Vietnam Airlines (info please)
Join Date: Feb 2003
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Good afternoon Ladies and Gentlemen.
I'm currently seeking employment on the A320/1 fleet based in HAN.
Any info would be greatly appreciated on the feasibility of commuting between HAN and SYD/MEL. Direct flights? Stby travel and likelihood of upgrades? What is VNA policy on using crew jumps seats?
Many thanks in anticipation.
I'm currently seeking employment on the A320/1 fleet based in HAN.
Any info would be greatly appreciated on the feasibility of commuting between HAN and SYD/MEL. Direct flights? Stby travel and likelihood of upgrades? What is VNA policy on using crew jumps seats?
Many thanks in anticipation.
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Hanoi
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Stay away
My friend, stay away. They will nationalize the company only for locals, or expat with no experience who are paying 100.000 USD for the training here. If u don't fly A350 or 787, stay away, there is not future for expat in this company, doesn't matter what the agencies are saying, they need only TRE, TRI and LTC to train the 200 local cadets plus the 150 rich expat cadets paying 100.000 usd for the training.
After no more than 3 years, all expat will be fired, including the Captains and TRE, TRI and LTC joining now. If you don't have more options, ok, but i recomend you to find something better... This is not worthy. They are firing now all senior FO's in the middle in the contract, next will be the Captains, when the actual local FO's flying already become Captains, and when the 200 local cadets are released, covering the empty space of those locals FO's who were upgraded. The ATR will be flying VNA maybe one more year... I have been told in the office today, for a very very good local friend, so i am looking for another options right now. Good luck guys!!
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I don't think a full time contract is for me with minimum days off between flights. I'm looking for some quality time off whilst based in warmer climes.
Thanks for the suggestion though.
Thanks for the suggestion though.
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Join Date: Oct 2004
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Good afternoon Ladies and Gentlemen.
I'm currently seeking employment on the A320/1 fleet based in HAN.
Any info would be greatly appreciated on the feasibility of commuting between HAN and SYD/MEL. Direct flights? Stby travel and likelihood of upgrades? What is VNA policy on using crew jumps seats?
Many thanks in anticipation.
I'm currently seeking employment on the A320/1 fleet based in HAN.
Any info would be greatly appreciated on the feasibility of commuting between HAN and SYD/MEL. Direct flights? Stby travel and likelihood of upgrades? What is VNA policy on using crew jumps seats?
Many thanks in anticipation.
Head to Jetstar, mate...
Join Date: Apr 2017
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Well; my 50 cents here since I've seen almost everyone complaint but not really bring up the facts. Let me see if I can shed some details on why so many have negative responses at the moment:
Let bring one fact to the discussion: as an Expatriate, being an FO, a Captain, TRI, TRE or GOD, in Vietnam Airlines, as in any other Airline in Vietnam and most of SE Asia, you DO NOT work for Vietnam Airlines; you work for an intermediate company, a Broker, who sells out your skills, experience and expertise! It is of the utmost importance to understand that you are but NOTHING ELSE than a Mercenary for the locals! Keep that in mind!
Now, this is Asia and any Asian led company hiring Expats will believe that this is THE BEST job offer out there in the world. You are, in their mind, obligated to feel thankful that they hired and welcomed you to their amazing country, though most Expats will say "how the hell did I end up in this ****-hole?".
If you are unable or unwilling to adapt to what I, a westerner, in my year and a half here observed as a suppressive and fear oriented work culture, then don't even dream to apply here. You can do everything right and since you are the expendable Expat, YOU will take the blame, YOU will get fired and YOU will pay any damages! Locals will lie through their teeth to cover their asses, not including the hypocrisy of this entire entity. Here you have NO rights as you are in THEIR socialist country, not even the right to defend yourself if you are blamed for any event. And guess what else: NO Broker Company will stand up and defend you as they do not wish to upset their so fragile asian customer relationship by loosing face, which is the managers of the Airlines.
This kind of mid-evil, outdated and, for westerners incomprehensible, form of management is still strongly rooted into the "culture" of any company directed by Vietnamese or, as a matter of fact, almost any Asian managers. They are "born" into this corrupt system and environment and I don't see any tendency that this will improve in this century.
Another interesting factor is that even though Asian companies, even VNA, a state-owned socialist enterprise, want results and efficiency levels as high as European or American companies, most are neither willing to invest nor make the western type of effort to get to that level. Instead, in the traditional Asian way, problems are usually ignored until they disappear by themselves! VNA is no exception!
But lets take a closer look at what VNA promises and what it has to offer, so to say the "pro's and con's":
Attractive Renumeration Package:
no, not really, unless you work full time, that being an exhausting 10-1 schedule; but, until recently, the entire Expat A321 fleet was forced to a 6-3 scheme, dozens of pilots already resigned as QR and HK Air smelled blood in the waters and came to Vietnam to recruit. Surprisingly, management regretted that peanut saving decision and offered veteran pilots to return to their normal roster.
Also, you will be made believe that you will have a great chance to earn extra for every hour over 160 bi-monthly. Until today I have never exceeded that on an 6-3 schedule, and what I heard, you never will, even working full time here.
Another note here: VNA scheduling will NEVER be responsible for your schedule. Its up to YOU to stay legal! Good luck with that!
Great benefits package:
Well, medical insurance varies as it depends on your Broker; but when it comes to Stby Tickets, VNA made sure to complicate the hell out of the process so you will just don't WANT to use that benefit. I personally was bumped on "guaranteed" home tickets a few times as their logic is "you are just an Expat".
Forget ZED or Interline; they will never get those, not even for their own pilots as they would never know how to use them, anyways.
