Vietnam Airlines (info please)
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The captain is responsible at all times.
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Four serious incidents in less than one year (and more that we do not know about ?) can hardly be blamed on not simply following SOP, even though for sure some SOP breach was present at every incident. How about judgement ? Does your SOP have an answer for every unpredictable situation we as professional pilots are trained to deal with ?
It's easy to get on the "follow SOP" blame game, but I think it's time for your company and senior instructors like yourself to stand up and demand a "root cause" study.
Was lack of proper training leading to incidents, lack of proper judgment, lack of support (CRM ?) fatigue, stress or other human factors. A man with your experience knows for sure than one factor does not lead to an incident or accident. The scenarios usually build up by several factors amounting to one bad result.
Just my two cents.
Last edited by wingdeagle; 2nd May 2018 at 23:26.
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Laughing...
I know everyone has heard this saying: “the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, but expecting different results!” Therefore:
Step 1: blame the recently arrived Expat; he is expendable:
Step 2: set up an elaborate blame and shame show, so that the locals have something to jack off to
Step 3: pretend that management sees everything, do so by running around the airport pretending to know what they are doing.
Step 4: make sure the public, and especially the Red Party, knows, it was a foreigner, since Vietnamese don’t do this!
Step 5: hire a replacement pilot from a country that desperately needs a job, is disposable, and will be submissive and make no problems if fired.
If I was the US Pilot, I’d be in touch with my embassy and the FAA; I’d make a full report, requiere an audit and SUE Vietnam Airlines for public endangerment and wrongful work termination!
Will it stick? Probably not, but it will put a HUGE dent into VNA’s plans to operate to the States... and in my opinion, they shouldn’t; not even to Europe!
Last edited by VietJetPilot; 2nd May 2018 at 22:00.
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If I’m not mistaken, what Wingedeagle is trying to say is that people are not machines; and as many of us have exclaimed, there is NO checks and balances in Vietnam Airlines.
Fact is, someone let both FO and Captain our into this wide-wide world. Someone did not do the job to evaluate the skipper nor the FO. Someone dispatched the flight without making sure the crew knew what was going on (yeah, I sign papers all day, too, but important things should be highlitghted, or not?) and that person is off the hook; someone trained the lad, and is off the hook; someone released the Second in Command, and both are off the hook!
But the worst is this: There is a general “I really, really don’t give a ****” ambience we are working in! I mean, everyone hangs around the place thinking “if it imploded tomorrow, who cares?”; and it stinks because guys like me, who try their best to be as professional as possible, feel that we all have let the lad down... but I guess, that’s just me, right?
Well, I think with the backing of the FAA and a really good lawyer, yeah, I actually think he could get a good settlement... it happens like this in life sometimes...! Squeeze them Lemonades...
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Holy **** you guys
The captain IS responsible
Yes of course we are all only human, and there are factors i.e. he's new to the company and I believe hadn't flown the RNAV20 approach before.
Isn't that the biggest reason of all to be very cautious and make a full briefing, keep the autopilot engaged, get stable early, follow the RNAV lateral & vertical profile, cross check EVERYTHING. The RNAV appch takes you straight to the threshold at 500'. I flew it today and in my opinion it's damn near impossible to misidentify it from minima if you're on profile. You NEVER call visual if you're in ANY doubt as to runway position. Your FO appearing to be confident of his position, is not an excuse that will save your ass in court.
I know IA1166 to be a damn good and conscientious instructor and I'm sure him and many other instructors are tearing their hair out about how can they train for this kind of screwup. Let's hear some of you guys' practical suggestions, as to how the instructor team can actually write a sim syllabus that will "train" people to not do something as crazy as misidentifying a half built runway in CAVOK conditions when you have so many visual cues like the ND and the lack of PAPIs and the complete lack of rubber marks on the runway etc etc etc.
Some of you guys are still talking "us" vs "them" as though you still think you're better. "We" the expats are the ones responsible for two pretty big insurance claims in the last few weeks. The rainy season is here now and it's dangerous out there. Time to walk the talk that we are professional pilots, and double down on caution and situational awareness and yes, following SOP
The captain IS responsible
Yes of course we are all only human, and there are factors i.e. he's new to the company and I believe hadn't flown the RNAV20 approach before.
Isn't that the biggest reason of all to be very cautious and make a full briefing, keep the autopilot engaged, get stable early, follow the RNAV lateral & vertical profile, cross check EVERYTHING. The RNAV appch takes you straight to the threshold at 500'. I flew it today and in my opinion it's damn near impossible to misidentify it from minima if you're on profile. You NEVER call visual if you're in ANY doubt as to runway position. Your FO appearing to be confident of his position, is not an excuse that will save your ass in court.
