Vietnam Airlines (info please)
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Guys; I deleted my last post as I was posting in a rumor only; but it seems it was not so much a rumor after all.
Some of my latin american coleagues confirmed to me and I was shown pictures of the Runway Excursion in Hanoi; it was a complete excursion of the right main wheel; the Da Nang excursion did apparently break a few runway lights after it was affected by a 27kt gust left crosswind (reported wind by TWR was wind veing variable with 3!), but returned to the center of the runway without leaving the paved surface; it still requires to be mentioned that it IS and foremost will always be a Captains responsability to decide who is in what function during a critical phase and what to do when things do not go as planned. The Expat Pilot is at fault for that oversight, NO matter the experience level of the First Officer. What I was explained by colleagues is that he IS accepting full responsability, something I admire of him! (Yes, perhaps a local pilot would not, but perhaps he would, we do not know...)
The Hanoi incident crew was reported to have been a local, to say full Vietnamese crew, and the aircraft's right main wheel completely left the paved surface. I was not told if the aircraft returned to the runway, if it taxied to the gate or stayed where it was. And its not important now...
The part that is of importance is that colleagues of us, be it Expats or Locals, made dificult yet wrong decisions, and I belive its easy to blame and point fingers when he/she was not or has never been in that situation, but yes, it would be nice to see "constructive corrective actions" instead of a correction that is typical of the punitive culture that everyone hates so much, be it local or foreign.
What happened last week is bad; not for the Expats, not for the locals, but for ANY pilot professionally operating in Vietnam!
Some of my latin american coleagues confirmed to me and I was shown pictures of the Runway Excursion in Hanoi; it was a complete excursion of the right main wheel; the Da Nang excursion did apparently break a few runway lights after it was affected by a 27kt gust left crosswind (reported wind by TWR was wind veing variable with 3!), but returned to the center of the runway without leaving the paved surface; it still requires to be mentioned that it IS and foremost will always be a Captains responsability to decide who is in what function during a critical phase and what to do when things do not go as planned. The Expat Pilot is at fault for that oversight, NO matter the experience level of the First Officer. What I was explained by colleagues is that he IS accepting full responsability, something I admire of him! (Yes, perhaps a local pilot would not, but perhaps he would, we do not know...)
The Hanoi incident crew was reported to have been a local, to say full Vietnamese crew, and the aircraft's right main wheel completely left the paved surface. I was not told if the aircraft returned to the runway, if it taxied to the gate or stayed where it was. And its not important now...
The part that is of importance is that colleagues of us, be it Expats or Locals, made dificult yet wrong decisions, and I belive its easy to blame and point fingers when he/she was not or has never been in that situation, but yes, it would be nice to see "constructive corrective actions" instead of a correction that is typical of the punitive culture that everyone hates so much, be it local or foreign.
What happened last week is bad; not for the Expats, not for the locals, but for ANY pilot professionally operating in Vietnam!
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If it makes you happy...
Sure; but since not everyone of us thinks of themselfs being Captain America himself and belive this could happen to me, too, a little compassion and constructive critizism should be in place. You might be in one of these situations yourself one day and react wrong. We are all too human...
But here a thought: ever spent a minute or two thinking about WHY local pilots are the way they are? Or why there is a general Anti-Expat consensus among them?
Question to you, me guessing you being an Expat like me: would a Vietnamese pilot be allowed to work in YOUR country? Not in mine, and it has nothing to do with their skill level but where the pilot was born...
I politely would like you think a little, you, like me, are a guest worker here taking advantage of a need that the country themselves can not cover as we are not happy working in our own country. We have no right to claim anything...
But here a thought: ever spent a minute or two thinking about WHY local pilots are the way they are? Or why there is a general Anti-Expat consensus among them?
Question to you, me guessing you being an Expat like me: would a Vietnamese pilot be allowed to work in YOUR country? Not in mine, and it has nothing to do with their skill level but where the pilot was born...
I politely would like you think a little, you, like me, are a guest worker here taking advantage of a need that the country themselves can not cover as we are not happy working in our own country. We have no right to claim anything...
Last edited by EagleA25; 26th Jul 2017 at 05:34. Reason: Grammar
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Sure; but since not everyone of us thinks of themselfs being Captain America himself and belive this could happen to me, too, a little compassion and constructive critizism should be in place. You might be in one of these situations yourself one day and react wrong. We are all too human...
But here a thought: ever spent a minute or two thinking about WHY local pilots are the way they are? Or why there is a general Anti-Expat consensus among them?
Question to you, me guessing you being an Expat like me: would a Vietnamese pilot be allowed to work in YOUR country? Not in mine, and it has nothing to do with their skill level but where the pilot was born...
