope and pray that my predictions do not come true. If it does, I'll bet you'll find a way to blame the foreigners for it.
When I worked in India I was referred to as "you damn foreigner" & given the rosters that the arrogant Indian cmdrs refused. Many, many, many attempts were made for me to pass pilots in sim checks and line checks even though they could not land the airplane, had zero CRM or upheld basic SOPs. (So I resigned).
175-200 hr CPL pilot in the RHS of a 777 or 747 where they cannot land the aircraft, legally or otherwise.
On the flight deck for hours on end with a senior AI cmdr who would not talk to me due my race, skin color and heritage.
The multiple woes at AI blamed on the foreigners where the root cause is rampant corruption, raw incompetance, unaccountability and pure arrogance.
RACISM is screamed from the highest mounutains of India yet people are murdered for their caste. Imagine if an Indian married a "damn foreigner" or another person from a different caste?! Her own brother(s) or father would poor acid on her face for the shame bought to the family.
Now get rid of the foreigners who bring a level of professionalism and expertise to a pitiful and decaying airline. All to be seen to "save face" and hire school children struggling to decifer the inbound radial let alone unable to fly straight and level on a downwind circuit with AP, AT and FD's off. Same with far too many cmdrs.
Replace the foreign TREs/TRIs with national pilots given the role not for the skill in teaching or ability but due seniority alone. Even if they can't land a raw data ILS with AP, AT and FD's off in 25 kt crosswind, give them their TRE/TRI staus anyway.
You want rampant racism? Go to India.
Yep, as ATPMBA stated, kick out the many 1000's of Indians taking jobs in America. Kick out the Indian taxi drivers in Australia & NZ, kick out the Indian doctors in the UK.... Give jobs to the local nationals instead!! What's good for one is good for the other. But, the Indians will start marching again and throwing about that dispicable term RACISM. Cheap.
These moves in Indian aviation will culminate in a crater in the ground. Mark my words. An arrogant autocratic and abusive Cmdr with a 175 hr subservant FO in bad weather and perhaps an onbaord failure or poor weather?
Everyone knows what is going on but no one will do anything. I hope and pray that my predictions do not come true. If it does, I'll bet you'll find a way to blame the foreigners for it.
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hmmm
Well I think the reason why american companies employ a high number of Indians is beacuse they cannot find the same skill level among the locals and also not to mention its is cheaper to employ an Indian and he/she works for more hours for less money. Where as in the Indian aviation sector it is the other way.
Moreover the DGCA is not asking the airlines to get rid of all foreigh pilots overnight and replace them with less experienced or under qualified pilots. What they are saying is despite havin experienced FO's who are qualified to move to the left seat they are still being made to fly as FO's. I am not saying that every experinced FO's would qualify or have the skill level to become a captain, some don't but most do.
Some of the private airlines still continue to hire or still have foreign FO's. I think its ok in case if they are flying the big jets like the 777's etc. but to have foreing FO's on 320's, 737's and ATR's is not really required since there are a lot of Indian pilots sitting on the ground with type ratings.
Moreover the DGCA is not asking the airlines to get rid of all foreigh pilots overnight and replace them with less experienced or under qualified pilots. What they are saying is despite havin experienced FO's who are qualified to move to the left seat they are still being made to fly as FO's. I am not saying that every experinced FO's would qualify or have the skill level to become a captain, some don't but most do.
Some of the private airlines still continue to hire or still have foreign FO's. I think its ok in case if they are flying the big jets like the 777's etc. but to have foreing FO's on 320's, 737's and ATR's is not really required since there are a lot of Indian pilots sitting on the ground with type ratings.
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@TopTup
These moves in Indian aviation will culminate in a crater in the ground. Mark my words. An arrogant autocratic and abusive Cmdr with a 175 hr subservant FO in bad weather and perhaps an onbaord failure or poor weather?Thanks for your concern. But I guess we are fine. We hav'nt had american or british pilots flying our aircrafts forever. We lasted for decades without your services. And I don't know when you last flew in India but things are changing. What you would refer to as "arrogant autocratic and abusive Cmdrs" (mostly AI and IC cmdrs) are all set to retire in the next couple of years and the new cmdrs/capts are far better than them.
175-200 hr CPL pilot in the RHS of a 777 or 747 where they cannot land the aircraft, legally or otherwise.
Its not done just in India it happens in airlines all over the world. Singapore airlines, Etihad and BA are some I can recall. They hire their cadets with zero hours send them to a flight school and then they get a type rating on a wide body and start flying as FO's. I don't see what you are complaning about.
