Zest Airways MA60 crash landing in Caticlan - Boracay?
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Lyndon
A quick add on .. in case you bother to reply.
Having worked with professional pilots for various projects, no pilot worth his salt will fly, if the plane is not safe or poorly maintained.
As for the "incadent" you mentioned, the cause of the crash is unknown, and leaning towards CFIT in bad weather. Now are you accusing the company who owned the plane, and also placing a un-fair concern on the people who fly them as passenger and also as crew ?
I was observing the pre flights in some domestic airports, and the pilots and engineers were more than thorough and delaying departure until they were really satisfied. Remember one thing - if a pilot is foolish enough to fly passengers to their death - by agreeing to fly 'dangerous planes', that also means he is on a suicide mission by knowingly flying unsafe planes to his own death also..
Now, before I crawl back to my hole in the wall, what kind of pilot are you? and what do you fly? and what makes you fly unsafe airways?
Enough said.
Having worked with professional pilots for various projects, no pilot worth his salt will fly, if the plane is not safe or poorly maintained.
As for the "incadent" you mentioned, the cause of the crash is unknown, and leaning towards CFIT in bad weather. Now are you accusing the company who owned the plane, and also placing a un-fair concern on the people who fly them as passenger and also as crew ?
I was observing the pre flights in some domestic airports, and the pilots and engineers were more than thorough and delaying departure until they were really satisfied. Remember one thing - if a pilot is foolish enough to fly passengers to their death - by agreeing to fly 'dangerous planes', that also means he is on a suicide mission by knowingly flying unsafe planes to his own death also..
Now, before I crawl back to my hole in the wall, what kind of pilot are you? and what do you fly? and what makes you fly unsafe airways?
Enough said.
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Many moons ago
Many moons ago I was asigned in the Islands and flew a DHC6-300 into Caticlan. At that time it was really only a Twotter airstrip and for Islanders and some small GenAv aircraft.
I must say that strip was challenging also for that type of operation specially during the rainy season "diving" behind the hill into the strip.
I've looked at the charts and for any aircraft bigger than an ATR 42 it is a suicidal airstrip except with heavy penalties.
I've seen and even flown as a pax on the MA60. The aircraft looks at first glance "okay" but don't look into the performance of this lady. She is flying like a old bomber aircraft even from regular airfields.
My questions are simple and straight to the point: How could the ATO give the aircraft a type certification and why does ATO permit this "lazy granny" to land in an airfield like that?
Maybe someone/two/three could gimme a fair answer to that.
I must say that strip was challenging also for that type of operation specially during the rainy season "diving" behind the hill into the strip.
I've looked at the charts and for any aircraft bigger than an ATR 42 it is a suicidal airstrip except with heavy penalties.
I've seen and even flown as a pax on the MA60. The aircraft looks at first glance "okay" but don't look into the performance of this lady. She is flying like a old bomber aircraft even from regular airfields.
My questions are simple and straight to the point: How could the ATO give the aircraft a type certification and why does ATO permit this "lazy granny" to land in an airfield like that?
Maybe someone/two/three could gimme a fair answer to that.
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twotter
twotter said it best.
to possibly answer his question.....
they allowed it because the "book" said it was within the performance capability, albeit in standard conditions.
rumor, even the competitor's expat training captains have their reservations flying their european turbo-prop into Caticlan. (Naturally, they know that a "standard" condition is desirable, but the real world condition is not always "standard")
for as long as that hill at the end of rwy06 remains and the runway is not lengthened, and pilots remain human, i fear there will be more accidents at Caticlan.
to possibly answer his question.....
My questions are simple and straight to the point: How could the ATO give the aircraft a type certification and why does ATO permit this "lazy granny" to land in an airfield like that?
rumor, even the competitor's expat training captains have their reservations flying their european turbo-prop into Caticlan. (Naturally, they know that a "standard" condition is desirable, but the real world condition is not always "standard")
for as long as that hill at the end of rwy06 remains and the runway is not lengthened, and pilots remain human, i fear there will be more accidents at Caticlan.
