Going to Massey's in NZ. Hopefully will join up with a local SG carrier. One problem.
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So regarding to my previous post. Can anyone give me suggestions on a better route to take?
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The issues you raise have been discussed to death on PPRuNe on the Wannabes section.
If you are too lazy to use the search engine then just Google "PPRuNe wannabe advice".
If you are too lazy to use the search engine then just Google "PPRuNe wannabe advice".
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Good info here
Hi Effee,
This thread has a lot of good info and advice from both self-sponsored pilots and those who have gone through the cadetship. http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...213914&page=10
Good Luck
This thread has a lot of good info and advice from both self-sponsored pilots and those who have gone through the cadetship. http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...213914&page=10
Good Luck
Thread Starter
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Hi, I've read the thread, and yes TI I did read the other threads concerning SIA before I posted.
I just have 1 more question, say I do not go to Massey, but attend a flying school while doing another degree in NZ. The licence is still not recognised by CAAS correct? It has to only come from Massey before it is recognised?
Also, regarding above. If a CPL taken in NZ or AU is not recognised by CAAS. A FAA licence would also not be recognised?
To sum it up, my question would be, it would not matter wherever you took your CPL licence. CAAS would still not recognise it. Also, is there any difference in what country you take your CPL in terms of employment and conversion.
I just have 1 more question, say I do not go to Massey, but attend a flying school while doing another degree in NZ. The licence is still not recognised by CAAS correct? It has to only come from Massey before it is recognised?
Also, regarding above. If a CPL taken in NZ or AU is not recognised by CAAS. A FAA licence would also not be recognised?
To sum it up, my question would be, it would not matter wherever you took your CPL licence. CAAS would still not recognise it. Also, is there any difference in what country you take your CPL in terms of employment and conversion.
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Time for a reality check, young man.
Some assumptions here. I take it that your first choice is to get into SIA as a cadet. All this planning to do your own fATPL / CPL with whoever / wherever, am I right to say that it is because you somehow think it will get you extra leverage to be selected, and maybe even come in at a more "senior" level?
Well, forget about short cutting their selection process and coming in any higher up the food chain - it just won't happen. At best you will come in at the Learjet phase and no further. NO direct Second Officer positions for fresh (250hr) fATPL / CPL holders, OK?
You are still too young to apply for SIA. So you don't know as yet if you are or are not cadet material. Can't you wait?
The facts are that there are about as many Massey boys in SIA as there are outside (meaning that they are jobless or in non-flying jobs). So in other words, after spending $150,000 it is still an even chance (50-50) that you may or may not get in. Now, with odds like that, why even bother?
If it was something like 90-10 that with a Massey title that you will be chosen, then it might be worth the gamble. And if you think that Massey paper will get you a management position in flight ops sometime down the road, you're dreaming. No such thing.
If you are so desperate to pay others to train you, why not try being a paying customer at Singapore Flying College (but you must of course be 26 or older)? So far they have had 4 private candidates. 3 have, after they got in as private candidates, been granted interviews by SIA/SinCargo/Silkair because they were deserving. But 1 rich boy driving his father's Audi TT to school got chopped. No bloody good. So it does not mean at all that just because you throw money at them that they will train you regardless of your attitude.
And then you really think that there will be some other flying job waiting for you if SIA does not pick you up after you're done with Massey? Wake up!
The fact that the cadets who are selected have all kinds of degrees means that it doesn't really matter WHAT paper you have. The selection board sees through all that and choose cadets based on their gut feel if someone will make a good pilot. Of course, external "devices" to demonstrate passion helps to establish claims that "oh I've always wanted to be a pilot" and that sort of crap stories.
Now, if you really have the passion in you to fly, you would be flying on your own, LONG before you are eligible to apply. That kind of history would make you stand out like a beacon amongst all the hopefuls. Way way better than some crap Massey paper. And way cheaper. So what is stopping you from going to uni here and then signing up with YFC in the meantime? Even if YFC refuses you, what is then stopping you from doing a PPL on your own?
