Korean Air Expat Contract
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Korean Air Expat Contract
A word of advise for those interested in this contract. The working conditions are less than attractive as mentioned by the contract agencies. This is why KAL is having trouble retaining and recruiting Pilots.
The $$$s have not been updated in the last 7 years and with the value of the USD weakening daily against most of the currencies
there is no protection against currency exchange in the contract.
There is a rumour that the company is considering raising the salaries in all fleets so they can keep their pilots and interest more applicants. I believe when I see it!
Once you join, the training you will receive will puzzle the most avid and intelligent aviator. Very inmature local Instructors on check mode will demand knowledge of nice to know things and will take you on a trip of guilt and humilliation. They will love to see you lower your head and admit how great they are. Pretty sad.
Rosters are built in an unfair way compared to the local Pilots with no credit for positioning, scheduled flying time over 100 hrs and not getting full credit on it when more than 2 pilots are on board. No overtime is paid even though you work over the 75 hour production limit.
Now about the honesty of the employer....the contract is violated continuosly depending in who and how it is interpreted. It is a cultural thing.
About the people joining as F/Os.... I can not believe there is anybody wanting to go through this experience. Local Captains will give them a quick course on the Korean culture.
The real story has to be told!
The $$$s have not been updated in the last 7 years and with the value of the USD weakening daily against most of the currencies
there is no protection against currency exchange in the contract.
There is a rumour that the company is considering raising the salaries in all fleets so they can keep their pilots and interest more applicants. I believe when I see it!
Once you join, the training you will receive will puzzle the most avid and intelligent aviator. Very inmature local Instructors on check mode will demand knowledge of nice to know things and will take you on a trip of guilt and humilliation. They will love to see you lower your head and admit how great they are. Pretty sad.
Rosters are built in an unfair way compared to the local Pilots with no credit for positioning, scheduled flying time over 100 hrs and not getting full credit on it when more than 2 pilots are on board. No overtime is paid even though you work over the 75 hour production limit.
Now about the honesty of the employer....the contract is violated continuosly depending in who and how it is interpreted. It is a cultural thing.
About the people joining as F/Os.... I can not believe there is anybody wanting to go through this experience. Local Captains will give them a quick course on the Korean culture.
The real story has to be told!
Last edited by Poster; 30th Jul 2007 at 08:04.
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Interesting post, I am guessing you are speaking from experience, you are the first person I have heard complain about Korean for some time. How exactly are they violating your contract, are you a captain or an F/O.
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Seems a little like sour grapes. Talking from 7 years experience, your post sounds typical of those who come here expecting KAL to be your typical NWA or Polar or Atlas. Of course, it's not and those who come thinking it is, are usually in for a hard time.
KAL having a hard time retaining pilots??? Mostly the only ones leaving are the Canadians who are affected by the new tax regulations coming into effect next year.
There are always two sides to the story...
KAL having a hard time retaining pilots??? Mostly the only ones leaving are the Canadians who are affected by the new tax regulations coming into effect next year.
There are always two sides to the story...
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KAL having a hard time retaining pilots??? Mostly the only ones leaving are the Canadians who are affected by the new tax regulations coming into effect next year.
Korean Air is losing pilots and they are worried about it.
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ELAC is correct....KAL is having problems retaining and attracting Pilots. The purpose of the post is to make people aware that the job is not what the contract agencies are advertising.
Things will not change while there is people like FGK at KAL, who keep their pink sunglasses on and takes the abuse and the lack of respect in reverse gear with the gate open. Sour grapes? I don't think so...prefer the Merlot or Shiraz.
Things will not change while there is people like FGK at KAL, who keep their pink sunglasses on and takes the abuse and the lack of respect in reverse gear with the gate open. Sour grapes? I don't think so...prefer the Merlot or Shiraz.
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any specifics???
of course without names and phone numbers---
but the only proper way to evaluate is to hear some specifics.
the contract i have received to consider, does not address the exact flight schedules, routes etc. so i can't really expect a proper roster like we have now in the UK.
i was with asiana 96-98 and yes, one must learn to say, "thank you very muchee. i didn't know that" and the actual flight rosters were a bit sporatic, but nothing very hard to deal with, (i was on the 737). quite a few over nights, with pretty minimum rest but the food was good and free.
as far as immature instructors/checkmen---i have seen those in the USA,Belgium and now the UK. there appears to be a constant percentage of "weeds" among the flowers.
i received an "A" rating from one Korean checker and next time i received a "C" with comments written in Korean on the check form. and i have had the same range from US,BEL and UK checkers.