I know IA1166 to be a damn good and conscientious instructor and I'm sure him and many other instructors are tearing their hair out about how can they train for this kind of screwup. Let's hear some of you guys' practical suggestions, as to how the instructor team can actually write a sim syllabus that will "train" people to not do something as crazy as misidentifying a half built runway in CAVOK conditions when you have so many visual cues like the ND and the lack of PAPIs and the complete lack of rubber marks on the runway etc etc etc.
Some of you guys are still talking "us" vs "them" as though you still think you're better. "We" the expats are the ones responsible for two pretty big insurance claims in the last few weeks. The rainy season is here now and it's dangerous out there. Time to walk the talk that we are professional pilots, and double down on caution and situational awareness and yes, following SOP
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Holy **** you guys
The captain IS responsible
Yes of course we are all only human, and there are factors i.e. he's new to the company and I believe hadn't flown the RNAV20 approach before.
Isn't that the biggest reason of all to be very cautious and make a full briefing, keep the autopilot engaged, get stable early, follow the RNAV lateral & vertical profile, cross check EVERYTHING. The RNAV appch takes you straight to the threshold at 500'. I flew it today and in my opinion it's damn near impossible to misidentify it from minima if you're on profile. You NEVER call visual if you're in ANY doubt as to runway position. Your FO appearing to be confident of his position, is not an excuse that will save your ass in court.
I know IA1166 to be a damn good and conscientious instructor and I'm sure him and many other instructors are tearing their hair out about how can they train for this kind of screwup. Let's hear some of you guys' practical suggestions, as to how the instructor team can actually write a sim syllabus that will "train" people to not do something as crazy as misidentifying a half built runway in CAVOK conditions when you have so many visual cues like the ND and the lack of PAPIs and the complete lack of rubber marks on the runway etc etc etc.
Some of you guys are still talking "us" vs "them" as though you still think you're better. "We" the expats are the ones responsible for two pretty big insurance claims in the last few weeks. The rainy season is here now and it's dangerous out there. Time to walk the talk that we are professional pilots, and double down on caution and situational awareness and yes, following SOP
The captain IS responsible
Yes of course we are all only human, and there are factors i.e. he's new to the company and I believe hadn't flown the RNAV20 approach before.
Isn't that the biggest reason of all to be very cautious and make a full briefing, keep the autopilot engaged, get stable early, follow the RNAV lateral & vertical profile, cross check EVERYTHING. The RNAV appch takes you straight to the threshold at 500'. I flew it today and in my opinion it's damn near impossible to misidentify it from minima if you're on profile. You NEVER call visual if you're in ANY doubt as to runway position. Your FO appearing to be confident of his position, is not an excuse that will save your ass in court.
I know IA1166 to be a damn good and conscientious instructor and I'm sure him and many other instructors are tearing their hair out about how can they train for this kind of screwup. Let's hear some of you guys' practical suggestions, as to how the instructor team can actually write a sim syllabus that will "train" people to not do something as crazy as misidentifying a half built runway in CAVOK conditions when you have so many visual cues like the ND and the lack of PAPIs and the complete lack of rubber marks on the runway etc etc etc.
Some of you guys are still talking "us" vs "them" as though you still think you're better. "We" the expats are the ones responsible for two pretty big insurance claims in the last few weeks. The rainy season is here now and it's dangerous out there. Time to walk the talk that we are professional pilots, and double down on caution and situational awareness and yes, following SOP
I agree with both you and IA, yeah, we skippers are “ultimately” responsible for everything, but both of you have to admit there is something really wrong in this company about it’s recruitment and training traditions; upon arrival here, I myself went through 5 days of “laziness” ground training with mediocre English speaking local instructors here in HCM, followed by 6 flights, that’s 3 only Days, of flight training; that was IT! No Simulator Training, no Operational indoctrination, just a quick hop in the office to fill out paper work, two pages of standard PA announcements, and the request to “follow SOP’s”. That was three years ago and at one point I was actually looking for a new fan club to go to because I thought to myself “they can’t be serious; they are playing around but not hiring me!”.
If I was a manager here, a personally responsible part for the direction and longevity of this company, my EGO by itself would dictate a LOT more indoctrination training than what I got here. I get the fact that Emirates or Qatar is way too extreme, but VNA is nothing in comparison; can’t it be something in the middle?