Possibility of upgrade and career advancement:
yeah, sure; and I also belive in Santa Claus; you might want to try getting on a wide body for US$60 grand and 4-6 months of no pay, but only if you pass a ridiculous humiliating interview with management which is nothing but bias for Expats; but hey, there will always be some suckers who will starve to death to do that; rumors were also floated that some "intimate favors" were the way to get ahead as a female FO to be considered for upgrades, but there is no proof of that, of course.
But as an Expat FO, don't hold your breath for your command here, you will be very disappointed!
Great working pattern:
yeah, especially the A321 Fleet could sing a song and cry a river about how, without warning, the ****-ups of upper management is costing them a lot of money. Suddenly now you can go back to your previous roster after already making adjustments to your life style upon receiving the bad news, like you perhaps already pulled your kids out of the school or so.
Great work environment:
well, that depends with whom you fly with, and where they are based; the locals bitch about all of the expats, more the guys from up north than from SGN, but most complaints are actually about our Russian counterparts. In general though, the work ambience in VNA has always been toxic, from what I heard, but I think things are on a steep descend and almost spiraling downward. Management does not offer any kind of promises, neither do the brokers. Last month 30+ First Officers were surprised to receive their release notice from VNA, even though there are 140+ "cadet pilots" lined up to join the airline; definition of hypocrisy?
Efficient Safety Management System
Not really! As mentioned previously, the general work culture is one of fear motivated to avoid punishment and being publicly embarrassed. Monthly "Safety meetings" are held to "shame and blame" Expats, very few locals get burned in those as they have their own, secret meetings; only when the "sacrificial offer", the gift, to the Safety Manager and boss was too low or the event too public to cover up, local pilot get roasted.
It sometimes stuns me how much this airline must loose each day for inadequately trained pilots carrying excessive extra fuel; but as it turns out, in the past, management tried to put an end to that by publishing a list of the "worst extra fuel pilots". So, pilots stopped doing that. Turns out that it provoked a huge wave of flights alternating due to ATC delays and weather at destination. Again, management stopped their penny pinching tendencies and things got better.
Living with the "asian culture", in my personal opinion, as a Westerner or Australian, is a challenge itself. Again, everything is a party when things go as planned, but sooner or later things will go sideways and any one of the locals, that being a pilot, manager, dispatcher or air traffic controller, will sell his grandma to keep face.
Also, there is a profound understanding that lying to an Expats face seems to be allowed and is not frowned upon when it serves a purpose for the Asian; thats how so many North and Central American Expats signed on as VNA was supposed to operate to the US since December 2015. I wonder when management will understand that it is exactly THAT cultural problem that will get any US Operations Certificate revoked shortly after it's been issued, if ever!
You are a visitor in SE Asia, so you will be expected to behave like one, adapt, and when its time to go, leave. I'd have a plan before that time comes.
The choice is yours
Good luck
Let bring one fact to the discussion: as an Expatriate, being an FO, a Captain, TRI, TRE or GOD, in Vietnam Airlines, as in any other Airline in Vietnam and most of SE Asia, you DO NOT work for Vietnam Airlines; you work for an intermediate company, a Broker, who sells out your skills, experience and expertise! It is of the utmost importance to understand that you are but NOTHING ELSE than a Mercenary for the locals! Keep that in mind!
Now, this is Asia and any Asian led company hiring Expats will believe that this is THE BEST job offer out there in the world. You are, in their mind, obligated to feel thankful that they hired and welcomed you to their amazing country, though most Expats will say "how the hell did I end up in this ****-hole?".
If you are unable or unwilling to adapt to what I, a westerner, in my year and a half here observed as a suppressive and fear oriented work culture, then don't even dream to apply here. You can do everything right and since you are the expendable Expat, YOU will take the blame, YOU will get fired and YOU will pay any damages! Locals will lie through their teeth to cover their asses, not including the hypocrisy of this entire entity. Here you have NO rights as you are in THEIR socialist country, not even the right to defend yourself if you are blamed for any event. And guess what else: NO Broker Company will stand up and defend you as they do not wish to upset their so fragile asian customer relationship by loosing face, which is the managers of the Airlines.
This kind of mid-evil, outdated and, for westerners incomprehensible, form of management is still strongly rooted into the "culture" of any company directed by Vietnamese or, as a matter of fact, almost any Asian managers. They are "born" into this corrupt system and environment and I don't see any tendency that this will improve in this century.
Another interesting factor is that even though Asian companies, even VNA, a state-owned socialist enterprise, want results and efficiency levels as high as European or American companies, most are neither willing to invest nor make the western type of effort to get to that level. Instead, in the traditional Asian way, problems are usually ignored until they disappear by themselves! VNA is no exception!
But lets take a closer look at what VNA promises and what it has to offer, so to say the "pro's and con's":
Attractive Renumeration Package:
no, not really, unless you work full time, that being an exhausting 10-1 schedule; but, until recently, the entire Expat A321 fleet was forced to a 6-3 scheme, dozens of pilots already resigned as QR and HK Air smelled blood in the waters and came to Vietnam to recruit. Surprisingly, management regretted that peanut saving decision and offered veteran pilots to return to their normal roster.
Also, you will be made believe that you will have a great chance to earn extra for every hour over 160 bi-monthly. Until today I have never exceeded that on an 6-3 schedule, and what I heard, you never will, even working full time here.
Another note here: VNA scheduling will NEVER be responsible for your schedule. Its up to YOU to stay legal! Good luck with that!
Great benefits package:
Well, medical insurance varies as it depends on your Broker; but when it comes to Stby Tickets, VNA made sure to complicate the hell out of the process so you will just don't WANT to use that benefit. I personally was bumped on "guaranteed" home tickets a few times as their logic is "you are just an Expat".
