Great Wall Airlines - Shanghai
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Goodday Green,
Again from my good old folks from SQ,
Mr Green....what wonderful stories have they told you?... As stated earlier, all that is said, promised and written in the contract are likely not to be true.
You will never know when they will give you the actual legal binding chinese contract. Most probably, when you are finally operational in GWA, which is about six months into the job. And the surprises will come next, with all terms and conditions reduced.....
You would probably go back to mummy and cry for your mistake in joining GWA. Your wifey would probably curse you.
Do you think your B747 ratings without B744 PIC hours will bring you anywhere???????? They would have deducted enough from your salary for the type-ratings cost from your lower pay, as compared to the rest of your colleagues.
AJ
Again from my good old folks from SQ,
Mr Green....what wonderful stories have they told you?... As stated earlier, all that is said, promised and written in the contract are likely not to be true.
You will never know when they will give you the actual legal binding chinese contract. Most probably, when you are finally operational in GWA, which is about six months into the job. And the surprises will come next, with all terms and conditions reduced.....
You would probably go back to mummy and cry for your mistake in joining GWA. Your wifey would probably curse you.
Do you think your B747 ratings without B744 PIC hours will bring you anywhere???????? They would have deducted enough from your salary for the type-ratings cost from your lower pay, as compared to the rest of your colleagues.
AJ
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Hi Mr Green,
AJ is absolutely right about his facts.
Only stick hrs are recorded as actual hrs in China. We operates 3 pilots crew. For a 12 hrs flight time, you would clock 8 hrs. To clock 500 PIC hrs to be marketable to Korean Air, you need about 1.5 years. You would have no other options, as you will need to pay 1.9 million if you want to join another B744 operations in China.
Your reduced pay would have compensated for the type-rating cost by then.
Genghis
AJ is absolutely right about his facts.
Only stick hrs are recorded as actual hrs in China. We operates 3 pilots crew. For a 12 hrs flight time, you would clock 8 hrs. To clock 500 PIC hrs to be marketable to Korean Air, you need about 1.5 years. You would have no other options, as you will need to pay 1.9 million if you want to join another B744 operations in China.
Your reduced pay would have compensated for the type-rating cost by then.
Genghis
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Dear Mr Green,
Also from my SQ folks grapevine about more sad stories,
the Relief pilot in cruise on the LHS, gets paid about 20 RMB in additional to what other First Officers are getting... and that's it. If you fly 70 hrs, you get paid 1400 RMB.
Just manage to get a new info -- one of guys who attended the above course, too, has resigned in Jan.
Apparently, the whole RPIC program has been suspended perpetually. GWA had apparently falsifying licenses/experiences of the candidates for the course. By the authorities -- candidates are supposed to have 500 PIC command hrs on narrow body jet . The first group of First Officers that did the course do not have that 500 PIC hrs. The authorities discover it and suspend the program perpetually. The authorities will not approve as it is China.....
Heard the last four FOs in GWA are on the way looking for options outside. There are no upgrades, they tell you stories.......they even tell people there are buying narrow bodies aircrafts to upgrade their First Officers!
AJ
Also from my SQ folks grapevine about more sad stories,
the Relief pilot in cruise on the LHS, gets paid about 20 RMB in additional to what other First Officers are getting... and that's it. If you fly 70 hrs, you get paid 1400 RMB.
Just manage to get a new info -- one of guys who attended the above course, too, has resigned in Jan.
Apparently, the whole RPIC program has been suspended perpetually. GWA had apparently falsifying licenses/experiences of the candidates for the course. By the authorities -- candidates are supposed to have 500 PIC command hrs on narrow body jet . The first group of First Officers that did the course do not have that 500 PIC hrs. The authorities discover it and suspend the program perpetually. The authorities will not approve as it is China.....
Heard the last four FOs in GWA are on the way looking for options outside. There are no upgrades, they tell you stories.......they even tell people there are buying narrow bodies aircrafts to upgrade their First Officers!