And while I have the attention of some Expat Instructors here, what is up with the Chief Pilot wanting to meet up with Expats on their day off? Yeah, so, the safety consciousness suddenly kicks in with him, probably because he’s getting a lot more phone calls from the CEO now, and the way to fix it is by having a pow-wow with selected Expats when they have BBQ plans and supposed to be on their legal rest day off... it puzzles me; seems they are trying very hard to adapt western cultures, too (sarcasm!). So, with this in mind, I’m confused, is this a critical situation for VNA, or not? Because if it was, then shouldn’t they schedule me for this meeting, so Mr Chief Pilot can actually have my full attention of the message he wishes to convey?!?
This month’s Blame and Shame game has officially been scheduled for tomorrow, and I would like to know why my schedule hasn’t been adjusted, accordingly? Is it because I’ll be flying to Cam Ranh myself tomorrow?
Fact is, the SMS in VNA is a non-exsistant joke! It’s in the books, yes, but with the turn over that this company has, it is neither adecuate nor able to do its job. Instead of helping identifying risks and dangerous patterns in order to adequately train and modify behavior, it’s simply abused to punish its most important participants: the pilots! And while the locals have an economic solutions to getting their slates cleaned by, occurrences like this one by Expat Captains get the local pilots into a frenzy. Some of ya should go by the fleet office in Saigon these days; when they see an Expat head sticking through the door it gets VERY quiet suddenly...
Sorry, I for my part am not impressed at all, as usual...
Last edited by EagleA25; 3rd May 2018 at 16:12.
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So many criticisms and so few solutions offered
So tell us, specifically, what would you do to stop this kind of thing happening in future? If you say "more training" then tell us exactly what you want to do and what extra items you will add to the sim syllabus, and what items you will take OUT of the sim syllabus to fit everything into the 4 hour slot
You say "observer flights" but we all know you can go months without doing the 20 approach, will you keep the guy on line training until he's done EVERY approach from both ends of EVERY runway in the network?
**** happens. He's not 100% responsible, and I hope that the captain doesn't get sacrificed, and the FO and the ATC don't also get what they deserve. They probably won't. That's a cultural thing. I don't disagree with you that it's wrong. I just can't see what the instructors and safety department could have done differently or better in this particular case. If you CAN see something then please do take it to them, I mean that. I don't think they'd ignore you if you have a good suggestion.
So tell us, specifically, what would you do to stop this kind of thing happening in future? If you say "more training" then tell us exactly what you want to do and what extra items you will add to the sim syllabus, and what items you will take OUT of the sim syllabus to fit everything into the 4 hour slot
You say "observer flights" but we all know you can go months without doing the 20 approach, will you keep the guy on line training until he's done EVERY approach from both ends of EVERY runway in the network?
**** happens. He's not 100% responsible, and I hope that the captain doesn't get sacrificed, and the FO and the ATC don't also get what they deserve. They probably won't. That's a cultural thing. I don't disagree with you that it's wrong. I just can't see what the instructors and safety department could have done differently or better in this particular case. If you CAN see something then please do take it to them, I mean that. I don't think they'd ignore you if you have a good suggestion.
Last edited by Luke SkyToddler; 4th May 2018 at 05:30.
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Luke, more training alone would have not fixed the latest incidents. The two runway excursions and the tail strike: a simple go around would have taken care of everything. Sounds like a lack of good judgement: judgement cannot be trained. However the airline could do so much more to help the crew make a good judgement. It can start with doing away with punitive culture and implementing a non punitive one (SMS). No reports should be required in case of a go around. If a crew decides to execute a missed approach, more power to them. The public shaming needs to stop. And if a crew does deserve to get a slap on the wrist, it should be done behind closed doors. Secondly the company needs to get away from an Aero Club mentality and become a real airline. This means either hire real dispatchers or train the ones who call themselves "dispatchers" to provide proper information to crews during briefing. It takes more to be a dispatcher than print out flight plans and tell you the ZFW. As far as training, train the F/Os to properly read NOTAMS. There is more to NOTAMS than VIP movements. Runway and taxiway closures etc. need to be addressed. And lastly, it takes authorities weeks and perhaps months to investigate an incident. Strangely at VNA it takes a couple of days and the "follow SOP strictly" solves it all. Till next time ....