Forget ZED or Interline; they will never get those, not even for their own pilots as they would never know how to use them, anyways.
Possibility of upgrade and career advancement:
yeah, sure; and I also belive in Santa Claus; you might want to try getting on a wide body for US$60 grand and 4-6 months of no pay, but only if you pass a ridiculous humiliating interview with management which is nothing but bias for Expats; but hey, there will always be some suckers who will starve to death to do that; rumors were also floated that some "intimate favors" were the way to get ahead as a female FO to be considered for upgrades, but there is no proof of that, of course.
But as an Expat FO, don't hold your breath for your command here, you will be very disappointed!
Great working pattern:
yeah, especially the A321 Fleet could sing a song and cry a river about how, without warning, the ****-ups of upper management is costing them a lot of money. Suddenly now you can go back to your previous roster after already making adjustments to your life style upon receiving the bad news, like you perhaps already pulled your kids out of the school or so.
Great work environment:
well, that depends with whom you fly with, and where they are based; the locals bitch about all of the expats, more the guys from up north than from SGN, but most complaints are actually about our Russian counterparts. In general though, the work ambience in VNA has always been toxic, from what I heard, but I think things are on a steep descend and almost spiraling downward. Management does not offer any kind of promises, neither do the brokers. Last month 30+ First Officers were surprised to receive their release notice from VNA, even though there are 140+ "cadet pilots" lined up to join the airline; definition of hypocrisy?
Efficient Safety Management System
Not really! As mentioned previously, the general work culture is one of fear motivated to avoid punishment and being publicly embarrassed. Monthly "Safety meetings" are held to "shame and blame" Expats, very few locals get burned in those as they have their own, secret meetings; only when the "sacrificial offer", the gift, to the Safety Manager and boss was too low or the event too public to cover up, local pilot get roasted.
It sometimes stuns me how much this airline must loose each day for inadequately trained pilots carrying excessive extra fuel; but as it turns out, in the past, management tried to put an end to that by publishing a list of the "worst extra fuel pilots". So, pilots stopped doing that. Turns out that it provoked a huge wave of flights alternating due to ATC delays and weather at destination. Again, management stopped their penny pinching tendencies and things got better.
Living with the "asian culture", in my personal opinion, as a Westerner or Australian, is a challenge itself. Again, everything is a party when things go as planned, but sooner or later things will go sideways and any one of the locals, that being a pilot, manager, dispatcher or air traffic controller, will sell his grandma to keep face.
Also, there is a profound understanding that lying to an Expats face seems to be allowed and is not frowned upon when it serves a purpose for the Asian; thats how so many North and Central American Expats signed on as VNA was supposed to operate to the US since December 2015. I wonder when management will understand that it is exactly THAT cultural problem that will get any US Operations Certificate revoked shortly after it's been issued, if ever!
You are a visitor in SE Asia, so you will be expected to behave like one, adapt, and when its time to go, leave. I'd have a plan before that time comes.
The choice is yours
Good luck
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Regarding the above post, here is my 50 cents on that:
I never felt like a mercenary.
I never felt obligated to be thankful for the job.
I never described Vietnam as a sh*thole. My expat friends never described Vietnam as a sh*thole. The major thing that seemed to be a discussion point was the pollution in Hanoi.
I didn't feel that the working culture was suppressive, however I did notice a fear culture amongst a significant proportion of local pilots who, on occasion, appeared to operate to the FOQA limits instead of to the SOP. I tried my best to alleviate this practice on my flights.
Most of the expats that I know of who were involved in safety incidents were not fired. I never heard of a local pilot being fired, but they were certainly demoted.
I have never heard of any pilot paying for aircraft/equipment damage. I did hear of local and expat pilots losing salary (per day) whilst being suspended due to pending investigation of serious safety events. However, I think this is in the contract (something about not being able to be rostered for duty during your on rotation).
I do believe some but not all locals will lie to save his a*s as opposed to yours. I did not experience this, nor did any of my expat friends.
You do have the right to defend yourself in the event of a safety event. Many have and were not fired.
Regarding the role of the agency in defending you when need a helping hand, you are probably correct, but I never required such help. You can only expect the agency to do what is in the contract, and nothing more. This is the viewpoint I took when I started the contract. Take this, have a backup plan and you won't be disappointed. I had no issues with my agency, in fact they were great to work for.
I have flown with various other operators, in other cultures, and the view you give of management is generally the same everywhere. However, I had no issues with management.
I share your view of the political and social culture, but this never bothered me or affected my ability to do my job, get paid for it and enjoy myself in Vietnam. I suggest you get laid more
I previously worked in what most would view as a 'higher overall reward package' airline, but I can tell you after taking into account the amount of vacation you get in VN and the cost of living, I was better off at VN. Yes the money isn't the same as China, but you have a choice and I made a choice not to pursue China, as I felt (and subsequently experienced) what appeared to be much less headache during application, screening, training, line operations and simulator.
The exhausting 10/1 schedule is by choice and is not much different to most full-time A320 operations that I have experienced. The actual daily duties at VN were by far the easiest/least tiring duties I have experienced in my career.
Your statement regarding the force to 6/3 is true, but what most should have done (i.e. the smart thing to do) was to just sit tight and let them realise that they cannot crew the aircraft by making the Captains reduce their roster (this took me about 1 hour to calculate and come to such a conclusion, also based on other expats' advice that VN will revert this instruction in about 1 month's time, based on precedence).
I was never made to believe that I would earn overtime on a 6/3 roster. In fact I averaged < 40 hours per month on this pattern. If one wants overtime, then one should choose a higher pattern.
You are correct, you will never work full time here. That is why most pilots choose this contract!