I politely would like you think a little, you, like me, are a guest worker here taking advantage of a need that the country themselves can not cover as we are not happy working in our own country. We have no right to claim anything...
But here a thought: ever spent a minute or two thinking about WHY local pilots are the way they are? Or why there is a general Anti-Expat consensus among them?
Question to you, me guessing you being an Expat like me: would a Vietnamese pilot be allowed to work in YOUR country? Not in mine, and it has nothing to do with their skill level but where the pilot was born...
I politely would like you think a little, you, like me, are a guest worker here taking advantage of a need that the country themselves can not cover as we are not happy working in our own country. We have no right to claim anything...
.I do agree with the previous statements that unless they really bend metal (and they are on the best way to do it) no one will ever care to ask WHY things are the way they are.
The ever lower getting standards by some (not all) locals, but also Expats with very questionable background and performance will keep hurting the safety record of this airline.
Management has no urge to ask WHY. It's always easier to blame the pilots for not following SOPs than impose a real change. Change away from punitive culture to SMS (I am sure VNA management does not even know what SMS is ... they were too busy chasing the 4th star from Skytrax ... a private company only frequent travelers know about; the majority of traveling public does not, nor do they care). Change will also mean admitting that the way things are going is not the right way, since "loss of face" comes in. Keep having the idiotic "safety debriefs", publicly humiliate pilots; and management is off the hook.
This company has more problems than they realize and deserves tons of criticism. But personally insulting locals, calling them names, using prejudist and racist slurs like a few on this board is discrediting to the ones who are posting them.
Stay safe guys !
Last edited by wingdeagle; 30th Jul 2017 at 22:29.
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Hi
Sorry if my email are not appropriate.
I'm just graduated from flight school, and hold ICAO CPL/IR/ME License. Now I'm looking for Line Training Program and job opportunity after that.
I found an advertising about Vietjet Line Training program few days ago. Is there any guy who had experience with LT program?
Sorry if my email are not appropriate.
I'm just graduated from flight school, and hold ICAO CPL/IR/ME License. Now I'm looking for Line Training Program and job opportunity after that.
I found an advertising about Vietjet Line Training program few days ago. Is there any guy who had experience with LT program?
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Hi
Sorry if my email are not appropriate.
I'm just graduated from flight school, and hold ICAO CPL/IR/ME License. Now I'm looking for Line Training Program and job opportunity after that.
I found an advertising about Vietjet Line Training program few days ago. Is there any guy who had experience with LT program?
Sorry if my email are not appropriate.
I'm just graduated from flight school, and hold ICAO CPL/IR/ME License. Now I'm looking for Line Training Program and job opportunity after that.
I found an advertising about Vietjet Line Training program few days ago. Is there any guy who had experience with LT program?
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I could have not said it better, Eagle .
I do agree with the previous statements that unless they really bend metal (and they are on the best way to do it) no one will ever care to ask WHY things are the way they are.
The ever lower getting standards by some (not all) locals, but also Expats with very questionable background and performance will keep hurting the safety record of this airline.
Management has no urge to ask WHY. It's always easier to blame the pilots for not following SOPs "strictly" than imposing a real change. Change away from punitive culture to SMS (I am sure VNA management does not even know what SMS is ... they were too busy chasing the 4th star from Skytrax ... a private company only frequent travelers know about; the majority of traveling public does not, nor do they care). Change will also mean admitting that the way things are going is not the right way, since "loss of face" comes in. Keep having the idiotic "safety debriefs", publicly humiliate pilots; and management is off the hook.
This company has more problems than they realize and deserves tons of criticism. But personally insulting locals, calling them names, using prejudist and racist slurs like a few on this board is discrediting to the ones who are posting them.
Stay safe guys !
.I do agree with the previous statements that unless they really bend metal (and they are on the best way to do it) no one will ever care to ask WHY things are the way they are.
The ever lower getting standards by some (not all) locals, but also Expats with very questionable background and performance will keep hurting the safety record of this airline.
Management has no urge to ask WHY. It's always easier to blame the pilots for not following SOPs "strictly" than imposing a real change. Change away from punitive culture to SMS (I am sure VNA management does not even know what SMS is ... they were too busy chasing the 4th star from Skytrax ... a private company only frequent travelers know about; the majority of traveling public does not, nor do they care). Change will also mean admitting that the way things are going is not the right way, since "loss of face" comes in. Keep having the idiotic "safety debriefs", publicly humiliate pilots; and management is off the hook.