AJ
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Mr Green,
In fact, some of you guys have diverted while en-route to Great Wall of China. Reason beings, conditions reported are marginal, and most importantly unreliable.
Some of you guys have diverted to fragance harbour where reported conditions are not as good, but above minimas. Reason beings,
what are reported, are what you get.
Genghis
In fact, some of you guys have diverted while en-route to Great Wall of China. Reason beings, conditions reported are marginal, and most importantly unreliable.
Some of you guys have diverted to fragance harbour where reported conditions are not as good, but above minimas. Reason beings,
what are reported, are what you get.
Genghis
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Thanks Genghis and Akistar,
Will be re-considering again. Yes, they of course didn't tell us bout the other bond - for FOs they told us we would be taking back around 50,000+ rmb/month...sounds about right? Things are not always greener on the other side.
Fragrant Harbour - HKA I would presume!?
Will be re-considering again. Yes, they of course didn't tell us bout the other bond - for FOs they told us we would be taking back around 50,000+ rmb/month...sounds about right? Things are not always greener on the other side.
Fragrant Harbour - HKA I would presume!?
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Goodday Mr Green,
According to reliable sources from the SQ/MAS network,
back in early 2006, there was an AirAsia FO that resigned and jumped ship to GWA. He left AirAsia with a bond, and sign a new contract with GWA.
Apparently, Singapore Python knows about this before taking him. However, when AirAsia found out that this young FO is going to GWA, Mr Fernandes wrote to GWA.
Singapore Python was so ball-less that he asked this guy to leave, giving the excuse that this FO did not perform too good in his simulator sessions. Singapore Python demands that this guys pay off his new bondage with GWA. Singapore Python tried to keep the bank guarantee of SGD35,000.
In the meantime, this ex-AirAsia FO still owned AirAsia a bond that he did not pay off.
Now, the ex-AirAsia FO has two bonds to pay and has no job. Nobody knows what happen to him after that.
Thanks to Singapore Python for his actions.
AJ
According to reliable sources from the SQ/MAS network,
back in early 2006, there was an AirAsia FO that resigned and jumped ship to GWA. He left AirAsia with a bond, and sign a new contract with GWA.
Apparently, Singapore Python knows about this before taking him. However, when AirAsia found out that this young FO is going to GWA, Mr Fernandes wrote to GWA.
Singapore Python was so ball-less that he asked this guy to leave, giving the excuse that this FO did not perform too good in his simulator sessions. Singapore Python demands that this guys pay off his new bondage with GWA. Singapore Python tried to keep the bank guarantee of SGD35,000.
In the meantime, this ex-AirAsia FO still owned AirAsia a bond that he did not pay off.
Now, the ex-AirAsia FO has two bonds to pay and has no job. Nobody knows what happen to him after that.
Thanks to Singapore Python for his actions.
AJ
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AJ & Green,
Of course, there is the other bit where another guy did not make it through the conversion in SIA Cargo for Greatwall Airlines, and this Singapore Python insisted that he paid off the bank guarantee of SGD35000.
This guy was apparently from some flying club in Singapore. He was recruited as FO, and sent to SIA cargo for conversion training. Half-way through the sim sessions, he injured his back, took a one month medical leave, returned to the sim sessions, did not make it through the sim sessions. The Singapore Python tried very hard to keep the SGD35000, instead of trying to give this FO another chance.
Again nobody knows what happens after that.
Genghis
Of course, there is the other bit where another guy did not make it through the conversion in SIA Cargo for Greatwall Airlines, and this Singapore Python insisted that he paid off the bank guarantee of SGD35000.
This guy was apparently from some flying club in Singapore. He was recruited as FO, and sent to SIA cargo for conversion training. Half-way through the sim sessions, he injured his back, took a one month medical leave, returned to the sim sessions, did not make it through the sim sessions. The Singapore Python tried very hard to keep the SGD35000, instead of trying to give this FO another chance.
Again nobody knows what happens after that.
Genghis
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from good old friends working in SIA Cargo,
Too many sad stories in GWA.....
