Cebu Pacific
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ATR FOS
jolibee,
I am no expert but this is my understanding;
The FOS weight is the approved MTOW, it would appear that you have 22.5t. The 22.8t is a mod that you get from ATR by paying the right amount.
MTOW 22.5t equates to MZFW of 20.5t, MTOW 22.8t equates to MZFW 20.8t. This means that the ATR can carry fuel of 2.0t on every occassion without impacting load so long as FOS allows a Non-limiting take-off or 22.5t MTOW.
Using your example for Laoag, with a fuel load of 1.6t the MTOW weight would be MZFW + Fuel = 22.1t.
The ATR has 4 weight limits, if MTOW 22,500 then, Max Ramp 22,670, MZFW 20,500 and Max Landing 22,350. If any of these limits are breached then you can't go. I.e total take off weight can not be greater than 22.5t; MZFW + fuel is the limit if less than 22.5t; Trip fuel + Max Ldg the limit if less than 22.5t. If the FOS Max is less than the three possible limits then it is the limiting factor. Make sense???
Our FOS makes the temp correction (-5to+37C) and the QNH correction for 10mb block from 1013hpa to 993hpa. QNH below or above we further correct. Below subtract 24kg per hpa, above add 8kg per hpa to the 22.5 limit. We don't ever use the Max Ramp figure.
Hope this helps, feel free to point out errors.
Cheers
jolibee,
I am no expert but this is my understanding;
The FOS weight is the approved MTOW, it would appear that you have 22.5t. The 22.8t is a mod that you get from ATR by paying the right amount.
MTOW 22.5t equates to MZFW of 20.5t, MTOW 22.8t equates to MZFW 20.8t. This means that the ATR can carry fuel of 2.0t on every occassion without impacting load so long as FOS allows a Non-limiting take-off or 22.5t MTOW.
Using your example for Laoag, with a fuel load of 1.6t the MTOW weight would be MZFW + Fuel = 22.1t.
The ATR has 4 weight limits, if MTOW 22,500 then, Max Ramp 22,670, MZFW 20,500 and Max Landing 22,350. If any of these limits are breached then you can't go. I.e total take off weight can not be greater than 22.5t; MZFW + fuel is the limit if less than 22.5t; Trip fuel + Max Ldg the limit if less than 22.5t. If the FOS Max is less than the three possible limits then it is the limiting factor. Make sense???
Our FOS makes the temp correction (-5to+37C) and the QNH correction for 10mb block from 1013hpa to 993hpa. QNH below or above we further correct. Below subtract 24kg per hpa, above add 8kg per hpa to the 22.5 limit. We don't ever use the Max Ramp figure.
Hope this helps, feel free to point out errors.
Cheers
Last edited by kiwilad; 18th Apr 2009 at 21:26. Reason: just coz
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Many thanks to the answer about the Weight Limit on the ATR.
I only ask because if we are in an outstation without any limitation on the FOS, why is it that we are in a structural limit situation if MZFW is to be never exceeded. I brought this up once in a flight and gave the Pilot in Command the weight limit for takeoff at 22.5 after reviewing the FOS (Non-Limiting) and he said the weight limit would be less than 22.5t because of structural limitations due in part because we had less fuel.
I thought about it and said to myself, regardless of the amount of fuel our weight limit is 22.5 max takeoff as long as our MZFW is never exceeded.
Also in Caticlan, the Special Operationg Procedures states we need to review our weather at Caticlan and determine the landing weight through the FOS which would determine our Weight Limit at takeoff from Manila. I have been doing that and some captains have stated that the Weight limit is 22.5 when departing Manila. Which is correct? I reviewed the Special Procedures and it states
" Prior to departure from Manila; check Caticlan runway condition and determine limitation at landing at Caticlan and this weight will determine limitation at take off from Manila."So is this limit Landing Limit plus Trip Fuel and Fuel burn out?
Many thanks again
I only ask because if we are in an outstation without any limitation on the FOS, why is it that we are in a structural limit situation if MZFW is to be never exceeded. I brought this up once in a flight and gave the Pilot in Command the weight limit for takeoff at 22.5 after reviewing the FOS (Non-Limiting) and he said the weight limit would be less than 22.5t because of structural limitations due in part because we had less fuel.
