Clark Institute of Aviation

[tbavprof]

fernadeztv,

Am I reading this correctly? You're a self-funded MPL candidate? Why?

At some point (like wanting to change aircraft, air carrier, or upgrade to captain) you'll have to break down and spend the money to get a CPL or ATPL. And the first Euro MPL's are now indefinitely furloughed...with no other flying work even available to them because of their qualifications.

If I wanted to fly the big shiny ones, and was willing to put up with 10 years of indentured servitude for a carrier where I knew I could go for 10 years without a layoff, the MPL might be an attractive option. But the push behind the license was as a benefit to airlines, not to aviation and aviators.

If you're doing it for yourself, and paying for it yourself, you're being ripped off. If it's a matter of initial training costs, you can get better value for your money (meaning more usable credentials) elsewhere, as has been pointed out.

And while you had a nice list of where the MPL is beginning to pop up, you're being a bit naive to assume that it is being introduced because its a good idea and there are no other motives. Remember, the guy in charge of that bright shiny still has to hold an ATP. An MPL with 20,000 hours (19,850 on type) still doesn't qualify you to act as pilot in command.

[fernandeztv]

tbavprof...you are right in many ways but as to your question regarding as to why i am a self funded cadet is simply because i wanted to try MPL instead of a CPL...period (No matter what the cost). I did not wake up one day and decide that i wanted to be an airline pilot. Nor did i come to clark aviation because of any agent!

I was bitten by the aviation bug right since i was a kid but my parents never had the financial ability or willingness to send their only child into what they deemed as a dangerous job . (Mom, Dad..I love you ) BUt they did let me do whatever it took to keep my interest alive. The only way i could keep in touch with the field was to hang around airfields, airports and get whatever information i could. I also borrowed/bought reading material right from coffee table books to Operation manuals, FCOMs from friends/well wishers. After 2 years in Army reserve, I made it to the Indian Air Force selections but because i had an Engineering Degree I could not make it to the flying cadre as that was reserved for cadets without a degree and for those who joined the selection process before they started college...age limits etc etc.
To cut a long story short...i had to work to pay for my flying lessons and i first came acorss MPL in 2004 (YES repeat 2004) That was the time i belonged to/moderated a pretty big Aviation internet community back in India.

I have a lot of friends who in 2004 started their CPL training and most of them are now flying for Indian Carriers. You have to understand that GenAV is almost non existant in India. Unlike here in the Philippines, India is well connected by Roads and Railways ...eliminating Gen Av flying...and if it ever existed it was for the ultra rich.
So..back in India airlines were recruiting fresh CPL holders with as little as 250 hrs of flying and a minimum 25 hrs of Multi time. (of which 10 can be in any approved sim). None of my friends who joined Indian Carriers have more than 300 hrs at the time of joining. (except one who extensively flew Gen Av in the US) Most of them had a tough time during the type rating. That is when MPL came up. Purely from an Indian perspective and operating conditions...MPL seemed a better way to train for an airline...considering the fact that the aircrafts in question were A320 and B737NG and not the earlier generation types like DC9, MD 80, B727-200Adv or B737-200 etc. The pilot of a current generation aircraft is more of a manager than a pilot used to flying a C172. The Cessna is such an honest aircraft you want to lose altitude fast ...just chop power and pitch down slightly....can i do the same on an A320?

Feb 14th 1990 an A320 crashed in Bangalore killing 92 people. Both the pilots were captains with more than 30000 hrs put together. Only one hitch...almost all that time was on the B737-200 which was the earlier type operated by Indian Airlines. (actually that was the first time i ever saw an A320...still remember that day!) It was blamed on improper training of the pilots...but its also a well known human factor that you usually regress to your old way of flying. Many of my friends had trouble in the SIM sessions coz they could not get out of the mindset of single eng flying. leave alone jets..MCC...hahaha that was a big joke. It is as if that one has to "unlearn" most of the flying techniques when learning a new type.

By the way i dont know who started this disinformation campaign that an MPL holder can never be PIC! ofcourse when the 1500 hr comes we too are eligible for the ATP LIKE ANY OTHER CPL HOLDER! Dont take my word! Get it checked with ICAO! (i did it...as is said i did not just wake up one day to any ad for the MPL ) What we are not eligible to do is ...ummm take your GF or Wife or friends around in a C172 for a joyride. Now that is a personal choice. If i wanted GEnAV trust me i would have done a CPL. (Actually there is nothing stopping me from doing a CPL even after i get my MPL )

Now Why Clark Aviation? Well well well...i never even dreamed of the fact that i would end up doing MPL! the very thing that i had been tracking fora long long time. After a lot of debates/information exchange with seasoned pilots and well known aviators back in India...i decided to join Calrk Av. Why? Coz both Alteon and CAP (Denmark) were not taking in any self sponsored cadets. And they were not taking any Indians either.