Yes crewing on occasion tried to get me to fly illegaly, (happened in every airline I have ever flown with), but this was generally after a roster disruption - i.e, I was never rostered illegally. I simply denied their request with my reasons and I never received management backlash.
I was hospitalised whilst in Vietnam, and my insurance paid back every dollar.
I never used a standby ticket. When I wanted to travel within Vietnam/SE Asia, I just bought the cheapest full fare ticket I could find (with the salary and the cost of living, this is not an issue).
I was never bumped off a confirmed ticket to/from home. In fact I always managed to get the Business Class upgrade as promised. If indeed you did get bumped off, then this is an issue you can take up with the agency as it is a breach of contract. Actually this happens in many of the other expat airlines around the world, so it is nothing new. Over-bookings happen, its a fact of life. However, it never did for me.
ZED fare for expat contract pilots? This is not in the contract anywhere, so no need to expect it.
Career upgrade? Enter as an A321 Captain and you don't need anything nor should expect anything else. Its a contract job! If you want career progression, go the Middle East, but be prepared for the flak that comes with that, or better yet, get with the legacy airline of your home country (if you can).
Yes the upgrade interview for expat FOs seemed to be biased and pre-planned to have them fail. However, I believe that VN wast not impressed by the attitude and competency of some of these FOs, and unfortunately, on some occasions I understood their point of view. All of them however were much more competent than the most of the local FOs. Anyway, enter an Asian contract as an FO and you expect an upgrade?
Your statement about the company reversing their decision regarding the roster reduction is somewhat true, but it is not the entire story. The story I got was that new upper management wanted to reduce costs and implemented this order without seeking approval from the roster department. Hence the roster department advised that a reduction was not possible, and then upper management withdrew their order.
Yes it is true that the locals have a b*tch session about the expats, but then again we (including myself) are guilty of the exact same thing at times. It is nothing new and happens in all expat/contract jobs. This is natural.
Your statement about our Russian counterparts I feel is unfair. There are some really nice young Russian Captains who are on the same wavelength as me regarding SOP, CRM and overall Airbus knowledge. And they are a pleasure to have a beer with.
It is true that crew interaction between pilots and cabin crew is almost non-existent in HAN, but better in SGN. But there is plenty of interaction from locals outside the airline, so its not an issue for most.
Regarding flying with local pilots - only one CRM issue I had and I dealt with it after landing and the issue didn't go past this point. 95% of local pilots are respectful and courteous to fly with.
Yes it is true that 30+ expat FOs are being made redundant and are being replaced by P2F expat cadets. Why would the airline not take advantage of this? Perfect business sense for them. I don't agree with it, but like I said before, entering the contract world as an FO in Asia always carries significant risk.
The monthly name and shame meetings is true. Quite an eye opener really
But it wasn't just the expacts getting the shaming - more the local pilots, and it seemed like it was always the new young local Captains doing most of the stuff-ups. It wouldn't surprise me however if a 'gift' was used as a get out of jail free card, but this is Asia, and it is their train-set. Just don't stuff up, operate to SOP, promote good CRM, don't cut corners and you shouldn't have to be at one of those safety meetings. If it is pure bad luck that you are, then you have the chance to explain yourself.
I agree that fuel uplift is out of control here. Yes I did see the list of 'heavy fuel uplifters' but that did stop being published many years ago. Guys divert because they don't TAKE ENOUGH fuel when the weather is bad or unpredictable. It is a good thing that the management don't bug you on your uplift, but this doesn't mean you have to uplight extra fuel just because you have a free ticket to do so. The weather, infrastructure and fuel policy in VN is no different to what I have been used to, so my personal uplift policy did not change just to fit into the VN culture. I was told I was one of only about 2 expats that regularly took CFP fuel into HAN during the winter. In my experience, the weather never really called for it in winter, and neither did any NOTAM / FON regarding traffic etc. Overall, 0 diversions and 0 min fuel calls. Sensible uplifts based on sensible decisions.
I have lived as an expat in 3 different cultures, and living in Vietnam was definitely NOT A CHALLENGE.
I never felt like a mercenary.
I never felt obligated to be thankful for the job.
I never described Vietnam as a sh*thole. My expat friends never described Vietnam as a sh*thole. The major thing that seemed to be a discussion point was the pollution in Hanoi.
I didn't feel that the working culture was suppressive, however I did notice a fear culture amongst a significant proportion of local pilots who, on occasion, appeared to operate to the FOQA limits instead of to the SOP. I tried my best to alleviate this practice on my flights.
Most of the expats that I know of who were involved in safety incidents were not fired. I never heard of a local pilot being fired, but they were certainly demoted.
I have never heard of any pilot paying for aircraft/equipment damage. I did hear of local and expat pilots losing salary (per day) whilst being suspended due to pending investigation of serious safety events. However, I think this is in the contract (something about not being able to be rostered for duty during your on rotation).
I do believe some but not all locals will lie to save his a*s as opposed to yours. I did not experience this, nor did any of my expat friends.
You do have the right to defend yourself in the event of a safety event. Many have and were not fired.
Regarding the role of the agency in defending you when need a helping hand, you are probably correct, but I never required such help. You can only expect the agency to do what is in the contract, and nothing more. This is the viewpoint I took when I started the contract. Take this, have a backup plan and you won't be disappointed. I had no issues with my agency, in fact they were great to work for.
I have flown with various other operators, in other cultures, and the view you give of management is generally the same everywhere. However, I had no issues with management.