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Luke, more training alone would have not fixed the latest incidents. The two runway excursions and the tail strike: a simple go around would have taken care of everything. Sounds like a lack of good judgement: judgement cannot be trained. However the airline could do so much more to help the crew make a good judgement. It can start with doing away with punitive culture and implementing a non punitive one (SMS). No reports should be required in case of a go around. If a crew decides to execute a missed approach, more power to them. The public shaming needs to stop. And if a crew does deserve to get a slap on the wrist, it should be done behind closed doors. Secondly the company needs to get away from an Aero Club mentality and become a real airline. This means either hire real dispatchers or train the ones who call themselves "dispatchers" to provide proper information to crews during briefing. It takes more to be a dispatcher than print out flight plans and tell you the ZFW. As far as training, train the F/Os to properly read NOTAMS. There is more to NOTAMS than VIP movements. Runway and taxiway closures etc. need to be addressed. And lastly, it takes authorities weeks and perhaps months to investigate an incident. Strangely at VNA it takes a couple of days and the "follow SOP strictly" solves it all. Till next time ....
perhaps a side note: a reason for a go-around for statistical purposes I would request, purpose to identify patterns such as ATC, weather, or simply Pilot Training.
One thing I like what you said, and I mean a lot, is the “get rid of punitive measurement” and “need for public shaming”mentality; I just can’t get my head around how the Chief Pilot wishes to improve their relationship with pilots by handing it to them with sticks. Do managers really believe we wake up and get out of bed in the morning with the intent of breaking an airplane today?
Luke, in my comments I ment no offense, and I think (and hope) we’re all on the same team, because I know it’s hard to teach common sense in this region; what is even harder is teaching in an internal company culture that inspires a privilege of laziness, Because that is what is happening: we are too comfortable with not moving another finger to even audit ourselfs when we fly! Perhaps even because some of us might not like what we will see at the end as the work ambience of the company promotes a level laziness that I can only describe as Habit-forming; and I am the first to admit: I am one of them!
I agree that “**** happens”, and being a keen AvHerald reader, I am very aware it happens all the time; but you can’t just go out to the plane with your fingers crossed hoping that it won’t happen to you today.
I remember hearing a local FO saying “we don’t always have to do everything perfectly!” to which I replied asking him if he would want ME to do my job perfectly if his mother or girlfriend was on board; guess what, I’ve never seen an FO enter the requested enrute winds so quickly into the MCDU in my career because I explained him that we owe this to all our customers, not just his family...
Fact is, if your normal ops is disciplined, your abnormal will be a matter of mind-over-body; but when things go wrong and you were not doing your job the way you are supposed to, and are not used to doing it, chances are that will probably end with a hull loss if it is a more complex failure.
But, as asked, here is my wish, Luke, and IA1166:
take the list that Wingedeagle mentioned and put it in front of management, in writing; that way it is a responsability that the managers HAVE to comply with or be accountable in case of an accident.
Have the balls as experienced instructors in Vietnam Airlines to highly recommend these changes, promote a non-punitive SMS system, one that analyzes data and corrects behavior, not beats its best source of information to pulp and into submission by ways of the force and fear! If not, the turn over rate will just keep going and nothing good will come from that... I myself am just too lazy to look for a new job by now...
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Fair enough wingdeagle can't disagree with any of that
Also on further reflection I think now would be a very good time to push for a big overhaul of our bloated briefings, and replace them with a "threat forward", shorter more relevant and more interactive brief, such as they are using in Alaskan and Cathay and a few other forward thinking airlines nowadays https://www.aerosociety.com/news/briefing-better/
"If" I was an instructor I'd be pushing for that. But like most pilots here, I'm 0% interested in the extra stress, politics and risk to my licence of being an instructor, vs the miniscule extra reward they pay for it. Maybe that's something else that needs to change
Also on further reflection I think now would be a very good time to push for a big overhaul of our bloated briefings, and replace them with a "threat forward", shorter more relevant and more interactive brief, such as they are using in Alaskan and Cathay and a few other forward thinking airlines nowadays https://www.aerosociety.com/news/briefing-better/
"If" I was an instructor I'd be pushing for that. But like most pilots here, I'm 0% interested in the extra stress, politics and risk to my licence of being an instructor, vs the miniscule extra reward they pay for it. Maybe that's something else that needs to change
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I just finished 4 years withVNA.
Unfortunalty They have gotten worse every year I have been here.
You make the mistake of going with Parc. Your contract is worth nothing.