I thought about it and said to myself, regardless of the amount of fuel our weight limit is 22.5 max takeoff as long as our MZFW is never exceeded.
Also in Caticlan, the Special Operationg Procedures states we need to review our weather at Caticlan and determine the landing weight through the FOS which would determine our Weight Limit at takeoff from Manila. I have been doing that and some captains have stated that the Weight limit is 22.5 when departing Manila. Which is correct? I reviewed the Special Procedures and it states
" Prior to departure from Manila; check Caticlan runway condition and determine limitation at landing at Caticlan and this weight will determine limitation at take off from Manila."So is this limit Landing Limit plus Trip Fuel and Fuel burn out?
Many thanks again
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Jb said
You are both right. The performance limit would be 22.5t but the practical (or actual) limit would be the MZFW+Fuel=less than 22.5t if fuel less than 2.0t. At the operation we are in we only tell ops if the weight is anything less than max, i.e MTOW 22.5t.
You have different types in all operations. If the roster means you don't have to fly with the pilots your not so happy with, let it go. Get them talking about themselves and if they are more experienced let them talk about that, you may just learn something. At the end of the day you take on board only what you want to.
What are the IFR approaches like into the ATR ports for Cebu? NDB, VOR/DME, GPS/RNAV?
"I only ask because if we are in an outstation without any limitation on the FOS, why is it that we are in a structural limit situation if MZFW is to be never exceeded. I brought this up once in a flight and gave the Pilot in Command the weight limit for takeoff at 22.5 after reviewing the FOS (Non-Limiting) and he said the weight limit would be less than 22.5t because of structural limitations due in part because we had less fuel."
You have different types in all operations. If the roster means you don't have to fly with the pilots your not so happy with, let it go. Get them talking about themselves and if they are more experienced let them talk about that, you may just learn something.
At the end of the day you take on board only what you want to.What are the IFR approaches like into the ATR ports for Cebu? NDB, VOR/DME, GPS/RNAV?
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it all depends o what is "approved" or not by the authorities over there in Philipines
the book's might say 22,8t or even 23 tons for take of weight (like the table in the QRH for the heviest takeoff weight).
the point here its what legally been approved by the law
in this type of issues you might wanna become a lawyer for 30 minutes
& find out really whats been laid down on the rule book
never mind the FOS..............'cause at the end someone from the airline or elsewhere was given some figures and loaded them in
i dont know cebu fleet, but does it come with the "boost" option ?
which engines they have 127F or M ?
the book's might say 22,8t or even 23 tons for take of weight (like the table in the QRH for the heviest takeoff weight).
the point here its what legally been approved by the law
in this type of issues you might wanna become a lawyer for 30 minutes
& find out really whats been laid down on the rule book
never mind the FOS..............'cause at the end someone from the airline or elsewhere was given some figures and loaded them in
i dont know cebu fleet, but does it come with the "boost" option ?
which engines they have 127F or M ?
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I think the last couple of ATR's for Cebu have had the PW127M engine. Not quite sure what the boost is but sounds exciting but is probably not!
Jumpdrive I was assuming that Cebu are approved to 22.5t. 22.8 definitely makes a difference, the numbers say it will do it but only by the barest margin. The 300kg is definitely noticeable in takeoff accerleration and initial climb.
Jester_I and Jobliee, so what are the majority of approaches for the ATR on the Cebu network?
Jobliee said :
As Caticlan is the limiting point then the Maximum available Take off figure from Caticlan plus trip fuel from Manila would give you the maximum to depart Manila with. Even though Caticlan is short I wouldn't think you would be landing weight limited in. Happy to be corrected on that. But 950m odd would mean always limited on the way out. Around 20t at best, does that sound right? Looks like fun on Youtube!
Thanks in advance for your answers.
Cheers
Jumpdrive I was assuming that Cebu are approved to 22.5t. 22.8 definitely makes a difference, the numbers say it will do it but only by the barest margin. The 300kg is definitely noticeable in takeoff accerleration and initial climb.
