(cvr) Tape Transcript Of Alliance Air B-737 Aircraft
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@Anito(whatever.......)
NOW u've really asked for it buster.
If u r as stupid as ur post claims to be then the explanation below shall make no sense to u whatsoever.If u r an aviator then start looking asap for a second job!
CFIT......u moron,is just that.Controlled......!! Right until the time the frieking thing becomes a hole in the ground.Whence onwards it becomes UNCONTROLLED and a frieking crash,for crying out aloud
.If it was "CONTROLLED" all the way to the ground then why the f#@k did it crash u idiot......think about that.The only so called "controlled" flight into terrain by ur definition would be if the 2 pilots on the flt deck were dead.....!! Only then would there be no response a nano second from inevitable crash.But that's not what happens in Cfit is it.Cfit is by definition,an airworthy airplane burning a hole into the ground,without wx or any apparent malfunctions playing a part.It is wholly attributed to pilot error(or human error).Doesnt matter how u skin the cat.Do u even KNOW why the frieking stall warning was rattling for soooo very long with no response from "very un incapacitated" pilots.NO......so keep ur uneducated guesses to urself and get back to that flight sim u nleft on the console.Cause thats where u belong,the armchair.
Jeeeese......
NOW u've really asked for it buster.
If u r as stupid as ur post claims to be then the explanation below shall make no sense to u whatsoever.If u r an aviator then start looking asap for a second job!
CFIT......u moron,is just that.Controlled......!! Right until the time the frieking thing becomes a hole in the ground.Whence onwards it becomes UNCONTROLLED and a frieking crash,for crying out aloud
.If it was "CONTROLLED" all the way to the ground then why the f#@k did it crash u idiot......think about that.The only so called "controlled" flight into terrain by ur definition would be if the 2 pilots on the flt deck were dead.....!! Only then would there be no response a nano second from inevitable crash.But that's not what happens in Cfit is it.Cfit is by definition,an airworthy airplane burning a hole into the ground,without wx or any apparent malfunctions playing a part.It is wholly attributed to pilot error(or human error).Doesnt matter how u skin the cat.Do u even KNOW why the frieking stall warning was rattling for soooo very long with no response from "very un incapacitated" pilots.NO......so keep ur uneducated guesses to urself and get back to that flight sim u nleft on the console.Cause thats where u belong,the armchair.Jeeeese......
Last edited by boeingdream787; 1st Aug 2009 at 15:16. Reason: Addition of expletives....
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Boeingdream787:
Just out of curiousity,when does a controlled part of the CFIT become uncontrolled? In other words,at some point in the crash sequence ,both dudes in the cockpit are passengers. Case in point: the BEA Trident accident in the UK many years ago. The two pilots managed to put a perfectly serviceable aircraft into a full deep stall and rode that airplane all the way to the scene of the crash. In your definition that would constitute a CFIT.By mine (and I suspect, a lot of other folks here) at some point in the sequence the aircraft was technically no longer in control.Aerodynamics and gravity had take over. Never mind if the two 'unincapacitated' dudes pulled,pushed and stepped on everything within reach.
Careful how you respond here. Just trying to have a civil conversation to add to the debate. I am not easily intimidated by fancy monikers,bad language or great credentials. Saw a lot of that in the Service and see some even today.
Your serve, I believe.
Alt3.
Just out of curiousity,when does a controlled part of the CFIT become uncontrolled? In other words,at some point in the crash sequence ,both dudes in the cockpit are passengers. Case in point: the BEA Trident accident in the UK many years ago. The two pilots managed to put a perfectly serviceable aircraft into a full deep stall and rode that airplane all the way to the scene of the crash. In your definition that would constitute a CFIT.By mine (and I suspect, a lot of other folks here) at some point in the sequence the aircraft was technically no longer in control.Aerodynamics and gravity had take over. Never mind if the two 'unincapacitated' dudes pulled,pushed and stepped on everything within reach.
Careful how you respond here. Just trying to have a civil conversation to add to the debate. I am not easily intimidated by fancy monikers,bad language or great credentials. Saw a lot of that in the Service and see some even today.
Your serve, I believe.
Alt3.
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FAA CFIT Definition:
CFIT occurs when an airworthy aircraft is flown, under the control of a
qualified pilot, into terrain (water or obstacles) with inadequate awareness
on the part of the pilot of the impending collision.
CASA take on CFIT:
For an accident or incident (occurrence) to
be classified as a CFIT, it must satisfy the
following criteria:
The aircraft is under control of the pilot(s);
There is no defect or unserviceability that
would prevent normal operation of the
aircraft;
There was an in-flight collision with terrain,
water, or obstacles; and
The pilot(s) had little or no awareness of the
impending collision.
"...among these human errors, the loss of
situational awareness is the major factor,
while other contributing factors include:
Pilot/flight crew complacency
Lapses in procedure arising from
complacency created by, for example,
repeat flights to the same airport on the
same route.
Lack of awareness and training
Inadequate pre-flight planning; inadequate
training for flight crews in using equipment,
runway approach aids, altimeter-setting
procedures, and knowing and following
standard operating procedures.