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MA - 60 landing
I was mesmerized by the MA 60 landing in Manila - always came in fast, and always nose down, and flared only at the last moment.
I thought my eyes were deceiving me - until I saw the picture
Seems the MA 60 drifts in Nose down and has a rock solid Nose Gear - I hope they don't get points for a Nose-strike ..
I thought my eyes were deceiving me - until I saw the picture
Seems the MA 60 drifts in Nose down and has a rock solid Nose Gear - I hope they don't get points for a Nose-strike ..
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Only in the Philippines!
@ eliptic
Seeing the pics I also would say so. I have never seen in my carrier - and i've about 15,000 hrs + - a Turboprop landing constantly like this, not even the MA60s in Laos! They will soon have a major nosegear malfunction. This type of landing is calling for it!
To the aircraft type to be operated into Caticlan I think the following aircraft are suitable without penalty under the present RWY conditions:
It is absolute stuoidity and ignorance on the part of your ATO to let these 3 types operate under real world conditions in Caticlan.
I have made - according to my logbook - 812 ldgs in Caticlan with one rejected take-off and man I tell you: I sweat blood rejecting that take-off at around 70 kts because of sudden power drop on both engines for unkown reasons!
The MA60 is not the aircraft you wanna be on whit PAX load to t/o or land in that strip. For the ATR72 and the Q400 it looks to me from the charts more possible but still risky. You have to drop your PAX load to about 50% to be somewhat in the safe area for these type of operation but not on full load in and definetly not on full load or even 60-70% load out.
But as in the good old times, money seems to get you anywhere and everywhere in the Philippines and what is the worth for a human life according to insurance premiums in the Phils? Pesos 50,000 (~US$ 1,000 or so)!
Guess you guys flying in the beautiful islands would know it better but from my viewpoint: In the spirit of safety I would dare flying into Caticlan with any of the birds above because McKillroy is watching you!
If it goes 10,000 times right there will be a 10,001 time when something goes wrong and than you hurt or even kill PEOPLE!
Btw. is the airstrip in Sicogon Island still operating and which airline/s are operating there? Was one of my favorite dirt strips in the islands.
Hi,
I am quite often flying Manila -Caticlan,what A/C would you say is "safe" to fly there??
I never fly Zest again thats for for shore
I am quite often flying Manila -Caticlan,what A/C would you say is "safe" to fly there??
I never fly Zest again thats for for shore
To the aircraft type to be operated into Caticlan I think the following aircraft are suitable without penalty under the present RWY conditions:
- BN2
- Do228
- Do328
- DHC6-300 and the new -400
- DHC7
- to a certain extend the ATR42
- to a certain extend the DHC8-300
It is absolute stuoidity and ignorance on the part of your ATO to let these 3 types operate under real world conditions in Caticlan.
I have made - according to my logbook - 812 ldgs in Caticlan with one rejected take-off and man I tell you: I sweat blood rejecting that take-off at around 70 kts because of sudden power drop on both engines for unkown reasons!
The MA60 is not the aircraft you wanna be on whit PAX load to t/o or land in that strip. For the ATR72 and the Q400 it looks to me from the charts more possible but still risky. You have to drop your PAX load to about 50% to be somewhat in the safe area for these type of operation but not on full load in and definetly not on full load or even 60-70% load out.
But as in the good old times, money seems to get you anywhere and everywhere in the Philippines and what is the worth for a human life according to insurance premiums in the Phils? Pesos 50,000 (~US$ 1,000 or so)!
Guess you guys flying in the beautiful islands would know it better but from my viewpoint: In the spirit of safety I would dare flying into Caticlan with any of the birds above because McKillroy is watching you!
If it goes 10,000 times right there will be a 10,001 time when something goes wrong and than you hurt or even kill PEOPLE!