In 2006, when the airline was suspended for 4 months. Singapore Python asked pilots with families in Shanghai to leave their families behind, to go to Singapore to fly for SIA Cargo. Those pilots(basically FOs) with families in Shanghai, were told by Singapore Python to leave behind their families, else faced disciplinary actions, or bad records for their future promotion.
During the 2.5 months in Singapore, zero efforts by Singapore Python to ensure that these pilots operate to Shanghai in their roster to visit their families. During their 2.5 months stinct in SIA Cargo, instructions were passed down, where they are put on standby perpetually in Singapore. Some did not see their families for 1-2 months, and have to buy their own tickets to go back secretly. Facing uncertainties and higher expenses, some of the FOs were basically eating aircrafts food.
Three Captains without much B744 experience were asked to go to SIA cargo and fly on the RHS. Two took the offers; while two guys disappear. GWA chases after them for ...you know what... USD180000 for compensation. Of course, GWA did not manage to get a single cent back, but they kept the SGD 55000 bank guarantee. Today, one of the guy that disappears back to his previous company, is now chief pilot. Good for him.....making the right decision.
Two other captains, one from US and the other due already planned annual leave, were asked by Junior Python to report to Shanghai office daily to mark attendance for two months.
Guys were calling/emailing to Singapore Python for help. Nobody answers his cellphone. Singapore Python claimed that he did not receive any emails too.
AJ
Too many sad stories in GWA.....
In 2006, when the airline was suspended for 4 months. Singapore Python asked pilots with families in Shanghai to leave their families behind, to go to Singapore to fly for SIA Cargo. Those pilots(basically FOs) with families in Shanghai, were told by Singapore Python to leave behind their families, else faced disciplinary actions, or bad records for their future promotion.
During the 2.5 months in Singapore, zero efforts by Singapore Python to ensure that these pilots operate to Shanghai in their roster to visit their families. During their 2.5 months stinct in SIA Cargo, instructions were passed down, where they are put on standby perpetually in Singapore. Some did not see their families for 1-2 months, and have to buy their own tickets to go back secretly. Facing uncertainties and higher expenses, some of the FOs were basically eating aircrafts food.
Three Captains without much B744 experience were asked to go to SIA cargo and fly on the RHS. Two took the offers; while two guys disappear. GWA chases after them for ...you know what... USD180000 for compensation. Of course, GWA did not manage to get a single cent back, but they kept the SGD 55000 bank guarantee. Today, one of the guy that disappears back to his previous company, is now chief pilot. Good for him.....making the right decision.
Two other captains, one from US and the other due already planned annual leave, were asked by Junior Python to report to Shanghai office daily to mark attendance for two months.
Guys were calling/emailing to Singapore Python for help. Nobody answers his cellphone. Singapore Python claimed that he did not receive any emails too.
AJ
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hmmmmm....i heard most of those stories also.
mr. green,
before you jump into the not so greatwall, better what are they actually giving you. they show you figures that you will "receive" as salary. but it is not true. chinese tax can reach 40%.
gratuity pay, is taxed around 40%. so, whatever amount they show you, deduct 40% of it. they will not tell you that. they will tell you that they can get tax exemptions. but it is not true.
one more thing, as a start-up company in china, you get tax exemption for a few years of operation. but why are they taxing all the money they give their pilots? are they claiming to the tax exemption but aske their pilots to pay tax? makes you think how they do things.
pilots are leaving and they don't care. and before you sign the contract, be it chinese or english, ask your buddies about their contracts. this singapore phyton is known to make different contracts for eacj pilots, thinking that pilots will not share info. now, if you sign a small package and found out that your buddies got something better. he will not give you the difference. he will tell you, you already signed the contract.
home leave? don't expect they honor it. they play around it, try their best to con you to give it up. you can't plan your life. they give and take your home leave as they please. change your COP while in AMS. a supposedly 3 day pattern will end up to be 5-6 days. without perdiem. try asking singapore phyton about per diem, he will tell you you don't need it. one more thing, are you aware that his SVP post is his first management post in his life? that is because his brother is a minister in singapore. that is why he doesn't know how to run things. promise you everything and when you ask him to fulfill his promise, he will tell you that he never promised such a thing.