And most of the things you have mentioned in your post happen all over the world. I can't imagine what a perfect world you are living in. You will have sloppy, arrogant, good for nothing cmdrs in most airlines around the world.
And change takes time. Its not going to happen overnight.
And btw what you have faced in India we Indians face the same when we come to your country because of the cultural differences. I am not saying that it is a good thing but then thats how it is.
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@Top Tup
.
Lemme tell you expats only came here because of the sudden boom in aviation and our inability to train pilots in time for it.As capacity is reduced and people are redundant expats will go back.Any expat who thought this was gonna last forever has himself to blame.
And what do you suggest the 4000 unemployed newbies do.If we go by you they should never ever get a job cause there is nowhere they can get the experience YOU THINK they need.
.
Lemme tell you expats only came here because of the sudden boom in aviation and our inability to train pilots in time for it.As capacity is reduced and people are redundant expats will go back.Any expat who thought this was gonna last forever has himself to blame.
And what do you suggest the 4000 unemployed newbies do.If we go by you they should never ever get a job cause there is nowhere they can get the experience YOU THINK they need.
Last edited by Capt Apache; 13th Nov 2009 at 06:11.
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OK...Here we go again. One at a time....
Apache:
Where did the "illusion of grandeur" come from? What comment did I make of myself other than I could not tolerate the practices at AI so left? Yes, you may have 33 Crore Gods, try praying to them the next time a girl has acid thrown on her face or a man is killed, or a child is thrown on a fire all due to their CASTE. All facts as reported in your newspapers. Please also read my post again before makinig such dispicable claims that I want to see lives lost. You sick, sick inidividual. I PRAY it doesn't happen but my tertiary qualifications in CRM and previous experience can see those Swiss cheese slices lining up. So could you if you could remove your head from the sand. I suggest the 4000 CPL holders go and look for a job flying ANYTHING! I met enough parents and actual CPL holders themselves who deem a C210 let alone an ATR "below" them. Props?! They DEMAND a B777 straight away, and it happened. Do your research before you try to rebut anything I've written.
FLYJET787:
No, you are not fine. You should ALWAYS seek and hire the best you can find to provide the optimum safety you can achieve. Be that from in house training or hiring from outside. No, those arrogant, autocratic Cmdrs are still there in their droves. They believe since I was treated such a way it is my right to do the same. Please DO NOT tell me that an FO feels comfortable to correct his/her Cmdr without fear of being abused. It happened when i was there and I know it still goes on from sources still working there. Yes SIN, CX, BA, EY, QF, etc, etc all have cadetships. BUT! They offer stringent, precise and demanding training. Those who do not make the grade are cut, and rightly so. I was personally pressured to pass so many pilots that COULD not have passed that I left. Colleagues tell me of FOs unable to fly a raw data ILS, let along follow the idiot bars (FD's). I witnessed first hand an FO unable to maintain +/- 400 ft on downwind doing ccts in AHM. The result of her assesment by the HEAD OF 777 TRAINING?? - "SATISFACTORY". When I quizzed him he told me "We cannot afford to have FO's on the ground and give extra training. We need them online." I received an email from a VERY senior AI (Indian) TRE a few months ago whom I stay in regular contact with. He was offered a bribe to pass a Cmdr whom he had to fail. The result? The TRE was called into the office to explain himself! The failed Cmdr was given a DXB shuttle and of course, "SATISFACTRY". The TRE was given a wrap over the knuckles!!! So, those are FACTS!
No, all these things DO NOT happen all over the world as rampnat as they do at AI. An FO at DECENT airlines is taught to speak up and the Capt has the humility and CRM skills to listen to the FO. NOT SO AT AI! Saying "it is what it is" makes me question: Are you part of the problem or part of the cure?
Gents, don't worry. With AI trying to cut expat salaries by 20% they'll all walk if it happens and you'll retain your God-like status as Kings of the Sky, answerable to no-one but your own self serving arrogance and head in the sand mentality.
Why were there moves by the FAA and ICAO to relegate AI to ICAO Cat 2? I suppose "it is what it is" and you can cry foul? No, AI earnt it and EVERY pilot there, expat or other who permits the dispicable conditions to remain is part of the cause.
Yep, get rid of the expats and replace expertise and experience with children. SMART! Real SMART!
Not going to reply to any other posts denying the facts as written. Just can't be bothered!!! A waste of my time. Do your own research before refuting ANY of them.