Now the idea was that we eventually go to work with Indian Carriers...but unfortunately the DGCA (whenever someone says ATO is so slow....pls come to DGCA India...ATO/CAAP seems so fast! DO you know that one can appear for the CPL written exams only 4 times a year back in India? For an initial issue of a Class 1 medical examination date i had to wiat for 7 months! Should give you an Idea of how DGCA works)...ok the DGCA of india is dragging its feet on MPL because of reasons which i dont wish to elaborate as it is of no concern to the people reading this thread!

Last but not the least. I earned every penny/paisa of the tution fee that i paid to CA(i did not borrow from the banks or my parents)...so I think as an individual i have every right to invest my money as i deem it fit. I am happy with what is going on right now. I am happy with my training so far except for the fact that i got delayed...but then if everything happened as one wants it to...we can as well be in heaven!

The obvious next question i know people will throw at me is ...so what are you going to do with your license ...you dont have an airline! Now that is an answer which i will not answer now. I will post updates here as and when they happen. Not before . If at all anyone in CA should be worried it should be ME. But i am just going ahead with my training. Why get stressed with things beyond your control. There are others to take care of it!

Somebody thinks i got ripped off?....time will tell. Till then...safe flt to all. Keep the blue side up.

Cheers...

[funnydaytoday2]

fernandeztv

You are not only a true scholar but a gentlemen in every sence of the way. And before anything else i do appologise for any of my colleagues racist remarks.. as you can see by my posts i have never stooped so low.
let me inlighten you on one thing, I have no problem with CA, As a student i want nothing but the best for CA to work.. Its this lack of information in the air everytime i walk out my dorm that i dont seem to agree on... can you disagree on me there...exactly... there are no memo's or meetings or any type of interaction between the the cadets and this new management... So yes i do care to read your posts.. and am aware of the progress that has been made at CA, very positive to the cadets infront of me and you.. but as i recall these descision were made prior to the new mang coming over. they only fine tuned descisions that were already done by others..they still have alot to prove to us.
Ps I am in my IFR fase..
keep up the good posts
happy flying

[tbavprof]

Fernandeztv,

Best of luck to you. I understand where you're coming from. I trained several of those 300 hour FO's you had in India.

But, the problems you mentioned don't sound like they're derived from a "single-engine mindset." Sounds like piss-poor selection, and shoddy sim, LOFT, and CRM training. All understandable for an aviation market going from zero to huge in such a short time, with a regulatory body that has virtually no experience, and any warm body with a CPL could get an FO slot. You can get type-rated at any point (PPL or CPL) in coming up, but the standard for the type is still ATP standards. There aren't a lot of 50 hour or 250 hour pilots that fly to those standards consistently.

I think you better check Annex 1 again as far as your ATP goes. Special attention to the sections on "pilot in command" time required. Don't see how you can make that time if you can't act as PIC or log pilot-in-command time for anything but that 100 hours in the Cessna.

[lingsy]

funnyday2day. With your post, you just confirmed my suspicion that you are not a CA student/cadet. Why? You seemed to have missed the many memos, announcements, training schedules currently posted in the Flight Ops office board.

FYI, I belong to the lower batches of cadets due to report back in a few weeks to commence our IFR phase of the training, but despite our long vacation, we have been regularly updated by the new management of all the developments going on via e-mails and meetings. I would say that the present management is carrying out a pretty good job in putting back on track what the previous CA management "did" to the school.

Cheers mate!

[fernandeztv]

Give them a chance

Funnydaytoday2 thanks for your kind words! As i said i really dont care about the racist posts as i dont even know if the people who are posting them are cadets at all....

Anyway we as cadets have gone through repeated nightmares of inactivity and uncertainity. What matters now is that we definitely do have a clear path in front of us and it really is encouraging to see the progression of our cadets/friends in the upper batches. So lets just give the current management their fair chance...As many pointed out, there is still a lot to be done...but surely we are all moving forward now.