I share your view of the political and social culture, but this never bothered me or affected my ability to do my job, get paid for it and enjoy myself in Vietnam. I suggest you get laid more
I previously worked in what most would view as a 'higher overall reward package' airline, but I can tell you after taking into account the amount of vacation you get in VN and the cost of living, I was better off at VN. Yes the money isn't the same as China, but you have a choice and I made a choice not to pursue China, as I felt (and subsequently experienced) what appeared to be much less headache during application, screening, training, line operations and simulator.
The exhausting 10/1 schedule is by choice and is not much different to most full-time A320 operations that I have experienced. The actual daily duties at VN were by far the easiest/least tiring duties I have experienced in my career.
Your statement regarding the force to 6/3 is true, but what most should have done (i.e. the smart thing to do) was to just sit tight and let them realise that they cannot crew the aircraft by making the Captains reduce their roster (this took me about 1 hour to calculate and come to such a conclusion, also based on other expats' advice that VN will revert this instruction in about 1 month's time, based on precedence).
I was never made to believe that I would earn overtime on a 6/3 roster. In fact I averaged < 40 hours per month on this pattern. If one wants overtime, then one should choose a higher pattern.
You are correct, you will never work full time here. That is why most pilots choose this contract!
Yes crewing on occasion tried to get me to fly illegaly, (happened in every airline I have ever flown with), but this was generally after a roster disruption - i.e, I was never rostered illegally. I simply denied their request with my reasons and I never received management backlash.
I was hospitalised whilst in Vietnam, and my insurance paid back every dollar.
I never used a standby ticket. When I wanted to travel within Vietnam/SE Asia, I just bought the cheapest full fare ticket I could find (with the salary and the cost of living, this is not an issue).
I was never bumped off a confirmed ticket to/from home. In fact I always managed to get the Business Class upgrade as promised. If indeed you did get bumped off, then this is an issue you can take up with the agency as it is a breach of contract. Actually this happens in many of the other expat airlines around the world, so it is nothing new. Over-bookings happen, its a fact of life. However, it never did for me.
ZED fare for expat contract pilots? This is not in the contract anywhere, so no need to expect it.
Career upgrade? Enter as an A321 Captain and you don't need anything nor should expect anything else. Its a contract job! If you want career progression, go the Middle East, but be prepared for the flak that comes with that, or better yet, get with the legacy airline of your home country (if you can).
Yes the upgrade interview for expat FOs seemed to be biased and pre-planned to have them fail. However, I believe that VN wast not impressed by the attitude and competency of some of these FOs, and unfortunately, on some occasions I understood their point of view. All of them however were much more competent than the most of the local FOs. Anyway, enter an Asian contract as an FO and you expect an upgrade?
Your statement about the company reversing their decision regarding the roster reduction is somewhat true, but it is not the entire story. The story I got was that new upper management wanted to reduce costs and implemented this order without seeking approval from the roster department. Hence the roster department advised that a reduction was not possible, and then upper management withdrew their order.
Yes it is true that the locals have a b*tch session about the expats, but then again we (including myself) are guilty of the exact same thing at times. It is nothing new and happens in all expat/contract jobs. This is natural.
Your statement about our Russian counterparts I feel is unfair. There are some really nice young Russian Captains who are on the same wavelength as me regarding SOP, CRM and overall Airbus knowledge. And they are a pleasure to have a beer with.
It is true that crew interaction between pilots and cabin crew is almost non-existent in HAN, but better in SGN. But there is plenty of interaction from locals outside the airline, so its not an issue for most.
Regarding flying with local pilots - only one CRM issue I had and I dealt with it after landing and the issue didn't go past this point. 95% of local pilots are respectful and courteous to fly with.
Yes it is true that 30+ expat FOs are being made redundant and are being replaced by P2F expat cadets. Why would the airline not take advantage of this? Perfect business sense for them. I don't agree with it, but like I said before, entering the contract world as an FO in Asia always carries significant risk.
The monthly name and shame meetings is true. Quite an eye opener really
But it wasn't just the expacts getting the shaming - more the local pilots, and it seemed like it was always the new young local Captains doing most of the stuff-ups. It wouldn't surprise me however if a 'gift' was used as a get out of jail free card, but this is Asia, and it is their train-set. Just don't stuff up, operate to SOP, promote good CRM, don't cut corners and you shouldn't have to be at one of those safety meetings. If it is pure bad luck that you are, then you have the chance to explain yourself.I agree that fuel uplift is out of control here. Yes I did see the list of 'heavy fuel uplifters' but that did stop being published many years ago. Guys divert because they don't TAKE ENOUGH fuel when the weather is bad or unpredictable. It is a good thing that the management don't bug you on your uplift, but this doesn't mean you have to uplight extra fuel just because you have a free ticket to do so. The weather, infrastructure and fuel policy in VN is no different to what I have been used to, so my personal uplift policy did not change just to fit into the VN culture. I was told I was one of only about 2 expats that regularly took CFP fuel into HAN during the winter. In my experience, the weather never really called for it in winter, and neither did any NOTAM / FON regarding traffic etc. Overall, 0 diversions and 0 min fuel calls. Sensible uplifts based on sensible decisions.
I have lived as an expat in 3 different cultures, and living in Vietnam was definitely NOT A CHALLENGE.
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Yes the upgrade interview for expat FOs seemed to be biased and pre-planned to have them fail. However, I believe that VN wast not impressed by the attitude and competency of some of these FOs, and unfortunately, on some occasions I understood their point of view. All of them however were much more competent
For your information all those FO are alredy been employed elsewhere , most of them as a direct entry captains, maybe in Airlines than you can only dream off. IV flown with all of them, those guys they where constantly called to fly with some captains considered " at risk"..
Attitude? When someone ask you the diameter of the cable that connect the fuel truck to the plane... which kind of attitude you must have? Smile?