Apache:
Where did the "illusion of grandeur" come from? What comment did I make of myself other than I could not tolerate the practices at AI so left? Yes, you may have 33 Crore Gods, try praying to them the next time a girl has acid thrown on her face or a man is killed, or a child is thrown on a fire all due to their CASTE. All facts as reported in your newspapers. Please also read my post again before makinig such dispicable claims that I want to see lives lost. You sick, sick inidividual. I PRAY it doesn't happen but my tertiary qualifications in CRM and previous experience can see those Swiss cheese slices lining up. So could you if you could remove your head from the sand. I suggest the 4000 CPL holders go and look for a job flying ANYTHING! I met enough parents and actual CPL holders themselves who deem a C210 let alone an ATR "below" them. Props?! They DEMAND a B777 straight away, and it happened. Do your research before you try to rebut anything I've written.
FLYJET787:
No, you are not fine. You should ALWAYS seek and hire the best you can find to provide the optimum safety you can achieve. Be that from in house training or hiring from outside. No, those arrogant, autocratic Cmdrs are still there in their droves. They believe since I was treated such a way it is my right to do the same. Please DO NOT tell me that an FO feels comfortable to correct his/her Cmdr without fear of being abused. It happened when i was there and I know it still goes on from sources still working there. Yes SIN, CX, BA, EY, QF, etc, etc all have cadetships. BUT! They offer stringent, precise and demanding training. Those who do not make the grade are cut, and rightly so. I was personally pressured to pass so many pilots that COULD not have passed that I left. Colleagues tell me of FOs unable to fly a raw data ILS, let along follow the idiot bars (FD's). I witnessed first hand an FO unable to maintain +/- 400 ft on downwind doing ccts in AHM. The result of her assesment by the HEAD OF 777 TRAINING?? - "SATISFACTORY". When I quizzed him he told me "We cannot afford to have FO's on the ground and give extra training. We need them online." I received an email from a VERY senior AI (Indian) TRE a few months ago whom I stay in regular contact with. He was offered a bribe to pass a Cmdr whom he had to fail. The result? The TRE was called into the office to explain himself! The failed Cmdr was given a DXB shuttle and of course, "SATISFACTRY". The TRE was given a wrap over the knuckles!!! So, those are FACTS!
No, all these things DO NOT happen all over the world as rampnat as they do at AI. An FO at DECENT airlines is taught to speak up and the Capt has the humility and CRM skills to listen to the FO. NOT SO AT AI! Saying "it is what it is" makes me question: Are you part of the problem or part of the cure?
Gents, don't worry. With AI trying to cut expat salaries by 20% they'll all walk if it happens and you'll retain your God-like status as Kings of the Sky, answerable to no-one but your own self serving arrogance and head in the sand mentality.
Why were there moves by the FAA and ICAO to relegate AI to ICAO Cat 2? I suppose "it is what it is" and you can cry foul? No, AI earnt it and EVERY pilot there, expat or other who permits the dispicable conditions to remain is part of the cause.
Yep, get rid of the expats and replace expertise and experience with children. SMART! Real SMART!
Not going to reply to any other posts denying the facts as written. Just can't be bothered!!! A waste of my time. Do your own research before refuting ANY of them.
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I have read your posts before and for the past 1 year you have been complaining from a thousand miles away how AI treated you badly and how grandeur your intentions were.When I think of you I remember this story from Panchtantra.
There was a King who kept glorifying his cat.It acted in all the noble ways.His minister who was quite turned off let rats out of a bag one day when the cat was parading its nobility.The cat forgot its royal allegiance and went wildly after the rats.
Moral of the story
As long as we are in our comfort zone we do well but real men manage well in all habitat..Years back when I was disillusioned and frustrated a wise man told me "This is the way the system works.If you are upto it find a way around the system".You coudnt find a way around the system..And now you complain about a system you changed nothing about.
There was a King who kept glorifying his cat.It acted in all the noble ways.His minister who was quite turned off let rats out of a bag one day when the cat was parading its nobility.The cat forgot its royal allegiance and went wildly after the rats.
Moral of the story
As long as we are in our comfort zone we do well but real men manage well in all habitat..Years back when I was disillusioned and frustrated a wise man told me "This is the way the system works.If you are upto it find a way around the system".You coudnt find a way around the system..And now you complain about a system you changed nothing about.
Last edited by Capt Apache; 13th Nov 2009 at 06:27.
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Yes, you may have 33 Crore Gods, try praying to them the next time a girl has acid thrown on her face or a man is killed, or a child is thrown on a fire all due to their CASTE.
There is another India that is progressive and inclusive that they'd rather not look at.There is another India with a vibrant industry and a resurgent economy that completely evades their consciousness.Either they are blind and ignorant or they just hate to see us progress as that would deny them the oppurtinity to laugh at some1.