This company has more problems than they realize and deserves tons of criticism. But personally insulting locals, calling them names, using prejudist and racist slurs like a few on this board is discrediting to the ones who are posting them.
Stay safe guys !
I rest my case ! No point to argue with a bunch of sucklips like you !
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What is it true :any time some goes seriously wrong, about once a week, it is a viet pilot as PF.
They want to get ride of the expats, ok. But after do not cry if you are forbidden to overfly China or flying to Australia. Not to talk about be blacklisted in Europe.
These guys are more interested in smuggling goods from any foreign countries , than to fly correctly the aircrafts.
One guy said , no viet will be allowed to fly in my country, it is true, but to be honest, I thing they should not fly in Vietnam either.
What I can say is, on my country, they will not be treated the way they have treated the poor guys they fired , with no reason !
They want to get ride of the expats, ok. But after do not cry if you are forbidden to overfly China or flying to Australia. Not to talk about be blacklisted in Europe.
These guys are more interested in smuggling goods from any foreign countries , than to fly correctly the aircrafts.
One guy said , no viet will be allowed to fly in my country, it is true, but to be honest, I thing they should not fly in Vietnam either.
What I can say is, on my country, they will not be treated the way they have treated the poor guys they fired , with no reason !
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What is it true :any time some goes seriously wrong, about once a week, it is a viet pilot as PF.
They want to get ride of the expats, ok. But after do not cry if you are forbidden to overfly China or flying to Australia. Not to talk about be blacklisted in Europe.
These guys are more interested in smuggling goods from any foreign countries , than to fly correctly the aircrafts.
One guy said , no viet will be allowed to fly in my country, it is true, but to be honest, I thing they should not fly in Vietnam either.
What I can say is, on my country, they will not be treated the way they have treated the poor guys they fired , with no reason !
They want to get ride of the expats, ok. But after do not cry if you are forbidden to overfly China or flying to Australia. Not to talk about be blacklisted in Europe.
These guys are more interested in smuggling goods from any foreign countries , than to fly correctly the aircrafts.
One guy said , no viet will be allowed to fly in my country, it is true, but to be honest, I thing they should not fly in Vietnam either.
What I can say is, on my country, they will not be treated the way they have treated the poor guys they fired , with no reason !
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Stay away
I agree that we shouldn't fault the respect to these people, but at least, try to advise to all other colleagues who are thinking to join this company, that is is not a safe place to fly anymore. VNA is not like the company was 10 years ago. They are getting rid of all expat pilots, and is just a matter of time that all of them will be fired. I couldn't ask to any of my friends to come here, because i don't know when they will receive the 60 days notice, and doesn't matter what the agencies are saying or promising, is a fact, they want to fire all expat pilots at least the can do it. Now they need to cover the huge hole they have because many guys could see the situation, and they left. So who want to join a comoany where all expat pilots are leaving of being fired? That's the point. If they fly better or worst, if the management is corrupt and they care only about how much money they could take from ur pockets, is their problem. Better stay away of VNA, because when they don't beed u, u will be fired with 60 days notice, even if u signed a contract for 10000 years. Good luck guys, and choose well.
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Indeed, although hiring has been announced I wouldn't recommend any of my friends or colleagues to apply, as there is no guarantee that the five year contact will be respected. Remember that if a pilot does not complete his term, he is subject to a penalty, however this does not apply to the agency or company, as they can terminate it whenever they feel necessary (without any consequences). Truth is we do not have any certainty of when the massive expat cleaning will begin. The only thing that might help is the fact that all of the PF in the last four serious events, were local.
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Anywhere...,
Indeed, although hiring has been announced I wouldn't recommend any of my friends or colleagues to apply, as there is no guarantee that the five year contact will be respected. Remember that if a pilot does not complete his term, he is subject to a penalty, however this does not apply to the agency or company, as they can terminate it whenever they feel necessary (without any consequences). Truth is we do not have any certainty of when the massive expat cleaning will begin. The only thing that might help is the fact that all of the PF in the last four serious events, were local.
The fire/hire at companies discretion is anywhere you go around the world; it depends on the economy at the moment; if you are being laid off for economical reasons, the process has different names: in S America its called "efficiency", Europeans call it "Streamlining", the US it became famouse as "furlough"; any company does it; VNA is NO exception!
You might want to wake up to how things work in NON-unionized companies... you are older than 18 years of age, I assume? No one MADE you sign on, you signed the contract on free will WITH the clause that says "at company discretion"...
May I ask why you did not make it into a unionized company in your home country? Ahhh... yes, you see?
I can not say I am not one of the many who were disapointed, but accumulating anger, as Kimono, is not healthy, not for anyone!