Jester_I and Jobliee, so what are the majority of approaches for the ATR on the Cebu network?
Jobliee said :
" Prior to departure from Manila; check Caticlan runway condition and determine limitation at landing at Caticlan and this weight will determine limitation at take off from Manila."So is this limit Landing Limit plus Trip Fuel and Fuel burn out?
Thanks in advance for your answers.
Cheers
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ATR Approaches
Most approaches are done VISUALLY to our outstations. When it comes to major airports like Manila, Cebu, and Davao they have the capacity to conduct instrument approach procedures.
Though there are some exceptions to the rule of course. There are some outstations that have instrument approaches like BCD, ZAM, ILO, and airports that can accommodate the A320/19.
Most of the time its get under, find the airport, and land.
Though there are some exceptions to the rule of course. There are some outstations that have instrument approaches like BCD, ZAM, ILO, and airports that can accommodate the A320/19.
Most of the time its get under, find the airport, and land.
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Filipino talaga
Cessna95,
" Cadet CL, we are waiting for you" ??
What else could this mean?, " waiting for you" ; wait til ; endorsed ; whatever... Im very sure, it wont be pleasant for the new guy in town.
Filipino attitude talaga - Magan, you guys will never change.
Just an advised, please grow up.
Cheers,
Cessna1052
" Cadet CL, we are waiting for you" ??
What else could this mean?, " waiting for you" ; wait til ; endorsed ; whatever... Im very sure, it wont be pleasant for the new guy in town.
Filipino attitude talaga - Magan, you guys will never change.
Just an advised, please grow up.
Cheers,
Cessna1052
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I know Cadet CL and "she" is a former model. enough said, I think you guys should be able to figure it out why Cessna95 said that...
Cessna95 you dirty dog, get your head off the gutter,..... he-he-he, she already has a boyfriend... .....he-he-he
Cessna95 you dirty dog, get your head off the gutter,..... he-he-he, she already has a boyfriend... .....he-he-he
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well the post's on this thread only proves 1 thing
that here you come to bitch , whine, & B.S. each other
get a life guys
with all the "ho's" in manila, ur waiting 4 an so callled ex model
you make me laugh guys, like ur gonna score in the flightdeck with her
seriuosly ........................grow up!
go work!, live or whatever else u do when not here
that here you come to bitch , whine, & B.S. each other
get a life guys
with all the "ho's" in manila, ur waiting 4 an so callled ex model
you make me laugh guys, like ur gonna score in the flightdeck with her
seriuosly ........................grow up!
go work!, live or whatever else u do when not here
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change
let's assume for the sake of sanity that it was just a sick joke by a 5J pilot. 
(we cannot even be sure that cessna95 is really a 5J pilot!)
i asked the question in the interest of verifying some interesting stuff i heard back in the PI, the land of my birth and youthful memories... (although granted this is a rumor network, i'm starting to second guess myself why i even bothered to ask the question here...)
5J is a pioneer in the MPL, so the success of MPL cadets can only be good news to 5J's standing in aviation around the world. It fills me with great pride as a Filipino knowing that a Philippine airline has done this understandably risky/ controversial venture when i talk to aviation enthusiasts here in the US.
having said that, and being a student of human nature, i can fairly understand some bloke in 5J feeling a little threatened for his job because of the new kids on the block, so to speak, or even to try and intimidate newcomers in the spirit of "initiation" through some harmless, and ultimately funny pranks.
however i seriously hope that the really crude and sick joke is not reflective of 5J culture to bash on the newcomer/s. threatening them with some "we are waiting for you" innuendos, i have been taught, is not so professional.
(we cannot even be sure that cessna95 is really a 5J pilot!)i asked the question in the interest of verifying some interesting stuff i heard back in the PI, the land of my birth and youthful memories... (although granted this is a rumor network, i'm starting to second guess myself why i even bothered to ask the question here...)