Last edited by Capt Apache; 13th Nov 2009 at 06:26.
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Apache, Toptup has made some valid points here. It is your chance to rebutt him. You have made some good posts in the recent past, but your last two have attacked the man instead of his points.
Thats a trick politicians use, and i believe that you can do better.
Thats a trick politicians use, and i believe that you can do better.
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Next time you smoke or allow others to smoke on the flightdeck, keep the flightdeck door unlocked, abuse an FO or say nothing as FO to your Cmdr, touch the MCP when you are not PF, make a radio call when you are the PF... I hope you can sit back and happilly believe that all the world is stupid but YOU.
I regret parts of my earlier post that were personal and sincerely apologize for it.
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I want the best person to fly my aircraft regardless of color, nationality or religion. If there is a price to pay so be it, lets not try and put a price to human life.
There are millions of student going abroad to study and it must be for a reason. Therefore foreigners working in India should be taken as a learning experience. Fight against the corruption that allows less skilled ones to come in by all means, but don't brand all as expats as bad and in the same time expats don't brand all Indian pilots as spoilt bratty or incompetent.
I am sure there are good and bad apples in every system and every industry in the world. If everyone was an Einstein or a superman it would be a boring place to live in.........
There are millions of student going abroad to study and it must be for a reason. Therefore foreigners working in India should be taken as a learning experience. Fight against the corruption that allows less skilled ones to come in by all means, but don't brand all as expats as bad and in the same time expats don't brand all Indian pilots as spoilt bratty or incompetent.
I am sure there are good and bad apples in every system and every industry in the world. If everyone was an Einstein or a superman it would be a boring place to live in.........
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sure.....let's zero in on the Indian aviation scene, and only pick up the incidents that happened when local pilots were operating, let's ignore about the expats that landed various Indian aircrafts on the wrong runways and caused various incidents.
what?? Oh ....Colgan air, Delta et al as per the rumour thread... fatal accidents, and dangerous incidents? The flights were also operated by locals not expats
Having said that, I still think that airlines should consider the pilots best qualified for the job and should not terminate the contracts of some of the expats if they are better qualfied than the Indians.
what?? Oh ....Colgan air, Delta et al as per the rumour thread... fatal accidents, and dangerous incidents? The flights were also operated by locals not expats
Having said that, I still think that airlines should consider the pilots best qualified for the job and should not terminate the contracts of some of the expats if they are better qualfied than the Indians.
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Expats
I couldn't agree more, hire the best for the job particularly with expansion and opening new international routes there should be no compromise----hire the experience!
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Well Said Captain
On the flight deck for hours on end with a senior AI cmdr who would not talk to me due my race, skin color and heritage.
I am not mentioning that none of Indians show racism, they show both xenophilia and xenophobia.
The multiple woes at AI blamed on the foreigners where the root cause is rampant corruption, raw incompetance, unaccountability and pure arrogance.
RACISM is screamed from the highest mounutains of India yet people are murdered for their caste. Imagine if an Indian married a "damn foreigner" or another person from a different caste?! Her own brother(s) or father would poor(sic) acid on her face for the shame bought to the family.
RACISM is screamed from the highest mounutains of India yet people are murdered for their caste. Imagine if an Indian married a "damn foreigner" or another person from a different caste?! Her own brother(s) or father would poor(sic) acid on her face for the shame bought to the family.
Now get rid of the foreigners who bring a level of professionalism and expertise to a pitiful and decaying airline. All to be seen to "save face" and hire school children struggling to decifer the inbound radial let alone unable to fly straight and level on a downwind circuit with AP, AT and FD's off. Same with far too many cmdrs.
You want rampant racism? Go to India.
Yep, as ATPMBA stated, kick out the many 1000's of Indians taking jobs in America. Kick out the Indian taxi drivers in Australia & NZ, kick out the Indian doctors in the UK.... Give jobs to the local nationals instead!! What's good for one is good for the other. But, the Indians will start marching again and throwing about that dispicable term RACISM. Cheap.
Of course its racism. There is no other word.
These moves in Indian aviation will culminate in a crater in the ground. Mark my words. An arrogant autocratic and abusive Cmdr with a 175 hr subservant FO in bad weather and perhaps an onbaord failure or poor weather?