so, all those thinking of joining the not so great wall, good luck to you.
mr. green,
before you jump into the not so greatwall, better what are they actually giving you. they show you figures that you will "receive" as salary. but it is not true. chinese tax can reach 40%.
gratuity pay, is taxed around 40%. so, whatever amount they show you, deduct 40% of it. they will not tell you that. they will tell you that they can get tax exemptions. but it is not true.
one more thing, as a start-up company in china, you get tax exemption for a few years of operation. but why are they taxing all the money they give their pilots? are they claiming to the tax exemption but aske their pilots to pay tax? makes you think how they do things.
pilots are leaving and they don't care. and before you sign the contract, be it chinese or english, ask your buddies about their contracts. this singapore phyton is known to make different contracts for eacj pilots, thinking that pilots will not share info. now, if you sign a small package and found out that your buddies got something better. he will not give you the difference. he will tell you, you already signed the contract.
home leave? don't expect they honor it. they play around it, try their best to con you to give it up. you can't plan your life. they give and take your home leave as they please. change your COP while in AMS. a supposedly 3 day pattern will end up to be 5-6 days. without perdiem. try asking singapore phyton about per diem, he will tell you you don't need it. one more thing, are you aware that his SVP post is his first management post in his life? that is because his brother is a minister in singapore. that is why he doesn't know how to run things. promise you everything and when you ask him to fulfill his promise, he will tell you that he never promised such a thing.
so, all those thinking of joining the not so great wall, good luck to you.
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Thank you again expatdriver, genghis and AJ.
The figures I quoted was told from them that it is "after tax". So now I get the picture. I'll give it a pass - if it be selling nasi ayam to ride the storm, so be it! There are still better opportunities out there - I think many of us are worried we wont have a job after transmile, so we jump without giving much thought. Added to the fact the CP is a Malaysian lead us to believe we are in good hands - but afterall, it's still run by the pythons from the south. Thanks but no thanks.
The figures I quoted was told from them that it is "after tax". So now I get the picture. I'll give it a pass - if it be selling nasi ayam to ride the storm, so be it! There are still better opportunities out there - I think many of us are worried we wont have a job after transmile, so we jump without giving much thought. Added to the fact the CP is a Malaysian lead us to believe we are in good hands - but afterall, it's still run by the pythons from the south. Thanks but no thanks.
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Fresh from the oven by old folks in SIA,
Why did the poor chap want to resign?
The poor chap was attending the same church with Singapore Python. The interview was conducted outside their church in Singapore. During the interview, poor chap was told he would be guaranteed about 70 hrs a month, flying up to 85 hrs a month. He would be promoted to Captain in 1-2 years based on his experience.
Poor chap has 30 years experience as a Captain - retired from Singapore Air Force, and did a few years of Learjet as a commander, before joining GWA in Feb 2006, as a FO. He woud be able to bring his families to Shanghai for a new experience.
Halfway through his FO conversion, he was told that he would be offered a SO job instead, because he has no airline experience. What was he to do then, since he had already left his previous company. Singapore Python left him with SIA Cargo doing his conversion. Poor chap had the lowest priority in the queue as compared to other SIA cadets. Poor chap was basically doing 1 flight per month. The whole conversion took him 16 months. During the SO phase, he was paid SO salary instead of what was in his letter of offer as a FO. Even as a SO in SIA, he was supposed to get an increment once an SO checked out from his simulator. Singapore Python made sure that he did not get this bit of the increment. Poor Chap is eating bread and butter, as he has a family.
After 16 long months, he finally arrives in Shanghai. He is now offered a Chinese contract beyond his expectations. The promised 70 guaranteed hrs was removed from his contract. He was given Junior FO basic pay.
He refused to sign the contract. Singapore Python tells everybody that Poor Chap is a trouble maker. Singapore Python faithful followers also agree that Poor Chap is a trouble maker.