and as for the pilots we flew with, the same--many are genuinely glad to meet you and fly with you whilst others let you know in no uncertain terms, that they wished you were not there. funny i had the same in the US,BEL and now in the UK.
they do indeed appear to be very interested in getting pilots to come over there, even on the 737.
i would be curious to know if any Koreans could come on here and tell us what they know about the present situation.
but the only proper way to evaluate is to hear some specifics.
the contract i have received to consider, does not address the exact flight schedules, routes etc. so i can't really expect a proper roster like we have now in the UK.
i was with asiana 96-98 and yes, one must learn to say, "thank you very muchee. i didn't know that" and the actual flight rosters were a bit sporatic, but nothing very hard to deal with, (i was on the 737). quite a few over nights, with pretty minimum rest but the food was good and free.
as far as immature instructors/checkmen---i have seen those in the USA,Belgium and now the UK. there appears to be a constant percentage of "weeds" among the flowers.
i received an "A" rating from one Korean checker and next time i received a "C" with comments written in Korean on the check form. and i have had the same range from US,BEL and UK checkers.
and as for the pilots we flew with, the same--many are genuinely glad to meet you and fly with you whilst others let you know in no uncertain terms, that they wished you were not there. funny i had the same in the US,BEL and now in the UK.
they do indeed appear to be very interested in getting pilots to come over there, even on the 737.
i would be curious to know if any Koreans could come on here and tell us what they know about the present situation.
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Korean Airlines interview
I'm invited for interview for the NG throught CCL by end of August
, anyone have any idea how is it look like their Medical, Simulator and interview
please give/share the information I need the job
, anyone have any idea how is it look like their Medical, Simulator and interview please give/share the information I need the job
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sim/interview---
you should be able to get some charts from CCL-
study them and you will see that the VOR approach requires a rather steep descent close in, so if you simply think ahead, configure early on the downwind leg, get fully configured early, so that with the steep descent, you will not get a config induced sink rate warning, otherwise, it is a piece of cake.
then they will have an engine failure, simply comply with the headings, level offs etc. and the usual go around etc...nothing that is not in the boeing FCTM.
then they will ask you for a close in visual approach, just like given in the boeing FCTM, 2 miles abeam, etc. my first visual was a long stretched out affair, aiming to turn in at the marker, since most airlines never want to see you do a short close in visual. they stopped the sim, and told me i needed to do a close in. so we tried it again and made it though not a pretty sight. but i always had control of the aircraft. and that's whats they are really looking for. if you are going to err, make it on the side of safety.
they will ask you to bring your own QRH and use your SOP's--and they most likely are very similar world wide. but with little quirks here and there and different verbage at various times.
the interview was alone in front of 5, (i think) one american and the others Koreans. very stern looking, but don't let that scare you. be open and communicate clearly. a question about QNH and QNE--i really can't remember. but a no brainer really. (their transition altitude is 14000 feet, but that wasn't the question) a question or two about CRM, how would you get along with Korean culture, etc, your flying experience, why did you leave so and so, why do you want to come here and eat funny food---(i really like some of their food) etc. must have lasted all of 5 to 10 minutes. when in rome, do as the romans---be courteous and respect the positions of the individuals involved. do not be artificial.
my father taught me a long time ago with the back of his hand, to respect the position, in spite of your attitude toward the individual in the position. and i really haven't found any reason to change that perspective. and i suppose, i'm gullible enough to assume that the one in any position deserves my respect until they prove otherwise. that goes for checkairmen, (especially when they are holding the ink pen and the check form), and all the way up the ladder to a prostitute.
the medical is an all day affair and that is where the fall out usually occurs. they test things that you didn't know you had. and use machines that you will not seen anywhere else. the peripheral vision test is the most difficult thing i have done--in staying awake and keeping your eye open. never seen it except in Korea.
then they take a photo of the back of your eye with a light so bright you can feel it hit the back of your eye and you are blind for a couple of weeks!!! ha.
they take blood and poke things, sonogram, ears, eyes to the tenth power. urine, and you have to be hungry!!!!
you either make the medical or not. all westerners have high cholesterol (sp)
and have one foot in the grave, are overweight etc---so the only thing you could do is lose some weight and don't eat anything you enjoy for a few weeks before the tests!!!!
that is the one downer about the whole affair to my mind, that in house Korean medical every six months!!!
i am still debating with myself as to whether i will actually go there or not.