Btw. is the airstrip in Sicogon Island still operating and which airline/s are operating there? Was one of my favorite dirt strips in the islands.
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Sicogon
The runway on Sicogon Island is still there but special arrangements need to be made in order to land there because it is no longer actively used. The company was forclosed by the creditor banks in the 80s and the island is full of squatters and former residents that have returned after having been relocated.
I used to fly there in the late 70s.
I used to fly there in the late 70s.
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Crash: Services Air AN26 at Isiro on May 26th 2009, impacted ground on approach
an AN26 crashed in Congo. That's the original design of the MA60. I like the comment to this crash in the lower part:
Isn't this also the case with the MA60s over in the Philippines?
The Island of the Philippines should be included.
an AN26 crashed in Congo. That's the original design of the MA60. I like the comment to this crash in the lower part:
"Antonov should stop producing the pieces of crap. Give it a year and the whole problem of them plowing in left, right and centre should have solved itself. Mainly because they'll have all crashed by then. "
Although Russian built aircrafts have received a bad rap throuh the years folling many crashes, they are just as sound as American built aircrafts. What makes an aircraft unsafe is a lack of prevenative maintaince, and routine checks carried out by highly trained maintaince staff.
Although Russian built aircrafts have received a bad rap throuh the years folling many crashes, they are just as sound as American built aircrafts. What makes an aircraft unsafe is a lack of prevenative maintaince, and routine checks carried out by highly trained maintaince staff.
O'Dear,
Them flying barrels of unairworthiness seem to have a one in one chance of crashing.
Antonov should stop producing the pieces of crap. Give it a year and the whole problem of them plowing in left, right and centre should have solved itself. Mainly because they'll have all crashed by then.
Once they've all crashed the Market Traders in the Congo can get on with some trading without having to live in constant fear of some giant Russian rusted up tube of unquestionable death missiling it into their Market Place!
Them flying barrels of unairworthiness seem to have a one in one chance of crashing.
Antonov should stop producing the pieces of crap. Give it a year and the whole problem of them plowing in left, right and centre should have solved itself. Mainly because they'll have all crashed by then.
Once they've all crashed the Market Traders in the Congo can get on with some trading without having to live in constant fear of some giant Russian rusted up tube of unquestionable death missiling it into their Market Place!
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Pest Air will never learn!
Now they are buying additional 6 MA60s. Wtf, has the Philippine CAAP never learned fromt the experience with the latest crash or is somebody lining his pockets there?
ATW Daily News
ATW Daily News
Zest orders six more MA60s
Wednesday June 3, 2009
Zest Air of the Philippines placed an order for six additional MA60s. The carrier, formerly Asian Spirit, already operates five of the Chinese-built aircraft and expects to take delivery of the newly ordered planes starting in October. Two more will arrive in December, with the remaining three coming next year, AVIC's Xi'an Aircraft Industry Co. said. The MA60 has received 92 firm orders, with letters of intent signed for another 70. The MA600 has received 12 orders.
Wednesday June 3, 2009
Zest Air of the Philippines placed an order for six additional MA60s. The carrier, formerly Asian Spirit, already operates five of the Chinese-built aircraft and expects to take delivery of the newly ordered planes starting in October. Two more will arrive in December, with the remaining three coming next year, AVIC's Xi'an Aircraft Industry Co. said. The MA60 has received 92 firm orders, with letters of intent signed for another 70. The MA600 has received 12 orders.
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MA60
When ist Yao learning from the experience of MERPATI? And when is your CAAP/ATO waking up that this bird is unsafe? Does it need another crash?
ANTARA News: Merpati to decide continuation of MA-60 procurement: Minister
According to records over in the Philippines Yao paid for all 5 aircraft only US$57 million. Indonesia seems to line their pockets more with the purchase!
Over in Laos they also have problems with the operation of this piece of flying coffin. One could say: ONLY in the Philippines!