Weather – especially VFR pilots flying
into IMC
Fatigue/’Push-on-itis’
Long flight times, early morning or late night
landings, when the circadian cycle is at its
lowest point. Failure to have an alternative
route - a ‘Plan B’ – to cover the unexpected,
eliminating the need to push on.
Breakdown in communication – poor
communication between ATC and pilot;
flight crew.
Non-precision approaches with the lack
of vertical guidance – hence the ICAO
recommendations for implementation of
approaches with vertical guidance (APV)."
b787 - "If it was "CONTROLLED" all the way to the ground then why the f#@k did it crash u idiot......think about that.The only so called "controlled" flight into terrain by ur definition would be if the 2 pilots on the flt deck were dead.....!!"
Enjoy the read!
Controlled flight into terrain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
CFIT occurs when an airworthy aircraft is flown, under the control of a
qualified pilot, into terrain (water or obstacles) with inadequate awareness
on the part of the pilot of the impending collision.
CASA take on CFIT:
For an accident or incident (occurrence) to
be classified as a CFIT, it must satisfy the
following criteria:
The aircraft is under control of the pilot(s);
There is no defect or unserviceability that
would prevent normal operation of the
aircraft;
There was an in-flight collision with terrain,
water, or obstacles; and
The pilot(s) had little or no awareness of the
impending collision.
"...among these human errors, the loss of
situational awareness is the major factor,
while other contributing factors include:
Pilot/flight crew complacency
Lapses in procedure arising from
complacency created by, for example,
repeat flights to the same airport on the
same route.
Lack of awareness and training
Inadequate pre-flight planning; inadequate
training for flight crews in using equipment,
runway approach aids, altimeter-setting
procedures, and knowing and following
standard operating procedures.
Weather – especially VFR pilots flying
into IMC
Fatigue/’Push-on-itis’
Long flight times, early morning or late night
landings, when the circadian cycle is at its
lowest point. Failure to have an alternative
route - a ‘Plan B’ – to cover the unexpected,
eliminating the need to push on.
Breakdown in communication – poor
communication between ATC and pilot;
flight crew.
Non-precision approaches with the lack
of vertical guidance – hence the ICAO
recommendations for implementation of
approaches with vertical guidance (APV)."
b787 - "If it was "CONTROLLED" all the way to the ground then why the f#@k did it crash u idiot......think about that.The only so called "controlled" flight into terrain by ur definition would be if the 2 pilots on the flt deck were dead.....!!"
Enjoy the read!
Controlled flight into terrain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
@Anito(whatever.......)
NOW u've really asked for it buster.
If u r as stupid as ur post claims to be then the explanation below shall make no sense to u whatsoever.If u r an aviator then start looking asap for a second job!
CFIT......u moron,is just that.Controlled......!! Right until the time the frieking thing becomes a hole in the ground.Whence onwards it becomes UNCONTROLLED and a frieking crash,for crying out aloud .If it was "CONTROLLED" all the way to the ground then why the f#@k did it crash u idiot......think about that.The only so called "controlled" flight into terrain by ur definition would be if the 2 pilots on the flt deck were dead.....!! Only then would there be no response a nano second from inevitable crash.But that's not what happens in Cfit is it.Cfit is by definition,an airworthy airplane burning a hole into the ground,without wx or any apparent malfunctions playing a part.It is wholly attributed to pilot error(or human error).Doesnt matter how u skin the cat.Do u even KNOW why the frieking stall warning was rattling for soooo very long with no response from "very un incapacitated" pilots.NO......so keep ur uneducated guesses to urself and get back to that flight sim u nleft on the console.Cause thats where u belong,the armchair.
Jeeeese......
NOW u've really asked for it buster.
If u r as stupid as ur post claims to be then the explanation below shall make no sense to u whatsoever.If u r an aviator then start looking asap for a second job!
CFIT......u moron,is just that.Controlled......!! Right until the time the frieking thing becomes a hole in the ground.Whence onwards it becomes UNCONTROLLED and a frieking crash,for crying out aloud .If it was "CONTROLLED" all the way to the ground then why the f#@k did it crash u idiot......think about that.The only so called "controlled" flight into terrain by ur definition would be if the 2 pilots on the flt deck were dead.....!! Only then would there be no response a nano second from inevitable crash.But that's not what happens in Cfit is it.Cfit is by definition,an airworthy airplane burning a hole into the ground,without wx or any apparent malfunctions playing a part.It is wholly attributed to pilot error(or human error).Doesnt matter how u skin the cat.Do u even KNOW why the frieking stall warning was rattling for soooo very long with no response from "very un incapacitated" pilots.NO......so keep ur uneducated guesses to urself and get back to that flight sim u nleft on the console.Cause thats where u belong,the armchair.
Jeeeese......