Meantime, Poor Chap was only flying 1 COP per month -- 22 hrs per month -- which meant much much lower pay. Finally, after many many rounds, Poor Chap did create enough attention. Singapore Python now give poor chap FO lowest basic pay. Poor Chap still refuses to sign the contract, because the 70 hrs guaranteed is not inside the Chinese contract.
So, after a few more rounds, Singapore Python and Junior Python counter-offer. They promise poor chap that they will plan him 3 COP per month, which will be about 70-75 hrs per month. ( by the way, 1 hr is paid 330 RMB --from www.gwairlines.com).
However, they will remove the clause 'guaranteed 6-8 days Home leave per month'. It's a deal....poor chap sign the Chinese contract.
Surprise came next. For the next few months, Poor Chap is still rostered 1 flight per month....about 22 hrs per month. It is worst now, because he does not have home leave in his roster. That means, according to Great Wall in-house regulations, poor chap is physically supposed to be in Shanghai when not working. Poor Chap now has no money and no home leave to visit his family in Singapore.
Of course, there is no point talking about the command upgrade which is illegal and banned by the CAA of China.
I suppose that is the trigger point.
AJ
Why did the poor chap want to resign?
The poor chap was attending the same church with Singapore Python. The interview was conducted outside their church in Singapore. During the interview, poor chap was told he would be guaranteed about 70 hrs a month, flying up to 85 hrs a month. He would be promoted to Captain in 1-2 years based on his experience.
Poor chap has 30 years experience as a Captain - retired from Singapore Air Force, and did a few years of Learjet as a commander, before joining GWA in Feb 2006, as a FO. He woud be able to bring his families to Shanghai for a new experience.
Halfway through his FO conversion, he was told that he would be offered a SO job instead, because he has no airline experience. What was he to do then, since he had already left his previous company. Singapore Python left him with SIA Cargo doing his conversion. Poor chap had the lowest priority in the queue as compared to other SIA cadets. Poor chap was basically doing 1 flight per month. The whole conversion took him 16 months. During the SO phase, he was paid SO salary instead of what was in his letter of offer as a FO. Even as a SO in SIA, he was supposed to get an increment once an SO checked out from his simulator. Singapore Python made sure that he did not get this bit of the increment. Poor Chap is eating bread and butter, as he has a family.
After 16 long months, he finally arrives in Shanghai. He is now offered a Chinese contract beyond his expectations. The promised 70 guaranteed hrs was removed from his contract. He was given Junior FO basic pay.
He refused to sign the contract. Singapore Python tells everybody that Poor Chap is a trouble maker. Singapore Python faithful followers also agree that Poor Chap is a trouble maker.
Meantime, Poor Chap was only flying 1 COP per month -- 22 hrs per month -- which meant much much lower pay. Finally, after many many rounds, Poor Chap did create enough attention. Singapore Python now give poor chap FO lowest basic pay. Poor Chap still refuses to sign the contract, because the 70 hrs guaranteed is not inside the Chinese contract.
So, after a few more rounds, Singapore Python and Junior Python counter-offer. They promise poor chap that they will plan him 3 COP per month, which will be about 70-75 hrs per month. ( by the way, 1 hr is paid 330 RMB --from www.gwairlines.com).
However, they will remove the clause 'guaranteed 6-8 days Home leave per month'. It's a deal....poor chap sign the Chinese contract.
Surprise came next. For the next few months, Poor Chap is still rostered 1 flight per month....about 22 hrs per month. It is worst now, because he does not have home leave in his roster. That means, according to Great Wall in-house regulations, poor chap is physically supposed to be in Shanghai when not working. Poor Chap now has no money and no home leave to visit his family in Singapore.
Of course, there is no point talking about the command upgrade which is illegal and banned by the CAA of China.
I suppose that is the trigger point.
AJ
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Getting the 1.9 million back from Poor Chap's next employer, was the decision of Singapore Python, although the president and Finance/HR mgr also sit in. Nevertheless, what is disappointing is that, the new SVP designate has already arrived in Shanghai this time. Nothing was done to salvage the situation.