I tend to agree on the information part...we dont exactly have any centralised mechanism for it yet...we usually have to get it from the flt ops notice boards to check who is in what phase. It would be nice if there were bulletins regarding the progressions. (I have also raised this issue with them) But what does happen that we (course reps) have a meeting with the mgmt and usually i send the minutes as a detailled mail to my batchmates. till we have a central information distribution mechanism...i think i will just continue to do that.

Cheers....

[fernandeztv]

MPL to ATPL

@tbavprof....i have taken the following from the CAR released by ATO/CAAP on 23June2008.
taken from section

2.3.3.5 MULTI-CREW PILOT LICENSE (MPL)

2.3.3.5.2 REQUIREMENTS

(g)

Privileges. Subject to compliance with the requirements specified in this Part, the
privileges of the holder of an MPL shall be:
(1) (i) to exercise all the privileges of the holder of a private pilot license in the

appropriate airplane category provided the requirements have been met;

(ii) to exercise the privileges of the instrument rating in a multi-crew operation;
and
(iii) To act as co-pilot in an airplane required to be operated with a co-pilot.
(2) Before exercising the privileges of the instrument rating in a single pilot operation,
the license holder shall have demonstrated an ability to act as pilot-in-command in
a single pilot operation exercised solely by reference to instruments.
(3) Before exercising the privileges of a commercial pilot license in a single pilot
operation, the license holder shall have:
(i) completed 70 hours, either as pilot-in-command, or made up by not less than
10 hours as pilot-in-command and the necessary additional flight time as pilotin-
command under supervision;
(ii) meet the requirements for the commercial pilot license.
(3) Act as second-in-command/co-pilot in commercial air transportation in airplanes
required to be operated with a co-pilot by the type certificate of the aircraft or the
regulations under which the aircraft will be operated; and
(4) When the holder of an airline transport pilot license in the airplane category has
only previously held a MPL, the privileges of the license shall be limited to multicrew
operations unless the holder has met the requirements established. Any

limitation of privileges shall be endorsed on the license.

As made clear by point (4) an MPL holder can directly upgrade to an ATP.

Also from a purely logical point of view...why on earth would an airline invest on a life long copilot? That too 50+ of them?

Agreed that when ICAO approved of MPL in Nov 2006, it was not as if all the contracting states had integrated MPL into their systems! The implementation part was left to the contracting states...and it does take time for each state to implement the new type of license...which also happens to the first new type of license since WW II!

Before one puts something down totally (even before giving it a chance)just because the current gudelines do not have any provision, please atleast acknowledge that something different is being attempted...and it took ICAO 5 years to arrive at MPL. It will take some more time for the contracting states to fully implement it.

Way back in 2006 when the debate on MPL was going on in the Indian internet forums...the primary detractors for MPL turned out to be some well known FTO owners in India! Surprisingly some of the people in favour of MPL were the retired TRIs/TREs!

[tbavprof]

Still Not Clear

Fernandeztv,

Appreciate your DGAC post, but I'm not sure that it says what you claim it does. And I'm not saying anything about the thoroughness or appropriateness of the training methods, but about value received. But before we get into details, please think carefully about your question "...why on earth would an airline invest on a life long copilot? That too 50+ of them." If the idea of an entrapped, low-cost labor force doesn't thrill you, then you're thinking like a wannabe pilot, not like an airline executive.

Now to the details.

According to #1, you'll be able to exercise PPL privileges. You'll be able to exercise PPL/IR privileges only in a multi-crew operation. So, no renumeration, and no instrument work unless you have a similarly qualified crewmate, AND the operation requires a multi-crew. And you can exercise PPL privilege as co-pilot of an AIRCRAFT requiring a multi-crew (not the operation). Again, no money.

A PPL gives you the same privileges as 1(i) and 1 (iii). A PPL/IR removes the restriction for multi-crew operations.

How is #2's "demonstrated ability" verified? Checkride? Syllabus completion? Again, you've now matched the same privileges as a PPL/IR.

Number 3 is interesting. Okay, a minimum of an additional 10 hours, or 70 hours depending on your viewpoint. Take the low estimate. So you'll have to fund an additional 10 hours out-of-pocket anyways. Now, how does that additional "acting as PIC under supervision" get accumulated? Remember PF/PNF has nothing to do with PIC. So, at a minimum, you will have to gain the additional 60 hours under supervision in an AIRCRAFT and OPERATION authorized for single-pilot operations.

So you have now equaled the privileges of a CPL/IR, which includes

Act as second-in-command/co-pilot in commercial air transportation in airplanes
required to be operated with a co-pilot by the type certificate of the aircraft or the regulations under which the aircraft will be operated

.