Duty time one of the lowest you have ever experienced ? Where have you been flying before? Nigeria ? Iran?
80hrs 198 duty In March
For your information all those FO are alredy been employed elsewhere , most of them as a direct entry captains, maybe in Airlines than you can only dream off. IV flown with all of them, those guys they where constantly called to fly with some captains considered " at risk"..
Attitude? When someone ask you the diameter of the cable that connect the fuel truck to the plane... which kind of attitude you must have? Smile?
Duty time one of the lowest you have ever experienced ? Where have you been flying before? Nigeria ? Iran?
80hrs 198 duty In March
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For your information all those FO are alredy been employed elsewhere , most of them as a direct entry captains, maybe in Airlines than you can only dream off.
IV flown with all of them, those guys they where constantly called to fly with some captains considered " at risk"..
The fact is, that the VN management believe that experienced FOs are not needed and are too expensive, and the current expat and local Captains are good enough to fly with local and expat Cadets. It makes no sense in THEIR minds to pay an FO 3 x the salary of a local FO. I WISH they retained the expat FOs and gave them upgrades, but it makes no financial sense for them to do this if THEY THINK that their experience is not needed.
Attitude? When someone ask you the diameter of the cable that connect the fuel truck to the plane... which kind of attitude you must have? Smile?
Duty time one of the lowest you have ever experienced ? Where have you been flying before? Nigeria ? Iran?
80hrs 198 duty In March
80hrs 198 duty In March
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Thanks for you “enlightening” commentary up there, Sunliner; almost had me a good laugh here; and you saying you had “no problem” with the Vietnamese Culture in the Aviation business for me only means you were either legless all the time, as lazy or even as incompetent as the majority of them; either way, you must have flown in VNA a long time ago or you’re not familiar at all with the Workhorse (A321) Fleet. But, good for you, makes me feel resentful, almost! I have to deal with those apathetic, benighted, insolent primates on a daily basis...
So, sketchy rumors are coming out day by day about an event that supposedly occurred last month up North in Ha Noi involving a very capable Russian Captain and an imbecile local FO; turns out that following VNA SOP, as much as management and Instructors say will protect you always, actually does not. And why is this not mentioned in the monthly safety briefing? Is it that much of an embarrassment to the locals?
So, mentioned Russian Captain, Pilot Flying, with Local (Vietnamese) FO who does as SOP dictates, “the walk around”; plane takes off and ends up returning to departure Airport because incompetent FO did not see that the Static Ports were still covered up. Personally I don’t think he went to do the walk around, he went for a smoke somewhere. And it doesn’t end there…
CAAV comes in, and hand in hand with VNA, instead of praising the Captain for brining a broken bird back in one piece (experts here know how many Jets crashed due to Static Ports blocked) they actually SUSPEND the Fella! For two months! Congrats!
In ANY other company he would have gotten a medal; not here! Here that gets you 2 months unpaid leave!
That was at the beginning of April; its almost the end of May, and managers are still debating what in their miraculous SOP’s they should change to make flying at VNA safer; well, if one of you Management Turds is reading this, I highly recommend taking some of the inputs from Expatriats serious! Some of us actually got quite a bit of experience in this **** but as you’re either too proud to admit your own failures or too busy covering up all the daily crap of your incompetent local pilots; that must take quite a lot of time away from developing no-nonsense and common-sense SOP’s for your fleets! This kind of incompetent managerial behavior only leads to utter lack of credibility in your abilities from your peers, that is if there is actually any at all there anymore! Bloody hell, you would actually kill people and STILL believe VNA is a safe, competent and coordinated airline.
Once again, if you are employed, go somewhere better; if you have no other choice, I’d recommend anyone but this outfit!
Good luck!
So, sketchy rumors are coming out day by day about an event that supposedly occurred last month up North in Ha Noi involving a very capable Russian Captain and an imbecile local FO; turns out that following VNA SOP, as much as management and Instructors say will protect you always, actually does not. And why is this not mentioned in the monthly safety briefing? Is it that much of an embarrassment to the locals?
So, mentioned Russian Captain, Pilot Flying, with Local (Vietnamese) FO who does as SOP dictates, “the walk around”; plane takes off and ends up returning to departure Airport because incompetent FO did not see that the Static Ports were still covered up. Personally I don’t think he went to do the walk around, he went for a smoke somewhere. And it doesn’t end there…
CAAV comes in, and hand in hand with VNA, instead of praising the Captain for brining a broken bird back in one piece (experts here know how many Jets crashed due to Static Ports blocked) they actually SUSPEND the Fella! For two months! Congrats!
In ANY other company he would have gotten a medal; not here! Here that gets you 2 months unpaid leave!
That was at the beginning of April; its almost the end of May, and managers are still debating what in their miraculous SOP’s they should change to make flying at VNA safer; well, if one of you Management Turds is reading this, I highly recommend taking some of the inputs from Expatriats serious! Some of us actually got quite a bit of experience in this **** but as you’re either too proud to admit your own failures or too busy covering up all the daily crap of your incompetent local pilots; that must take quite a lot of time away from developing no-nonsense and common-sense SOP’s for your fleets! This kind of incompetent managerial behavior only leads to utter lack of credibility in your abilities from your peers, that is if there is actually any at all there anymore! Bloody hell, you would actually kill people and STILL believe VNA is a safe, competent and coordinated airline.
Once again, if you are employed, go somewhere better; if you have no other choice, I’d recommend anyone but this outfit!
Good luck!