Genghis
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The Singapore Python strikes on the last working day of the Poor Chap with Great Wall Airlines. Details is on page 1 of this thread.
He has no choice but to withdraw his resignation for the time being, else he would be jobless for a few months. The HK/shenzhen company is unable to take him, so he needs to look for some other jobs.
Last I know, he is on emergency leave.
Singapore Python has a lot to answer on judgment day.
Genghis
He has no choice but to withdraw his resignation for the time being, else he would be jobless for a few months. The HK/shenzhen company is unable to take him, so he needs to look for some other jobs.
Last I know, he is on emergency leave.
Singapore Python has a lot to answer on judgment day.
Genghis
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'Added to the fact the CP is a Malaysian lead us to believe we are in good hands - but afterall, it's still run by the pythons from the south. Thanks but no thanks.'
Mr Green
According to Genghis, Poor Chap and Singapore Python attend the same church. They are both loyal Singaporeans. Singapore Python's brother is also a minister in Singapore.
So where does that put you? CP is a Malaysian.....
No doubt Singapore Python is the main culprit, but wounds take a long time to heal......, sometimes it never heals....
Look at what happen to Jade Cargo.....after months of increasing pay and package... they are not able to salvage the airline....they now have to dry lease the 2 aircrafts to Jett8 in Singapore....
As what Gengis has said, go at your own risk.
AJ
Mr Green
According to Genghis, Poor Chap and Singapore Python attend the same church. They are both loyal Singaporeans. Singapore Python's brother is also a minister in Singapore.
So where does that put you? CP is a Malaysian.....
No doubt Singapore Python is the main culprit, but wounds take a long time to heal......, sometimes it never heals....
Look at what happen to Jade Cargo.....after months of increasing pay and package... they are not able to salvage the airline....they now have to dry lease the 2 aircrafts to Jett8 in Singapore....
As what Gengis has said, go at your own risk.
AJ
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well is good and thanks for all the "hear and say" regarding the recruiting airline and is more important if we can see the facts for ourselves.
however i was told by the singapore roxy mercure hotel reception staff that there will be a GWL pilots recruitment roadshow at its hotel ballroom on the 2nd and 4th of April from 0930hrs onwards.
guess i go have a look and hear what is the package 1st. nothing to lose
good luck all.
however i was told by the singapore roxy mercure hotel reception staff that there will be a GWL pilots recruitment roadshow at its hotel ballroom on the 2nd and 4th of April from 0930hrs onwards.
guess i go have a look and hear what is the package 1st. nothing to lose
good luck all.
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presentation went on well. most questions answered. flying to ams, man,
tsn, sin, icn, lax, sea etc. 4th aircraft joining the fleet.
captain basic S$8000-12000 f/o basic S$5000-7500, housingS$2800,
monthly home ticket S$900, kids education S$2000, hourly flt S$66 to
S$100 per hour up to 70 (forgot what is after 70), 5 years contract,
S$50,000 complete contract bonus, lost of license and medical insurance
by company and 6-8 days consecutive home leave per month. anyway
there will be one more session on the 4th April at 0930hrs at roxy mecure
hotel singapore level 3. good luck guys!
the above are for general info based on my quick note and stand to be
corrected.
p.s. hi "cossky", china tax mentioned was about 17 percent (not on flt pay)
tsn, sin, icn, lax, sea etc. 4th aircraft joining the fleet.
captain basic S$8000-12000 f/o basic S$5000-7500, housingS$2800,
monthly home ticket S$900, kids education S$2000, hourly flt S$66 to
S$100 per hour up to 70 (forgot what is after 70), 5 years contract,
S$50,000 complete contract bonus, lost of license and medical insurance
by company and 6-8 days consecutive home leave per month. anyway
there will be one more session on the 4th April at 0930hrs at roxy mecure
hotel singapore level 3. good luck guys!
the above are for general info based on my quick note and stand to be
corrected.
p.s. hi "cossky", china tax mentioned was about 17 percent (not on flt pay)