when you go, and are in the hotel, order the "beebimbap" and be sure to tell them to put the hot sauce in a separate dish so that you can control how much flame will be coming out through your ears!!! a delicious dish. but DO NOT ORDER IT ON THE AIRCRAFT on the way over!!!!
in my opinion, the Koreans have an ability to focus and a self discipline that deserves respect from anyone. look what they have accomplished after their country was entirely destroyed in the 50's in a struggle between the Russians and the americans which later included the Chinese. they are on the same level with all other countries in europe.
worth a try and if you look and listen, you will learn something and will be a better person for spending some time there.
study them and you will see that the VOR approach requires a rather steep descent close in, so if you simply think ahead, configure early on the downwind leg, get fully configured early, so that with the steep descent, you will not get a config induced sink rate warning, otherwise, it is a piece of cake.
then they will have an engine failure, simply comply with the headings, level offs etc. and the usual go around etc...nothing that is not in the boeing FCTM.
then they will ask you for a close in visual approach, just like given in the boeing FCTM, 2 miles abeam, etc. my first visual was a long stretched out affair, aiming to turn in at the marker, since most airlines never want to see you do a short close in visual. they stopped the sim, and told me i needed to do a close in. so we tried it again and made it though not a pretty sight. but i always had control of the aircraft. and that's whats they are really looking for. if you are going to err, make it on the side of safety.
they will ask you to bring your own QRH and use your SOP's--and they most likely are very similar world wide. but with little quirks here and there and different verbage at various times.
the interview was alone in front of 5, (i think) one american and the others Koreans. very stern looking, but don't let that scare you. be open and communicate clearly. a question about QNH and QNE--i really can't remember. but a no brainer really. (their transition altitude is 14000 feet, but that wasn't the question) a question or two about CRM, how would you get along with Korean culture, etc, your flying experience, why did you leave so and so, why do you want to come here and eat funny food---(i really like some of their food) etc. must have lasted all of 5 to 10 minutes. when in rome, do as the romans---be courteous and respect the positions of the individuals involved. do not be artificial.
my father taught me a long time ago with the back of his hand, to respect the position, in spite of your attitude toward the individual in the position. and i really haven't found any reason to change that perspective. and i suppose, i'm gullible enough to assume that the one in any position deserves my respect until they prove otherwise. that goes for checkairmen, (especially when they are holding the ink pen and the check form), and all the way up the ladder to a prostitute.
the medical is an all day affair and that is where the fall out usually occurs. they test things that you didn't know you had. and use machines that you will not seen anywhere else. the peripheral vision test is the most difficult thing i have done--in staying awake and keeping your eye open. never seen it except in Korea.
then they take a photo of the back of your eye with a light so bright you can feel it hit the back of your eye and you are blind for a couple of weeks!!! ha.
they take blood and poke things, sonogram, ears, eyes to the tenth power. urine, and you have to be hungry!!!!
you either make the medical or not. all westerners have high cholesterol (sp)
and have one foot in the grave, are overweight etc---so the only thing you could do is lose some weight and don't eat anything you enjoy for a few weeks before the tests!!!!
that is the one downer about the whole affair to my mind, that in house Korean medical every six months!!!
i am still debating with myself as to whether i will actually go there or not.
when you go, and are in the hotel, order the "beebimbap" and be sure to tell them to put the hot sauce in a separate dish so that you can control how much flame will be coming out through your ears!!! a delicious dish. but DO NOT ORDER IT ON THE AIRCRAFT on the way over!!!!
in my opinion, the Koreans have an ability to focus and a self discipline that deserves respect from anyone. look what they have accomplished after their country was entirely destroyed in the 50's in a struggle between the Russians and the americans which later included the Chinese. they are on the same level with all other countries in europe.
worth a try and if you look and listen, you will learn something and will be a better person for spending some time there.
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Korean Airlines Interview
stator vane, THANKS YOU !!! for the info, it will for sure a lot of help for mehope I will made it, are with them now??? CCL haven't give me the chart but only the profile, I will ask them again THANKS A LOT
hope I will made it, are with them now??? CCL haven't give me the chart but only the profile, I will ask them again THANKS A LOT
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speedtwoten ...
Take it from someone who knows ... if you don't like the way you are treated in India you aren't going to last 6 months in Korea.
ELAC
Take it from someone who knows ... if you don't like the way you are treated in India you aren't going to last 6 months in Korea.
ELAC
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Korean Airlines interview
so, ELAC tell me whats the problems with Korea???
