Air Asia's 'smooth' landings
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Funnily enough, I don't see it as a bad can of worms. Realise that it is impossible to train perfect, flawless pilots. Impossible.
What I am grateful for is the honest people that came out with this story even if it tarnishes the good reputation some MAS pilots have. But hey, reputation is just reputation. It is a perception. It's a general characteristic or trait ascribed to a person derived from another person or a community's opinion. People are not perfect and are emotional when assigning reputation.
One AK junior S/O did a hard landing in KUL and people's jumping and crying AK's unsafe and all that. No one commented anything here all this while when senior MH pilots did the same thing some time back? Why is that? Now that's a bit double standard coming from well-trained, well paid and well rested world class pilots.
What I am grateful for is the honest people that came out with this story even if it tarnishes the good reputation some MAS pilots have. But hey, reputation is just reputation. It is a perception. It's a general characteristic or trait ascribed to a person derived from another person or a community's opinion. People are not perfect and are emotional when assigning reputation.
One AK junior S/O did a hard landing in KUL and people's jumping and crying AK's unsafe and all that. No one commented anything here all this while when senior MH pilots did the same thing some time back? Why is that? Now that's a bit double standard coming from well-trained, well paid and well rested world class pilots.
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so lesen terbang... you mean you just so happen to be there...at that time...and it just so happened that you had an excellent "aircraft spotter" camera (nice photo quality by the way) and u just so happened to take them excellent pictures at that time?? i gotta hire u as a psychic.
like i said...no 737's operating out of KUL. that could have been a flight from KK to KL and it could have done a turn around and just took off and u just switch positions. come on lah. u just type out the timings and expect us to buy it? if the timings are printed on the photo then we have a case. so at the moment you got nada...
RTB is not a bad thing; I've done one myself. I took the photos because AK 737 is becoming a rare breed in KUL, get them now before they're all gone. MH 737, I've been photographing them for years si I don't really shoot them anymore.
Anyway my sources told me AAY did make the RTB due to hydraulic problem. Nothing to be ashamed of.
By the way,
we can work together, can't we?
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i've got no problems working together,lesen. i honestly believe that is what our 2 airlines should be doing and not getting at each others necks all the time. but then again,its hard not to when u got characters like wooble dooble in the picture who thinks he's a godsent pilot who has a sniper rifle constantly locked on to AK and our smallest mistakes.when u guys itself as u can see make mistakes,the only difference is we AK guys are too busy flying and have better things to do than pick fights. always remember that although we maybe paid like bus drivers and fly like bus drivers (what??? fly like bus drivers???
), we are flying the exact same aircraft like anyone else does and we do it as well. its just our general operations perspective thats slightly different. but we should be working together. i mean look at SIA and tiger or even Qantas and Jetstar
it will do us BOTH good. anyway our initial batch of A330 pilots had their line trg with u guys anyway. maybe its a step forward eh?
), we are flying the exact same aircraft like anyone else does and we do it as well. its just our general operations perspective thats slightly different. but we should be working together. i mean look at SIA and tiger or even Qantas and Jetstarit will do us BOTH good. anyway our initial batch of A330 pilots had their line trg with u guys anyway. maybe its a step forward eh?
Last edited by 420; 2nd Dec 2007 at 11:41.
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btw... u say yr sources tell u that the 737 rtb was due to a hydraulics prob? now... that case i DID hear about. but never the whole "flying gas can" and depressurization rubbish. and once again... it was NOT KUL-LGK!
stealthone...newbie... the next time yr ak friends tell u stuff... dont blindly believe them and come blabber off here like you're the most well informed pilot when you are actually a newbie trying to fit in ok? now you've got yr foot in yr mouth
thanks for the info lesen.
stealthone...newbie... the next time yr ak friends tell u stuff... dont blindly believe them and come blabber off here like you're the most well informed pilot when you are actually a newbie trying to fit in ok? now you've got yr foot in yr mouth
thanks for the info lesen.
Last edited by 420; 2nd Dec 2007 at 11:41.
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420
Your foot is permanently lodged in your mouth. So what if you did not hear about it? That does not mean that it did not happen. Unfortunately Lesen is not a psychic, otherwise we would be marvelling at the photos of a ‘flying gas tank’ as well. The serious incidents in Air Asia are hardly isolated, in fact they occur so often that one can write a book on what has been going on over the last few years.