Everyone knows what is going on but no one will do anything. I hope and pray that my predictions do not come true. If it does, I'll bet you'll find a way to blame the foreigners for it
Everyone knows what is going on but no one will do anything. I hope and pray that my predictions do not come true. If it does, I'll bet you'll find a way to blame the foreigners for it
If you really have a point to put across try to be a bit less acerbic. The way you harp on to 175-200 seems like you have lost it. I bet you have never flown with any FO with just 175 hrs in India. At the same time I am sure you must have evaluated sufficient number of FO and captain who don't meet the bill.
The first cut reaction after reading that vitriol from otherwise sensible person is somewhat like "Do you need any assistance, Sir?"
Try, just try to be a little nicer.
Last edited by jimmygill; 15th Nov 2009 at 01:11.
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I want the best person to fly my aircraft regardless of color, nationality or religion. If there is a price to pay so be it, lets not try and put a price to human life.
Can it be changed? Yes, but not through expats. Expats are not a solution to systemic problem, they are a solution to running the airline for short term. The kind of change we are looking for has to be brought in by a strong and honest leadership, may it be the CEO, Chairman, Fleet Commander, DGCA or Minister.
Flying is an easy skill, its not like we are trying to develop skills for thermonuclear fusion and we will need experts in the field. Fortunately a lot of literature is available in public domain. Expats are not 'experts', they are pilots with more hours... which we need for a time being.. safety culture, SOP, promotions policy, are something which can be handled without expat pilots or management. Expats or others who think expats are crucial in getting a good safety culture are akin to the belief "the sun rises because mankind has to wake up and go to work". Misplaced causality.
It is a challenging thing to work in cross cultural environments. I am sure there are expats who have taken up the challenge and quietly performing and improving things.
There are millions of student going abroad to study and it must be for a reason. Therefore foreigners working in India should be taken as a learning experience. Fight against the corruption that allows less skilled ones to come in by all means, but don't brand all as expats as bad and in the same time expats don't brand all Indian pilots as spoilt bratty or incompetent.
True and completely agreeable.
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Having sat on the ground at Mumbai for nearly 3 hours trying to get start-up last week after the ATR 72 mishap / runway closure / bad wx event , and listening to the local aircrew ranting non-stop at the poor ground controller who was manfully trying to get them out of there , I was wondering if the bad attitude ( which they would not dare do in Dubai / Europe etc ) was caused by poor professionalism or the apparent disdain Indians show for anyone of a perceived 'lower' status ? It was quite disturbing to listen to .
I did enjoy the ME controller last week who ignored an AI pilot saying ' AIXXX , Descent' 3 times until he used the word 'Request Descent ' whereupon the controller piped up ' Thats better , cleared descend.........' !!
On another note , if , as has been reported , the government ie DGCAM/DCA is ordering the removal of expats by June , why are they allowing Air India Express to recruit more expats as witnessed in the foreign press recently ? Will they be offering 3 month contracts ( the other 3 months of the next 6 months will be used to issue the licences etc )
Fly Safe
KK
I did enjoy the ME controller last week who ignored an AI pilot saying ' AIXXX , Descent' 3 times until he used the word 'Request Descent ' whereupon the controller piped up ' Thats better , cleared descend.........' !!
On another note , if , as has been reported , the government ie DGCAM/DCA is ordering the removal of expats by June , why are they allowing Air India Express to recruit more expats as witnessed in the foreign press recently ? Will they be offering 3 month contracts ( the other 3 months of the next 6 months will be used to issue the licences etc )
Fly Safe
KK
Join Date: Nov 2004
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At Spicejet, expat contracts that are coming up for renewal are being extended only until the DGCA deadline as the airline does not know how the DGCA will rule. In anycase, even if the airline were to renew a contract for 1-3 years, it really won't really mean much because ultimately the DGCA ruling will be controlling. Having a contract in hand will not mean much.
Spicejet has upgraded quite a few Indian candidates (some who jumped ship from other airlines) and right now Captain staffing seems quite adequate.
I think JetAirways, AirIndia and Indigo have quite a few expat Capts. Spicejet probably has around 50-60 if I am not mistaken. Usually on any given day, one-third or more are on their leave rotation (which is unpaid). In my opinion, in 12-18 months, the need for expats will be significantly reduced to probably 60% or less. I believe currently there are around 500 expats in India.
Spicejet has upgraded quite a few Indian candidates (some who jumped ship from other airlines) and right now Captain staffing seems quite adequate.
I think JetAirways, AirIndia and Indigo have quite a few expat Capts. Spicejet probably has around 50-60 if I am not mistaken. Usually on any given day, one-third or more are on their leave rotation (which is unpaid). In my opinion, in 12-18 months, the need for expats will be significantly reduced to probably 60% or less. I believe currently there are around 500 expats in India.