If VNA continues on its present track, yes, they WILL have a major accident sometime soon! But as long as YOU keep your cockpit organized and take good decisions, this will NOT affect you! Just Be a professional and have some self respect!
Blue skies!
PS anyone internally applying for the A350 here?
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Eagle:
Of course I'm aware that we do not have a union and that as expats, our job is always on the line, I refer to the "Vietnamisation" of VNA, where in a few years from now, their plan is to have a 100% local pilot base. Few of the aviators currently flying here have been a part of the company for more than eight years, which I highly doubt any of us will achieve, due to the mentioned fact. On my experience, as long as you follow SOPs and do not have a major incident, you will be out of trouble. Chinese/ME companies are much more strict than VNA and I do appreciate the fact of working on a more "relaxed" atmosphere. I am not speaking against VNA or there future plans for us, that is the way it is and I fully take responsibility of my decision of joining here. But I also know that the clock is ticking and I wouldn't recommend to join now, because I highly doubt that they will need us in five years from now.
About becoming and expat, well, I would very probably still be flying in my unionized legacy airline at home if it hadn't gone bankrupt.
Of course I'm aware that we do not have a union and that as expats, our job is always on the line, I refer to the "Vietnamisation" of VNA, where in a few years from now, their plan is to have a 100% local pilot base. Few of the aviators currently flying here have been a part of the company for more than eight years, which I highly doubt any of us will achieve, due to the mentioned fact. On my experience, as long as you follow SOPs and do not have a major incident, you will be out of trouble. Chinese/ME companies are much more strict than VNA and I do appreciate the fact of working on a more "relaxed" atmosphere. I am not speaking against VNA or there future plans for us, that is the way it is and I fully take responsibility of my decision of joining here. But I also know that the clock is ticking and I wouldn't recommend to join now, because I highly doubt that they will need us in five years from now.
About becoming and expat, well, I would very probably still be flying in my unionized legacy airline at home if it hadn't gone bankrupt.
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Regarding the 350, who wouldn't want to fly long sectors to Japan, Korea, Europe, Australia, etc instead of sorting the bad wx in Vietnam everyday? The truth is I do believe the same scenario will repeat again, when the expat FOs went for their upgrade "interview". Management will open the door, but Fleet Office will be in charge of standing you in the wall in front of a firing squad. I really hope it's not the case, but I highly doubt a big number of pilots will actually pass the screening. Nevertheless we've got nothing to loose, do we?
Safe flights! ;-)
Safe flights! ;-)
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Latest rumor...
Hey everyone, to be honest, the A350 offer came to me as a complete surprise, just as it did to many of my Expat AND local colleagues; aditionally, my Broker actually made a very fair and reasonable upgrade offer for everyone interested.
Rumors are surging that , after hearing for months over months that the A350 fleet was supposed to remain a "pride for Vietnamese Pilots only" fleet, that there is a more profound reason why it is now becoming "Expat-Friendly". It is said that another crew, last month, pure Vietnamese, fell asleep again on the way to CDG and was rudely awakened after 45 mins without any contact... so, to sum it up, it seems that it has become an ethical and work moral problem which management wishes to resolve by letting Expats on the A350... who would have thought, some of us might actually have a real shot at the wide-body upgrade...
Rumors are surging that , after hearing for months over months that the A350 fleet was supposed to remain a "pride for Vietnamese Pilots only" fleet, that there is a more profound reason why it is now becoming "Expat-Friendly". It is said that another crew, last month, pure Vietnamese, fell asleep again on the way to CDG and was rudely awakened after 45 mins without any contact... so, to sum it up, it seems that it has become an ethical and work moral problem which management wishes to resolve by letting Expats on the A350... who would have thought, some of us might actually have a real shot at the wide-body upgrade...
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Since everyone here knows about the Hanoi runway excursion, I'd like to widen the perspective a little and dedicated tgos post to Vietnam Airline's Shaming Tradition/Policy and make the following known:
the Turd's who used his family influence and illegally manipulated crew rostering to go for a quick spin in the A321 with one of his high school buddies junior FO.
Here a quick resume:
Turd goes off-roading in Noi Bai during a thunderstorm overhead after his junior FO not just asked but demanded a Go-Around THREE TIMES is the BEST example of what Vietnam's Aviation Youth has to offer!
After coming back to the runway, he taxies back to the gate, parks his plane, pretends nothing even happened, then even tries to bribe the mechanics on the spot. But since pictures were already taken, technicians, well aware of their dilemma, did not want to stick their heads for this ignoramus into a noose and declined (good for them!)