There is nothing wrong with exposing the safety related issues in any company because people’s lives are at stake and the public deserves to know the truth. Some of Air Asia’s engineers and pilots keep photocopying certain documents to protect their a s in case someone gets killed. Luckily enough, the factual information found its way to certain authorities like European safety agency, Singapore authorities and so on. Nobody is out there to screw the ‘flying circus’, but to make it adhere to the safety standards. So what is the problem with the Singapore route? I thought the start date was suppose to be on the 1st of Dec, hmm.. maybe it is something to do with safety related issues after all. If the system can not be changed from within then the outside pressure should work.
BTW, I am wearing the ‘red colours’ as well
he he, however my head is not buried in the sand...
Your foot is permanently lodged in your mouth. So what if you did not hear about it? That does not mean that it did not happen. Unfortunately Lesen is not a psychic, otherwise we would be marvelling at the photos of a ‘flying gas tank’ as well.
The serious incidents in Air Asia are hardly isolated, in fact they occur so often that one can write a book on what has been going on over the last few years.There is nothing wrong with exposing the safety related issues in any company because people’s lives are at stake and the public deserves to know the truth. Some of Air Asia’s engineers and pilots keep photocopying certain documents to protect their a s in case someone gets killed. Luckily enough, the factual information found its way to certain authorities like European safety agency, Singapore authorities and so on. Nobody is out there to screw the ‘flying circus’, but to make it adhere to the safety standards. So what is the problem with the Singapore route? I thought the start date was suppose to be on the 1st of Dec, hmm.. maybe it is something to do with safety related issues after all. If the system can not be changed from within then the outside pressure should work.
BTW, I am wearing the ‘red colours’ as well
he he, however my head is not buried in the sand...
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Hi all,
First of all i am sure not everyone that participated in this forum are flying crew. Hence having no idea about what's soft/ hard landings are. Landing an airplane is not the same like you park your car in your porch everyday. FYI, parking your car in your porch will not be affected by weather phenomenon, but landing an airplane is. Never judge by what your hear, but with what you know. I have seen many cases with fullfare/ national airlines doing hard landings, bounce on landing, long float, even on the wide body aircraft! What's wrong with them? The answer is no. They all know what they were doing, how to react to such conditions. They are all professional pilots flying multi million dollar machines.
Never criticize others, even you do it better.
First of all i am sure not everyone that participated in this forum are flying crew. Hence having no idea about what's soft/ hard landings are. Landing an airplane is not the same like you park your car in your porch everyday. FYI, parking your car in your porch will not be affected by weather phenomenon, but landing an airplane is. Never judge by what your hear, but with what you know. I have seen many cases with fullfare/ national airlines doing hard landings, bounce on landing, long float, even on the wide body aircraft! What's wrong with them? The answer is no. They all know what they were doing, how to react to such conditions. They are all professional pilots flying multi million dollar machines.
Never criticize others, even you do it better.
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Jeepers Creepers namco & 420...........Are you guys going to make out and kiss now.........................
Perhaps you can start the mutual admiration society of aa, put on your uniforms and hang out in Nilai toghether.........Or perhaps you already are...
Perhaps you can start the mutual admiration society of aa, put on your uniforms and hang out in Nilai toghether.........Or perhaps you already are...
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tsk tsk wooble,how many times do you have to get suspended to know better.
anyway,i have no idea who namco is and am merely agreeing to his statement on landings because its true. we all know your'e not a newbie to this business so you should know it too.'
mistakes happen in every airline,like it or not. you guys are just lucky you dont have insiders like the newbie to blow it out of proportion all the time. and we are too busy flying to care about yr mistakes.maybe you guys just have too much free time. and with MAS downsizing their 747 fleet and all the reverse seniority going on between the 737 and 330 guys, no wonder you guys are so moody all the time.
anyway,i have no idea who namco is and am merely agreeing to his statement on landings because its true. we all know your'e not a newbie to this business so you should know it too.'
mistakes happen in every airline,like it or not. you guys are just lucky you dont have insiders like the newbie to blow it out of proportion all the time. and we are too busy flying to care about yr mistakes.maybe you guys just have too much free time. and with MAS downsizing their 747 fleet and all the reverse seniority going on between the 737 and 330 guys, no wonder you guys are so moody all the time.