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Thanks for you “enlightening” commentary up there, Sunliner; almost had me a good laugh here; and you saying you had “no problem” with the Vietnamese Culture in the Aviation business for me only means you were either legless all the time, as lazy or even as incompetent as the majority of them; either way, you must have flown in VNA a long time ago or you’re not familiar at all with the Workhorse (A321) Fleet. But, good for you, makes me feel resentful, almost! I have to deal with those apathetic, benighted, insolent primates on a daily basis...
So, sketchy rumors are coming out day by day about an event that supposedly occurred last month up North in Ha Noi involving a very capable Russian Captain and an imbecile local FO; turns out that following VNA SOP, as much as management and Instructors say will protect you always, actually does not. And why is this not mentioned in the monthly safety briefing? Is it that much of an embarrassment to the locals?
So, mentioned Russian Captain, Pilot Flying, with Local (Vietnamese) FO who does as SOP dictates, “the walk around”; plane takes off and ends up returning to departure Airport because incompetent FO did not see that the Static Ports were still covered up. Personally I don’t think he went to do the walk around, he went for a smoke somewhere. And it doesn’t end there…
CAAV comes in, and hand in hand with VNA, instead of praising the Captain for brining a broken bird back in one piece (experts here know how many Jets crashed due to Static Ports blocked) they actually SUSPEND the Fella! For two months! Congrats!
In ANY other company he would have gotten a medal; not here! Here that gets you 2 months unpaid leave!
That was at the beginning of April; its almost the end of May, and managers are still debating what in their miraculous SOP’s they should change to make flying at VNA safer; well, if one of you Management Turds is reading this, I highly recommend taking some of the inputs from Expatriats serious! Some of us actually got quite a bit of experience in this **** but as you’re either too proud to admit your own failures or too busy covering up all the daily crap of your incompetent local pilots; that must take quite a lot of time away from developing no-nonsense and common-sense SOP’s for your fleets! This kind of incompetent managerial behavior only leads to utter lack of credibility in your abilities from your peers, that is if there is actually any at all there anymore! Bloody hell, you would actually kill people and STILL believe VNA is a safe, competent and coordinated airline.
Once again, if you are employed, go somewhere better; if you have no other choice, I’d recommend anyone but this outfit!
Good luck!
So, sketchy rumors are coming out day by day about an event that supposedly occurred last month up North in Ha Noi involving a very capable Russian Captain and an imbecile local FO; turns out that following VNA SOP, as much as management and Instructors say will protect you always, actually does not. And why is this not mentioned in the monthly safety briefing? Is it that much of an embarrassment to the locals?
So, mentioned Russian Captain, Pilot Flying, with Local (Vietnamese) FO who does as SOP dictates, “the walk around”; plane takes off and ends up returning to departure Airport because incompetent FO did not see that the Static Ports were still covered up. Personally I don’t think he went to do the walk around, he went for a smoke somewhere. And it doesn’t end there…
CAAV comes in, and hand in hand with VNA, instead of praising the Captain for brining a broken bird back in one piece (experts here know how many Jets crashed due to Static Ports blocked) they actually SUSPEND the Fella! For two months! Congrats!
In ANY other company he would have gotten a medal; not here! Here that gets you 2 months unpaid leave!
That was at the beginning of April; its almost the end of May, and managers are still debating what in their miraculous SOP’s they should change to make flying at VNA safer; well, if one of you Management Turds is reading this, I highly recommend taking some of the inputs from Expatriats serious! Some of us actually got quite a bit of experience in this **** but as you’re either too proud to admit your own failures or too busy covering up all the daily crap of your incompetent local pilots; that must take quite a lot of time away from developing no-nonsense and common-sense SOP’s for your fleets! This kind of incompetent managerial behavior only leads to utter lack of credibility in your abilities from your peers, that is if there is actually any at all there anymore! Bloody hell, you would actually kill people and STILL believe VNA is a safe, competent and coordinated airline.
Once again, if you are employed, go somewhere better; if you have no other choice, I’d recommend anyone but this outfit!
Good luck!
So if you arrive at the aircraft for its first flight, technically speaking the Captain should check the covers are removed, as he has to check in the cockpit prep if PF and respond to the checklist as CM1. He is responsible for the covers. Not the rest of the walkaround, as has been upheld by VNA when subsequent issues have come up.
Also the Captain is responsible at all times, hence the title.
Anyway sounds like you are just trying to stir up trouble. Its actually grounds for dismissal. I cant see any benefit to be gained by so much slander.
Last edited by ia1166; 25th May 2017 at 00:23.
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While i am about it, please enlighten me to
1 how many jets have crashed with a static port covered? I cant recall any. Pitot maybe. 1 static port, whilst not being ideal, is certainly not life threatening.
2 what medal would any other airline award a pilot for such actions? I dont know of any such medals being awarded to civil pilots, or military.
Your e mail is pretty offensive. I have my doubts that you are who you say.
1 how many jets have crashed with a static port covered? I cant recall any. Pitot maybe. 1 static port, whilst not being ideal, is certainly not life threatening.
2 what medal would any other airline award a pilot for such actions? I dont know of any such medals being awarded to civil pilots, or military.
Your e mail is pretty offensive. I have my doubts that you are who you say.
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Dear IA1166
SOP FCOM PRO-NOR-SOP04 P9/10 states
GEAR PINS AND COVERS ....CHECK ONBOARD AND STOWED / Check that three are on board and stowed.
Three - that's for nose, and 2 mailn gears. If that would presume checking static anp pitot covers the number of items would be different.
VNA SOP does not have anything on the matter so we follow FCOM right?
VNA SOP p209
If PIC is PF, when time permits, PIC shall undertake additional outside check if needed.
So basically I don't see any need for extra check if everuthing is normal. Yes if F/O reports something abnormal. But F/O didn't report abnormalities in that incident?