Even though this event showed the level of immaturity of this super-star, his complete lack of Aeronautical Decision Making and the process involved, no ethical remorse what so ever for the safety of his clients but only for his own image and career, an unimaginable level of incompetence and disrespect for Crew Resource Management administration as a Commander, he is currently receiving "remedial training" with some of the most mediocre A321 instructors of the company who are just ****ting their pants to put any constructive criticism into the training file about this asshat as they all know it will cost them their job! This guy has DANGEROUS written all over him, but since he's the son of... well, you all get the picture! Now, lets compare this with the Expat Pilot in Da Nang who took complete responsibility for the actions of his Vietnamese first officer; well, the Safety Management System is Top-Notch in Vietnam Airlines!
Guys, please, the underlying message here for interested pilots is: DO NOT come to Vietnam Airlines if you value your careers! Every month since January VNA received an unprecedented amount of resignations as the problems are getting more and more evident. There are SO many better Air Carriers out there offering not just more money, better benefits but at a WAY lower risk to your health! It will NOT end well! Here you will be part of an airline that prefers to "safe face" than to adequately address safety issues! The way this is done is extremely mediocre and reactive in every way!
#VietnamAirlines #IATA #AviationSafety #SkyTeam
the Turd's who used his family influence and illegally manipulated crew rostering to go for a quick spin in the A321 with one of his high school buddies junior FO.
Here a quick resume:
Turd goes off-roading in Noi Bai during a thunderstorm overhead after his junior FO not just asked but demanded a Go-Around THREE TIMES is the BEST example of what Vietnam's Aviation Youth has to offer!
After coming back to the runway, he taxies back to the gate, parks his plane, pretends nothing even happened, then even tries to bribe the mechanics on the spot. But since pictures were already taken, technicians, well aware of their dilemma, did not want to stick their heads for this ignoramus into a noose and declined (good for them!)
Even though this event showed the level of immaturity of this super-star, his complete lack of Aeronautical Decision Making and the process involved, no ethical remorse what so ever for the safety of his clients but only for his own image and career, an unimaginable level of incompetence and disrespect for Crew Resource Management administration as a Commander, he is currently receiving "remedial training" with some of the most mediocre A321 instructors of the company who are just ****ting their pants to put any constructive criticism into the training file about this asshat as they all know it will cost them their job! This guy has DANGEROUS written all over him, but since he's the son of... well, you all get the picture! Now, lets compare this with the Expat Pilot in Da Nang who took complete responsibility for the actions of his Vietnamese first officer; well, the Safety Management System is Top-Notch in Vietnam Airlines!
Guys, please, the underlying message here for interested pilots is: DO NOT come to Vietnam Airlines if you value your careers! Every month since January VNA received an unprecedented amount of resignations as the problems are getting more and more evident. There are SO many better Air Carriers out there offering not just more money, better benefits but at a WAY lower risk to your health! It will NOT end well! Here you will be part of an airline that prefers to "safe face" than to adequately address safety issues! The way this is done is extremely mediocre and reactive in every way!
#VietnamAirlines #IATA #AviationSafety #SkyTeam
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Hey everyone, to be honest, the A350 offer came to me as a complete surprise, just as it did to many of my Expat AND local colleagues; aditionally, my Broker actually made a very fair and reasonable upgrade offer for everyone interested.
Rumors are surging that , after hearing for months over months that the A350 fleet was supposed to remain a "pride for Vietnamese Pilots only" fleet, that there is a more profound reason why it is now becoming "Expat-Friendly". It is said that another crew, last month, pure Vietnamese, fell asleep again on the way to CDG and was rudely awakened after 45 mins without any contact... so, to sum it up, it seems that it has become an ethical and work moral problem which management wishes to resolve by letting Expats on the A350... who would have thought, some of us might actually have a real shot at the wide-body upgrade...
Rumors are surging that , after hearing for months over months that the A350 fleet was supposed to remain a "pride for Vietnamese Pilots only" fleet, that there is a more profound reason why it is now becoming "Expat-Friendly". It is said that another crew, last month, pure Vietnamese, fell asleep again on the way to CDG and was rudely awakened after 45 mins without any contact... so, to sum it up, it seems that it has become an ethical and work moral problem which management wishes to resolve by letting Expats on the A350... who would have thought, some of us might actually have a real shot at the wide-body upgrade...
I just couldn't bring myself to do it. Paying my employer money, so i can earn less money.
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Personal preference of lifestyle, I guess; also, money is not everything, some of us have been flying the mini-bus for a while; I'm looking forward to a change of pace if the opportunity arised...
have a great weekend everyone!