7 paid sick days in 6 months says the contract. But company changed FOM
so your schedule if screwed for rest of month after calling in sick and you have to work extra day to repay company.
how is that a paid sick day? Basically the company does what ever they want and Parc
Rolls over immediately. There are No Regs Here at all. If You go over Your allowed Captains discretion
Vice President calls and all of a sudden You are magically legal to fly till u drop. I have been coerced into doing 19 hour 6 sector all nite
duty!!!! And forget about any travel benfits. U only get ( more expensive then real ticket online) standby tickets
only where company operates. No sky team. No code shar, no zed far. No interline.
because of the contract you will work 100 hours month-No over time, because that's 160 hours
in 2 calendar months. With 6/2 schedule you will fly 159.9 hours in 6 weeks. You will have God awful
all night china turn arounds 3 -4 times per month. You will never ever get more then 7 days off in a month.
and they have no definition of what a day off is ( even though u are required to have 7 per month).No one knows what a day off is here.
they told me that I had day off when My report was at 00:30!!!! There are no rules. Schedules always change
its about the worst contract I have had ( out of 11 companys I have worked for on contract). They treat foreigners just as bad as they
Treat each other. To summarize. You will hate it, and when You leave they will try and charge you money for every sick day or day off they said you owe them. Basic a fu..^*¥ed up company that gets worse every month. I am so happy not to work there any more.
thats just Me. You might enjoy the abuse. Good Luck!
Unfortunalty They have gotten worse every year I have been here.
You make the mistake of going with Parc. Your contract is worth nothing.
7 paid sick days in 6 months says the contract. But company changed FOM
so your schedule if screwed for rest of month after calling in sick and you have to work extra day to repay company.
how is that a paid sick day? Basically the company does what ever they want and Parc
Rolls over immediately. There are No Regs Here at all. If You go over Your allowed Captains discretion
Vice President calls and all of a sudden You are magically legal to fly till u drop. I have been coerced into doing 19 hour 6 sector all nite
duty!!!! And forget about any travel benfits. U only get ( more expensive then real ticket online) standby tickets
only where company operates. No sky team. No code shar, no zed far. No interline.
because of the contract you will work 100 hours month-No over time, because that's 160 hours
in 2 calendar months. With 6/2 schedule you will fly 159.9 hours in 6 weeks. You will have God awful
all night china turn arounds 3 -4 times per month. You will never ever get more then 7 days off in a month.
and they have no definition of what a day off is ( even though u are required to have 7 per month).No one knows what a day off is here.
they told me that I had day off when My report was at 00:30!!!! There are no rules. Schedules always change
its about the worst contract I have had ( out of 11 companys I have worked for on contract). They treat foreigners just as bad as they
Treat each other. To summarize. You will hate it, and when You leave they will try and charge you money for every sick day or day off they said you owe them. Basic a fu..^*¥ed up company that gets worse every month. I am so happy not to work there any more.
thats just Me. You might enjoy the abuse. Good Luck!
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I agree with most of the things but why did you stay for 4 years if you didn’t like it from beginning???
All in all, very ****ty company
PARC contract is crap but also beacuse it’s a crap, you can avoid all penalties if you leave earlier. Just consulting a lawyer, you can find that they don’t have any legal basis for most of the things they ask for.
Also, you signed 7 days off per month, so why would you expect more?
Days off were defined. If it’s not clear in OM, you should consult CAAV flight time limitations document. It was based on UK CAP, so pretty detailed and good (maybe that changed but 2 years ago it was still in force).
And nobody can force you to fly above the limits or to use your discretion if you don’t want to do it. They can try, but as a captain you can and should decline it
Also, I believe that your 19h duty was with augmented crew, so it’s little bit more complicated
All in all, very ****ty company
PARC contract is crap but also beacuse it’s a crap, you can avoid all penalties if you leave earlier. Just consulting a lawyer, you can find that they don’t have any legal basis for most of the things they ask for.
Also, you signed 7 days off per month, so why would you expect more?
Days off were defined. If it’s not clear in OM, you should consult CAAV flight time limitations document. It was based on UK CAP, so pretty detailed and good (maybe that changed but 2 years ago it was still in force).
And nobody can force you to fly above the limits or to use your discretion if you don’t want to do it. They can try, but as a captain you can and should decline it
Also, I believe that your 19h duty was with augmented crew, so it’s little bit more complicated
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In reference to your “augmented Crew”: where is it allowed on the Narrow body to do so? Your third-world-country business class seat in the A321is NOT approved by the CAAV as an apropriate rest place. It is neither isolated nor adequate.
I personally brought this subject up with my Broker, and after months being ignored I sent an email to the fleet manager himself. Same resonse as my broker! None
You want to discuss legality of a communist led company owned by a communist country? Legality is the least of their worries; we are defined mercenaries, we might as well break the rules for THEM, because following SOP’s strictly at VNA requieres absolute flexibility...
Everyone talks about it, everyone here knows it, and even my own layer told me, the reenforced crew procedure at VNA is both illegal AND unsafe, but it makes them rich, Expats are expendable, so no one cares about your legality here, unless they get another event, and then the Expat has to go...
Last edited by EagleA25; 13th May 2018 at 19:36. Reason: Bad grammar...