Yes the Captain is responsible for everything. But that is based on the assumption that other specialists handling the flight are competent and responsible.
If neither F/O doesn't see covered static, nor mechanic, why do you blame Cpt?
Or you suggest to act on the assumption that all specialists around are complete idiots?
If by CAAV Air reg walk around is mandatory for Capt, and by SOP not - it's a fault of the SOP.
If VNA issues a notice asking not to use/look at mobile phones during walkaround, it's a fault of the airline.
If you say local pilots accurately follow SOP... LOL
Too much emotions on the forum.
I just don't like when the facts are distorted.
SOP FCOM PRO-NOR-SOP04 P9/10 states
GEAR PINS AND COVERS ....CHECK ONBOARD AND STOWED / Check that three are on board and stowed.
Three - that's for nose, and 2 mailn gears. If that would presume checking static anp pitot covers the number of items would be different.
VNA SOP does not have anything on the matter so we follow FCOM right?
VNA SOP p209
If PIC is PF, when time permits, PIC shall undertake additional outside check if needed.
So basically I don't see any need for extra check if everuthing is normal. Yes if F/O reports something abnormal. But F/O didn't report abnormalities in that incident?
Yes the Captain is responsible for everything. But that is based on the assumption that other specialists handling the flight are competent and responsible.
If neither F/O doesn't see covered static, nor mechanic, why do you blame Cpt?
Or you suggest to act on the assumption that all specialists around are complete idiots?
If by CAAV Air reg walk around is mandatory for Capt, and by SOP not - it's a fault of the SOP.
If VNA issues a notice asking not to use/look at mobile phones during walkaround, it's a fault of the airline.
If you say local pilots accurately follow SOP... LOL
Too much emotions on the forum.
I just don't like when the facts are distorted.
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You could enlighten us as to how your parking issue is going.
While i am about it, please enlighten me to
1 how many jets have crashed with a static port covered? I cant recall any. Pitot maybe. 1 static port, whilst not being ideal, is certainly not life threatening.
2 what medal would any other airline award a pilot for such actions? I dont know of any such medals being awarded to civil pilots, or military.
Your e mail is pretty offensive. I have my doubts that you are who you say.
1 how many jets have crashed with a static port covered? I cant recall any. Pitot maybe. 1 static port, whilst not being ideal, is certainly not life threatening.
2 what medal would any other airline award a pilot for such actions? I dont know of any such medals being awarded to civil pilots, or military.
Your e mail is pretty offensive. I have my doubts that you are who you say.
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I see that, unlike me, you've been pretty active on pprune for a while, thats great!
Slander might be a little far fetched, but yeah, blowing off steam and venting disappointing facts, you got me; guilty as charged!
But one thing you might not be completely aware of, pprune is actually a place where people, unlike in our labor-culture-divergence-paradime, CAN voice their opinions without the fear of threat or retaliation. So, if you are sensitive enough to actually feel offended, well, I must have hit a nerve then... oh well...
I believe this thread is for outside pilots who are thinking hard about career and life changes, and my opinion is actually just about THAT.
Also, no need to threaten me with "dismissal" (yes, that is what VNA is really good at, right? All threats, no improvements; long live socialism!) besides being fairly anonimous here, I also use several VPNs, so good luck. AND, yes, I already turned in my resignation a few weeks ago, so you can get your blood pressure under control again; sure
you can go ahead and wish me the best and tell everyone how much you will miss me... 
Kodiak got my drift though; thanks! So, in your opinion, it was "only" the Static Port!! Great, but did you actually ask yourself "what will it be next time", perhaps? But, please admit at least, that VNA does not have a preventative safety management system or even a safety oriented culture. Its operating philosophy is that of threats and punishment, and as far as I was made aware of a few weeks ago, making elaborated safety reports and recommendations are actually frowned upon (perhaps it makes them feel inferior, or something, I don't know). But fact is, locals are treated a LOT different in this airline than Expatriates, or do you deny that, too? I suggest you should stop by one of those very entertaining safety meetings one day, which I am sure you already have... you would you like to comment on one of those, perhaps?
By the way, are you aware a Level 3 event for an Expat is also a "dismissible" offense (not just slandering on Pprune
) while the local pilot pays around US$300 to make it "go away"? A very nice Vietnamese Captain actually confirmed that to me (don't expect me to name him here!).Now, I'm not sure what Bus Junkie was asking about the parking issue, but... 🤔
Oh, and one more thing: "giving someone a medal" is a metaphor; a figure of speech; an analogy, its origin being from the philosophy of rhetoric. Its like giving someone a "high five"; a pat on the back, a "thumbs up"; a "good job, mate"; I'd suggest a little Shakespeare to lighten up the day, perhaps?
But I'm not here to provide you with English lessons; you seem to manage that on your own pretty well.
So, purely as a rhetorical question to you, IA, why do you really feel offended?
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Local Captain suspended
Can anyone confirm that a local VNA captain was suspended for throwing a drunk pax off a flight? Allegedly, he was advised by cabin crew that he stank of alcohol and needed to be helped up the stairs. This drunk pax just happened to be some mate of a mate in upper management!
Apparently, he was told by management that he didn't know his role as a captain whilst the doors were open. This can't be true?!? Sounds like he was just doing his job as a captain because ground staff didn't do theirs.
If true, who would want to work under such conditions when management won't back a Captain for looking after the crew and remaining pax on a flight.
Surely this can't be true?
Apparently, he was told by management that he didn't know his role as a captain whilst the doors were open. This can't be true?!? Sounds like he was just doing his job as a captain because ground staff didn't do theirs.
If true, who would want to work under such conditions when management won't back a Captain for looking after the crew and remaining pax on a flight.
Surely this can't be true?