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.......the MAS 777 " aces " did plough OZ brand new tins onto the tarmac.
FYI the flight in question was a F/O training flight. That happened in BKK. Granted it was a hard landing, but that happens quite often when you have a person under training.
OZ made a big deal about it cos they are expected to do a "smooth" landing every time. F/O are rarely allowed to land the aircraft for that very reason and if a landing is given to him, he will give you back the control at the first sign of problem.
His mistake was he didn't know you are not suppose to allow F/O land the aircraft during training as its is regularly done in MAS
FYI the flight in question was a F/O training flight. That happened in BKK. Granted it was a hard landing, but that happens quite often when you have a person under training.
OZ made a big deal about it cos they are expected to do a "smooth" landing every time. F/O are rarely allowed to land the aircraft for that very reason and if a landing is given to him, he will give you back the control at the first sign of problem.
His mistake was he didn't know you are not suppose to allow F/O land the aircraft during training as its is regularly done in MAS
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for perspective and context
about a month ago a trainee captain on kul-kbr for "5-star airline at LCC cost" national carrier B737 did such a "smooth" landing that one pax rushed to the cockpit to thank the captain only to be stopped by the cabin crew. he was very insistent. thanks to the cabin crew the tech crew were not thanked by the pax. maybe wooblah can tell us the inside story since he is with the training and checking department. And it is rumored that the aircraft continued back to base without a heavy landing check. Captain wooblah being an insider probably can enlighten us.
Last edited by reawold; 20th Dec 2007 at 09:27. Reason: to clarify the latest slogan
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mike,
im not sure on this but you mean what do you mean by "in MAS fo's under training do not do landings"?? or am i reading it wrong? it should be part of the training.
by the way the so called 3.5G landing we're talking about was also a trg flight and the capt couldnt react in time as well. like u said,things like this happen on trg flights.
Rear world,
sorry buddy but there was no recorded "hard landing" at such a sector. and by the way,if you're a pilot,you should know better....
1.how can you base a good/bad landing by pax reaction??? all they wanna feel is smooth soft landings but we all know that aint always possible. the minute there's a slightly harder "thud" than usual,some passengers
thats it.
2. HAVE YOU BEEN TO KBR?? if u wanna try landing on egg shells at that airport do gimme a call cos we're in for hell of a show. you float or misjudge yr flare for one second and yr nuts fly up yr throat.
im not sure on this but you mean what do you mean by "in MAS fo's under training do not do landings"?? or am i reading it wrong? it should be part of the training.
by the way the so called 3.5G landing we're talking about was also a trg flight and the capt couldnt react in time as well. like u said,things like this happen on trg flights.
Rear world,
sorry buddy but there was no recorded "hard landing" at such a sector. and by the way,if you're a pilot,you should know better....
1.how can you base a good/bad landing by pax reaction??? all they wanna feel is smooth soft landings but we all know that aint always possible. the minute there's a slightly harder "thud" than usual,some passengers
thats it.2. HAVE YOU BEEN TO KBR?? if u wanna try landing on egg shells at that airport do gimme a call cos we're in for hell of a show. you float or misjudge yr flare for one second and yr nuts fly up yr throat.
One of the hardest things in any level of Flight Instructing is knowing when to Take over the controls. All Instructors can make a judgement error, those who know me know my background. People like Longlatif and Wooblah do not but there S**t stinks like everyone elses, but they are too amazing to admit it.
Regards,
. Regards,
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cheers mate. it may seem easy and straight forward to the outside eye... (isn't it always?), but at that split second,anything can go wrong and time is a factor...like it or not
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Hey there my little sisters,
I can stir you up and have my say and yes I have only been suspended once from PPrune. I can take it like a man and sticks and stones can break my bones but hey words can never hurt me.
On a serious note though, with regard to training. Let me say this. It is ok to let the trainee fly outside of his envelope but it is criminal to allow the trainee to fly out of your envelope. During revenue line training the trainer must be extra careful and vigilant. Demonstrating techniques that demand corrections that exceed basic passenger comfort should be only demonstrated and flown in simulators. In reality the two areas where things go wrong quickly is from brakes released to the second segment and at the FAF to a safe taxi speed. What a trainer is looking for overall is the ability to adhere to procedures and SOP. Not Biggles type flying skills. The idea is to train by observation and then introduce the hands on aspect at a rate commensurate to the trainees learning curve. Always take over early even if it seems premature to the trainee. Always fly the sector if the WX is a bit dodgey. This is very evident in heavy jets. Perhaps the worst case situation in a 4 ENG jet is an outboard ENG failure low speed / light weight on a slippery runway at TKOF. Especially if the FO training is doing to TKOF and the failure occurs at the thrust lever handover point.