, I'm still here in my home, India is too far away to fly there after information that I got from many friends flying there it is too riski 
the only choice Jet Airways or Spice Jet, which manage by expats, not locals
Rough Rider ask the same question
, I'm still here in my home, India is too far away to fly there after information that I got from many friends flying there it is too riski the only choice Jet Airways or Spice Jet, which manage by expats, not localsRough Rider ask the same question
Last edited by speedtwoten; 18th Aug 2007 at 13:12. Reason: more words
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speedtwoten ...
I can't speak for whichever airline you may have had experience of in India but in general you will be treated with far more courtesy and respect by your employer, your coworkers, and people in general in India than is the case in Korea.
Both countries have their safety problems so you will be no further ahead there, though the Korean's will seem more organized about it at first. Once you appreciate the nature of the beast you will find as much to worry about in Korea as in India.
In Korea your roster will be much less subject to change than in India ... to the point that it is set in concrete. Do not ever expect it to change in response to a personal need as the concept of flexibility does not really exist at Korean Air.
Any place can be what you choose to make of it, but having watched expats adapt in both Korea and India and having done so in both places myself I can tell you that Korea is by far the less pleasant and less tolerant of the two. If you find yourself complaining about life as an expat in India, the odds are you will find yourself truly miserable in Korea.
ELAC
I can't speak for whichever airline you may have had experience of in India but in general you will be treated with far more courtesy and respect by your employer, your coworkers, and people in general in India than is the case in Korea.
Both countries have their safety problems so you will be no further ahead there, though the Korean's will seem more organized about it at first. Once you appreciate the nature of the beast you will find as much to worry about in Korea as in India.
In Korea your roster will be much less subject to change than in India ... to the point that it is set in concrete. Do not ever expect it to change in response to a personal need as the concept of flexibility does not really exist at Korean Air.
Any place can be what you choose to make of it, but having watched expats adapt in both Korea and India and having done so in both places myself I can tell you that Korea is by far the less pleasant and less tolerant of the two. If you find yourself complaining about life as an expat in India, the odds are you will find yourself truly miserable in Korea.
ELAC
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ELAC, thanks I will think about it
, but one thing's sure in the otherside if you ever in India then I believe you will regret it
, all expats who's been with the airline (Air Sahara/Jet Lite) I worked they all leave
, but one thing's sure in the otherside if you ever in India then I believe you will regret it, all expats who's been with the airline (Air Sahara/Jet Lite) I worked they all leave
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speedtwoten ...
I am in India, though not working for Air Sahara/Jet Lite. I have no regrets here and wouldn't consider a return to Korea for a second.
ELAC
I am in India, though not working for Air Sahara/Jet Lite. I have no regrets here and wouldn't consider a return to Korea for a second.
ELAC
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Thats fine, if you like it, but you must working with Spice or Jet Airways, as your rating concern B737 so they all manage by expats
but if you looking surrounding you could you image if you are manage by them
but if you looking surrounding you could you image if you are manage by them
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In the company I work for I've had no particular problem with managers of either Indian or expat origin. Every place has its culture and there is a particular flavour to the way things get done in India, but it is nothing, and I do mean absolutely nothing, when compared to the way things are managed in Korea.
In Korea it will often take an eternity for a decision to be made simply because no one wishes to be held responsible for making a decision in the first place. If and when a decision is made, regardless of the logic of the decision, that decision will stand forever and will not change. Changing a decision in Korea is not viewed as an adjustment to meet practical reality but rather an admission of error with an accompanying loss of face. And that, my friend, is something that a Korean manager will avoid at all costs, including the termination of your job if that happens to be the most expedient way to solve the problem.
I'm sure there are plenty of better places in the world to hang your hat than in India with Sahara/Jet Lite. All I can tell you is that it's pretty long odds that Korean Air is one of those places.
ELAC
In Korea it will often take an eternity for a decision to be made simply because no one wishes to be held responsible for making a decision in the first place. If and when a decision is made, regardless of the logic of the decision, that decision will stand forever and will not change. Changing a decision in Korea is not viewed as an adjustment to meet practical reality but rather an admission of error with an accompanying loss of face. And that, my friend, is something that a Korean manager will avoid at all costs, including the termination of your job if that happens to be the most expedient way to solve the problem.
I'm sure there are plenty of better places in the world to hang your hat than in India with Sahara/Jet Lite. All I can tell you is that it's pretty long odds that Korean Air is one of those places.
ELAC
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Just a personal opinion, but based on the impression I got of KAL, and feedback I have received from guys I know there - and others who went thru the selection process - I have decided not to join KAL.
But I do know people who are happy there.
But I do know people who are happy there.