ANTARA News: Merpati to decide continuation of MA-60 procurement: Minister
Merpati to decide continuation of MA-60 procurement: Minister
akarta (ANTARA News) - Transportation Minister Jusman Syafii Djamal said it is up to Merpati Nusantara Airlines whether or not it would continue its purchase of Xian MA-60s following its finding of a crack on the tale of the Chinese made aircraft.
The minister said that Merpati had the full rights to continue the procurement or not because it was a matter of business between the producer and the consumer.
"After the cause of the structural damage to one of the two MA-60s is found it would be up to Merpati whether it would continue or not," the minister said here on Friday.
The minister made the remarks in response to Merpati`s step to ground one of the two Xian MA-60s it has purchased from China because it found a crack on the tale of one of the two planes late last month.
Merpati and Xian must cooperate and have coordination to find the cause of the crack on the tale of the plane which was sold at a price of 15 million dollars.
akarta (ANTARA News) - Transportation Minister Jusman Syafii Djamal said it is up to Merpati Nusantara Airlines whether or not it would continue its purchase of Xian MA-60s following its finding of a crack on the tale of the Chinese made aircraft.
The minister said that Merpati had the full rights to continue the procurement or not because it was a matter of business between the producer and the consumer.
"After the cause of the structural damage to one of the two MA-60s is found it would be up to Merpati whether it would continue or not," the minister said here on Friday.
The minister made the remarks in response to Merpati`s step to ground one of the two Xian MA-60s it has purchased from China because it found a crack on the tale of one of the two planes late last month.
Merpati and Xian must cooperate and have coordination to find the cause of the crack on the tale of the plane which was sold at a price of 15 million dollars.
The minister said that the causes of the damage must be found whether it was caused by operational mistakes, mistake during its production or during its assembling.
"If the causes are technical, it should also be discussed technically. It is a matter of business between the producer and consumer," he said.
The minister said he had also been told by Xian MA-60 factory that all of the damaged components had been taken to China.
Previously, the Indonesian National Air Carrier Association (INACA) said that the commitment of Xian MA-60 producer whose products were operated by Merpati was worth questioning.
"We are surprised to hear it. The management of Boeing or Airbus companies is very quick in giving response to a problem," INACA Secretary General Tengku Burhanuddin said.
"If the causes are technical, it should also be discussed technically. It is a matter of business between the producer and consumer," he said.
The minister said he had also been told by Xian MA-60 factory that all of the damaged components had been taken to China.
Previously, the Indonesian National Air Carrier Association (INACA) said that the commitment of Xian MA-60 producer whose products were operated by Merpati was worth questioning.
"We are surprised to hear it. The management of Boeing or Airbus companies is very quick in giving response to a problem," INACA Secretary General Tengku Burhanuddin said.
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Zest Air blames bad weather as plane overshoots runway
Manila Times
NEW player and budget airline Zest Airways Inc. blamed bad weather after flight Z2-863 overshot the runway at Caticlan Thursday morning, which prompted the Civil Aviation Authority of the Philippines (CAAP) to close the airport until Friday.
Zest Air owner Alfredo Yao said the MA60 plane with tail number RPC 8992 exceeded the runway of Godofredo Ramos Airport in Caticlan, Aklan because of the abnormal weather.
Just in April this year, another Zest Air plane, formerly Asian Spirit, also experienced the same incident at the Caticlan airport.
Yao said Zest Airs five MA60 planes were brand-new and the company never used the aircrafts of the old Asian Spirit.
Yao assured that other domestic flights of Zest Air are in normal operation.
Old planes - not always bad planes ..
And even the BAe 146 flies in shorter runways, where the MA 60 would scrape the fence off the air fields ..
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Last time I was passing by Pasay, I saw them engine-less. Not sure if they have been disposed of, or who owned them in the first place.
The Dash-7 would have made an excellent option to re-start ops into Basco and other places.
The Dash-7 would have made an excellent option to re-start ops into Basco and other places.