It was you who said that it was CFIT, and that CFIT is the same as stall. Here it is, and I quote from your post, in reply to smiling monkey;
The '360 degree turn' or 'orbit on final' has since ben rendered illegal and banned unless the landing aerodrome is positively identified.The "commander" of the flight was shortly being upgraded to check pilot and the F/O was due for a commander's upgrade.The FO was doing the sector (illegally) from the LHS and the Capt was "instructing" from RHS.Both were drinking till 3 AM in their hotel room for a 6 AM departure.No breathalyser was conducted,but this was ascertained from the PM reports and the hotel queries and investigations.Pure CFIT,this one!
.A stall is uncontrolled flight. CFIT is controlled. And seriously boeingdream787, this is something even a PPL would know.
It was you who said it was "pure CFIT". Not me, nor anyone else. The aircraft stalled. Period.By the way, check the post above from WIKI44 for the definition of CFIT. You might learn something.
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well well well din't know that this post will go so long , but thats good , a healthy disccussion is always appreciated . I would like to clarify at this point that this thread was not posted to start a blame game or to hurt the feelings of someone who's not there. Mistake was made and we just want to learn out of it so that in future it's not reapeated bacuase a lot of people are at risk.
The debate on CFIT was quite interesting .... but as i said earlier its nowhere a CFIT both pilots were so much glued on losing height and to put down that aircraft on ground that they forgot the basics , in a turn without sufficent power you will tend to lose airspeed resulting in a stall , in report it also says that that FDR recorded a high attitude angle during the turn , guess thers something called as an autopilot !!!! why don't we use equipments when they are meant to be used creating unnecessary workload
" the safest device in an aircraft is a safe and able pilot "
Lets not start fighting on this issue , learn from this so that its not repeated in future .
The debate on CFIT was quite interesting .... but as i said earlier its nowhere a CFIT both pilots were so much glued on losing height and to put down that aircraft on ground that they forgot the basics , in a turn without sufficent power you will tend to lose airspeed resulting in a stall , in report it also says that that FDR recorded a high attitude angle during the turn , guess thers something called as an autopilot !!!! why don't we use equipments when they are meant to be used creating unnecessary workload
" the safest device in an aircraft is a safe and able pilot "
Lets not start fighting on this issue , learn from this so that its not repeated in future .
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Loss of Control
the "control" in CFIT refers to the fact that IF the Pilots were Situationally aware about the correct location of terrain....They would have had sufficient A/C control to avoid it.(the reason for CFIT ,is not because the A/C was not in control,but because the crew had lost the realtime picture of where the terrain was,and hence flown into it with an A/C which was under their full control)
The second largest cause of accidents after CFIT, is loss of Control in flight....your typical"stall and spin into the ground on finals" general aviation scenerio.Can also happen in transport category jets without "envelope protection"
The second largest cause of accidents after CFIT, is loss of Control in flight....your typical"stall and spin into the ground on finals" general aviation scenerio.Can also happen in transport category jets without "envelope protection"
Last edited by leftseatview; 4th Aug 2009 at 18:39.
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Leftseat,
Are you seriously suggesting that something like JFK Jr.'s crash was CFIT??
Let us not over think this. Read the definitions once again and let us accept,once and for all,what the difference between CFIT and a stall/spin accident is.
Alt3.
Are you seriously suggesting that something like JFK Jr.'s crash was CFIT??
Let us not over think this. Read the definitions once again and let us accept,once and for all,what the difference between CFIT and a stall/spin accident is.
Alt3.
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Alt 3
a)CFIT and b) LOSS of CONTROL are two seperate categories of Accidents.
PATNA was Loss of Control,not CFIT
Air Force TU 124 with Morarji Desai at Jorhat was Loss of Control(Stall on turn to finals)
AHMEDABAD/IMPHAL/GUWAHATI/BAHRAIN/SOCHI are classic CFITs(BAH and SOCHI due disorientation at night)
JFK jr was disoriention resulting in either CFIT or Loss of control(will have to locate the report...was there in Long Island when he went missing with wife and wife's sis)
Could be similar to John Denver on the Long Easy
Early 727 accidents were failure to comprehend that jet a/c can be nose down well below horizon, but still in a stalled condition.(need to "UNLOAD", and fight the urge to pull back on Control Column,till out of stall)
Trident had Capts coronary as a factor
Rather than split hair on defination,it would be smarter to recognize and gaurd against known hazards in this lne of work
a)CFIT and b) LOSS of CONTROL are two seperate categories of Accidents.
PATNA was Loss of Control,not CFIT
Air Force TU 124 with Morarji Desai at Jorhat was Loss of Control(Stall on turn to finals)
AHMEDABAD/IMPHAL/GUWAHATI/BAHRAIN/SOCHI are classic CFITs(BAH and SOCHI due disorientation at night)
JFK jr was disoriention resulting in either CFIT or Loss of control(will have to locate the report...was there in Long Island when he went missing with wife and wife's sis)
Could be similar to John Denver on the Long Easy
Early 727 accidents were failure to comprehend that jet a/c can be nose down well below horizon, but still in a stalled condition.(need to "UNLOAD", and fight the urge to pull back on Control Column,till out of stall)
Trident had Capts coronary as a factor
Rather than split hair on defination,it would be smarter to recognize and gaurd against known hazards in this lne of work