With regard to my flying skills and the odour of my $h*t. I can tell you that there isn't any thing I haven't F**ked up at least twice in my career.
So on this note, Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year & Safe flying to all.
Wooblah.
I can stir you up and have my say and yes I have only been suspended once from PPrune. I can take it like a man and sticks and stones can break my bones but hey words can never hurt me.
On a serious note though, with regard to training. Let me say this. It is ok to let the trainee fly outside of his envelope but it is criminal to allow the trainee to fly out of your envelope. During revenue line training the trainer must be extra careful and vigilant. Demonstrating techniques that demand corrections that exceed basic passenger comfort should be only demonstrated and flown in simulators. In reality the two areas where things go wrong quickly is from brakes released to the second segment and at the FAF to a safe taxi speed. What a trainer is looking for overall is the ability to adhere to procedures and SOP. Not Biggles type flying skills. The idea is to train by observation and then introduce the hands on aspect at a rate commensurate to the trainees learning curve. Always take over early even if it seems premature to the trainee. Always fly the sector if the WX is a bit dodgey. This is very evident in heavy jets. Perhaps the worst case situation in a 4 ENG jet is an outboard ENG failure low speed / light weight on a slippery runway at TKOF. Especially if the FO training is doing to TKOF and the failure occurs at the thrust lever handover point.
With regard to my flying skills and the odour of my $h*t. I can tell you that there isn't any thing I haven't F**ked up at least twice in my career.
So on this note, Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year & Safe flying to all.
Wooblah.
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With regard to my flying skills and the odour of my $h*t. I can tell you that there isn't any thing I haven't F**ked up at least twice in my career.
selamat hari raya,merry christmas,and a happy 2008 to all. May you all be blessed with good weather, lesser aircraft defects, and wings that stay attached.
happy landings
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F/O's fault with hard & heavy landings?
Hi Mike rudder..........
Woobie got it right, in revenue flight the skipper should never ever let the F/O or aircraft run away from your safe envelope. Even if it's a line training flight, the TRI/TRE should be ever vigilant and never let the landing " dig " beyond limits.
Woobie got it right, in revenue flight the skipper should never ever let the F/O or aircraft run away from your safe envelope. Even if it's a line training flight, the TRI/TRE should be ever vigilant and never let the landing " dig " beyond limits.
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I really dont mean to stir the pot but just want to talk about the facts.
This hard landing may have been a training flight but I was informed that there was no 'taking over' to be done as the hard landing was done by the Captain himself as it was his sector. And the guy being the Fleet Captain too! Also that the news was after all the assesment or whatever, Airbus said is was a couple of million ringgit or dollars to fix. Rumour from finance department.
Hey, we may laugh but it could happen to anyone, even me (hopefully a crap day like that never happens) But what gets me annoyed is that this Capt still remains flying and still remains in position after said incident. Was there an internal investigation even? I have seen guys suspended after an incident pending investigation and even guys demoted for far less! And this is in Air Asia. I dont like double standards and if it happened to a regular Capt or an F/O he would really get screwed. This of course should not happen.
Any facts guys? Are my rumours all wrong?
This hard landing may have been a training flight but I was informed that there was no 'taking over' to be done as the hard landing was done by the Captain himself as it was his sector. And the guy being the Fleet Captain too! Also that the news was after all the assesment or whatever, Airbus said is was a couple of million ringgit or dollars to fix. Rumour from finance department.
Hey, we may laugh but it could happen to anyone, even me (hopefully a crap day like that never happens) But what gets me annoyed is that this Capt still remains flying and still remains in position after said incident. Was there an internal investigation even? I have seen guys suspended after an incident pending investigation and even guys demoted for far less! And this is in Air Asia. I dont like double standards and if it happened to a regular Capt or an F/O he would really get screwed. This of course should not happen.
Any facts guys? Are my rumours all wrong?