5J is a pioneer in the MPL, so the success of MPL cadets can only be good news to 5J's standing in aviation around the world. It fills me with great pride as a Filipino knowing that a Philippine airline has done this understandably risky/ controversial venture when i talk to aviation enthusiasts here in the US.
having said that, and being a student of human nature, i can fairly understand some bloke in 5J feeling a little threatened for his job because of the new kids on the block, so to speak, or even to try and intimidate newcomers in the spirit of "initiation" through some harmless, and ultimately funny pranks.
however i seriously hope that the really crude and sick joke is not reflective of 5J culture to bash on the newcomer/s. threatening them with some "we are waiting for you" innuendos, i have been taught, is not so professional.
cessna95 is waiting for what..???
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cessna95, depraved you are not
why fantasize on someone you cannot?
Northwesterly winds, a hero for a hooker
a shoulder to cry on, is this a new chapter?
I have been on the sidelines for so long
and I guess this has to stop
Expatula has said it, enough is enough
you guys should have better things to do
than to roant about counts
I know there is an O
And I know you know too
Goodbye, good day, good night to one and all
blue skies and UV rays for the rest of our days
Reedeye
why fantasize on someone you cannot?
Northwesterly winds, a hero for a hooker
a shoulder to cry on, is this a new chapter?
I have been on the sidelines for so long
and I guess this has to stop
Expatula has said it, enough is enough
you guys should have better things to do
than to roant about counts
I know there is an O
And I know you know too
Goodbye, good day, good night to one and all
blue skies and UV rays for the rest of our days
Reedeye
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F I N A L L Y
thank you to all of you!!
look cessna 95, take it from cessna 1052!!!
GROW UP... do not be CHEAP!! ... like cheap pia mountain!!! do not be envious, do not be insecure, do not be a power tripper, do not do not and ever let people know your birdy is small... AND DO NOT TAKE IT ON THE NEWBIES...FIGHT THE GIANTS...FIGHT JUST OLOL....OR SOMEBODY BIGGER THEN YOU AND I WILL SALUTE YOU!
if she was former FHM... then i am proud for her! i salute her and i give my thumbs up that she can flaunt all that!
she is new in flying...then give her a BREAK!
Y, ....WERE U BORN WITH WINGS??? IDIOT!!
look cessna 95, take it from cessna 1052!!!
GROW UP... do not be CHEAP!! ... like cheap pia mountain!!! do not be envious, do not be insecure, do not be a power tripper, do not do not and ever let people know your birdy is small... AND DO NOT TAKE IT ON THE NEWBIES...FIGHT THE GIANTS...FIGHT JUST OLOL....OR SOMEBODY BIGGER THEN YOU AND I WILL SALUTE YOU!
if she was former FHM... then i am proud for her! i salute her and i give my thumbs up that she can flaunt all that!
she is new in flying...then give her a BREAK!
Y, ....WERE U BORN WITH WINGS??? IDIOT!!
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To all friends in 5J, dare I say
Tis' not about being cheap and so gay
In darkest days and blackest night
A beacon will shine to show us a light
It points to a poser, who hooked to a loser
In who's quest to break, the head did shake
Safety is cheap, his ego be ripped
Used the wrong head
Her dream is now dead
And now he is MAD
Because FHM was BAD
Fly like a butterfly, sting like a bee
No captain an airhead can be
Reedeye
Tis' not about being cheap and so gay
In darkest days and blackest night
A beacon will shine to show us a light
It points to a poser, who hooked to a loser
In who's quest to break, the head did shake
Safety is cheap, his ego be ripped
Used the wrong head
Her dream is now dead
And now he is MAD
Because FHM was BAD
Fly like a butterfly, sting like a bee
No captain an airhead can be
Reedeye
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Coo Mb
DustWing.....Tell us more as I heard he is a poser (imposter)...............He was simply AA Exec Asst and a flight scheduler not a dispatcher but he seemed to fool the current CEA....ha ha - He left SAMA as new CEO at SAMA BA saw through him...............
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mb
take care, he is gonna try to destroy the environment and life quality you have, and usually keeps pushing people to the wrong directions, does not understand about safety at all. He was a disaster to his previous company, and was unanimous among people here that he is an idiot, good talking to his superiors....
be careful
be careful