And now to #4. You've conveniently ignored my suggestion that you look at the PIC times required for an ATPL. If there are any shortcut hours (and from the lack of inclusion in the regulation I'm betting there aren't any), the license would have to be endorsed "Does Not Meet ICAO Requirements", along with the limitations. This is the same endorsement many states issue when FE time is counted (generously) toward the required flight time.

So now, you have the privileges of an ATP, restricted to multicrew operations, WITHIN the issuing state.

And a strict reading of all this is even worse. For someone who has never held an CPL, the limitations cannot be removed without meeting the standard requirements for an ATPL. Again, all the same questions raised in number 3 rear their heads.

Once you meet the PIC requirements, then you'll have all the privileges of an ATP.

Again, the MPL may be a fast-track to the right seat of a bright, shiney airliner, but it's definitely the slow boat to an ATPL (except for the 1500 TT, where it's on a par with the JAA frozen ATPL).

Best of luck to you.

[skypilot66666]

jt/cbclark

is that you in_go

[skypilot66666]

cb/jtclark

what are you ding for a living, kaus trouble for everyone, wheres the admin they arent doing their jobs, this idiot mentions full names of people here, maybe this is MW.

regardless admin pls get on the ball and do your jobs cut these idots off this site.

[shellybeach]

Hes right

He did mention full names but fair enough, these 2 guys should be outed, they live off scams and poor filipinas, there main source of money is from girlie bars like the la cafe in maynila. Try and name 1 good thing they did at CA. The undesirable alien is the way to go, do CA and this fine country a big favour...just mt 10 cents worth...

[738FO]

fernandeztv ,

Yeah MPL go shortcuts on all the training. just remember "A good pilot is an Experienced pilot"


And by the way, im not advertising , its a suggestion. i sure hope you know the difference

[gilderoy lockhart]

All experienced pilots are not good pilots!

[fernandeztv]

@738FO My apologies if i sounded disrespectful. MPL is not all bout shortcuts as many do believe...but it will take time to prove ourselves on the line...for that we first have to graduate! Hope to share the skies with you some day....

Safe flt...Cheers..

[fernandeztv]

tbavprof I got you were trying say...reg the 100 hrs PIC req for an ATP. As of today the CAR for ATP has not been amended but rather only an additional section for MPL has been introduced into the CARs here in Philippines. I do sincerely believe that this is not the last time any amendment is made. But anyway right now the focus is on getting to graduate with the requisite skills! Still a long way to go for ATP. But again thanks for your insight into the issue.

[738FO]

Yeah all experienced pilots are not Good Pilots, i agree. but i would be more comfortable if the person on my right have thousand of hours and not hundreds. Woudnt you?

[738FO]

fernandeztv,

No harm done.

Goodluck with your flying career.

Good Speed and Safe Flying

[Spongebobsqpants]

738FO
Agreed. But there again, I'd also feel more comfortable if the person on my right had 15,000 hours, long blond hair, legs up to her armpits and black leather boots and 20 years old. We can all dream.

So where did you come from and how many hours do you have? I take it that your handle isn't illustrative of your experience, because if you are still an FO with thousands of hours then what went wrong?

[738FO]

lol Yeah I guess we can all dream of having a blonde chick on our right.

Nothing happend man, clocked about 600 pic ,1400 sic on the 738. Was on the CRJ9 before that due to the full roster on the 738. TT 3900+ , taking the left seat anytime next year. still need a couple of hundred hours more. Company needs at least 4500 tt and 750 pic on type to take over the left.

im stil on my late 20's. so nothing really went wrong.

[fernandeztv]

Was busy flying my aft end off...or waiting for a flt burning my aft end off at omni field (which actually happens more often! Our "Visiting Friendly Forces" over the past 2 weeks ensured that i got shooed off more often than not by the controllers either over the CIA station or over the CAB VOR) Well have another flt in the afternoon so i have to go off soon now!

HAd a nice experience the other day when the Clark controller cleared us to hold over CAB VOR at 4000 and when we were 10 DME from the station Fort MAg politely shooed us off saying that a C130 was paradroping in the vicinity. Then we were asked to monitor Approach freq as well as there was heavy traffic there and we were asked to keep a look out for a few F18s...and right then whoosh we saw a couple of them cut right in front of us from the starboard side to the port maybe abt 500 ft below! And we thought OK time to bug out!

Ok updates as far as i know...course A will graduate soon. Batch D has started MCC yesterday. OK me back to flying now...
Cheers....