And lastly, stop reasoning what CAAS will or will not accept. Just read the document, goddamnit! What is so difficult about Para 10.1 or 10.2? Or maybe you can't be bothered to read it and just prefer ask questions and be spoonfed?
Well, forget about short cutting their selection process and coming in any higher up the food chain - it just won't happen. At best you will come in at the Learjet phase and no further. NO direct Second Officer positions for fresh (250hr) fATPL / CPL holders, OK?
You are still too young to apply for SIA. So you don't know as yet if you are or are not cadet material. Can't you wait?
The facts are that there are about as many Massey boys in SIA as there are outside (meaning that they are jobless or in non-flying jobs). So in other words, after spending $150,000 it is still an even chance (50-50) that you may or may not get in. Now, with odds like that, why even bother?
If it was something like 90-10 that with a Massey title that you will be chosen, then it might be worth the gamble. And if you think that Massey paper will get you a management position in flight ops sometime down the road, you're dreaming. No such thing.
If you are so desperate to pay others to train you, why not try being a paying customer at Singapore Flying College (but you must of course be 26 or older)? So far they have had 4 private candidates. 3 have, after they got in as private candidates, been granted interviews by SIA/SinCargo/Silkair because they were deserving. But 1 rich boy driving his father's Audi TT to school got chopped. No bloody good. So it does not mean at all that just because you throw money at them that they will train you regardless of your attitude.
And then you really think that there will be some other flying job waiting for you if SIA does not pick you up after you're done with Massey? Wake up!
The fact that the cadets who are selected have all kinds of degrees means that it doesn't really matter WHAT paper you have. The selection board sees through all that and choose cadets based on their gut feel if someone will make a good pilot. Of course, external "devices" to demonstrate passion helps to establish claims that "oh I've always wanted to be a pilot" and that sort of crap stories.
Now, if you really have the passion in you to fly, you would be flying on your own, LONG before you are eligible to apply. That kind of history would make you stand out like a beacon amongst all the hopefuls. Way way better than some crap Massey paper. And way cheaper. So what is stopping you from going to uni here and then signing up with YFC in the meantime? Even if YFC refuses you, what is then stopping you from doing a PPL on your own?
And lastly, stop reasoning what CAAS will or will not accept. Just read the document, goddamnit! What is so difficult about Para 10.1 or 10.2? Or maybe you can't be bothered to read it and just prefer ask questions and be spoonfed?
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Massey Bashing
There seems to be a hell of a lot of Massey bashing on here... Hey I went there, and I can admit that not everything was perfect and I used to moan and complain. But then one day I just woke up and said hey, why not actually just grasp the opportunity I have and go into the ranks of GA, hey I understand the person starting this thread wants to go directly into SIA and that’s all good, but hey I don’t think that if you got to Massey or Ardmore FS or any of the other schools they are going to guarantee you anything like that!
One has to take what every one of these schools says with a pinch of salt. One has to realise that they all are marketing a product and if it seems to good to be true it probably is!!! Surely someone can’t be so stupid as not to to see that all the flight schools out there are out to make a profit out of the masses of young people out there that have a passion for flying.
Someone earlier commented on the degree as just a piece of paper, I totally disagree. Even though it is or may well be a bachelor or diddly squat, it shows people that you can accomplish what you set out to do, that is the sort of thing (amongst the multitudes of other things) that potential employers look at. I guarantee you that if you have 2 identical people at an interview, and one has a degree and one doesn’t, the one with a degree will get the job. simple math’s. 1 + 1 = 43 or something like that...
Anyway that’s my 2 cents worth!!!
One has to take what every one of these schools says with a pinch of salt. One has to realise that they all are marketing a product and if it seems to good to be true it probably is!!! Surely someone can’t be so stupid as not to to see that all the flight schools out there are out to make a profit out of the masses of young people out there that have a passion for flying.
Someone earlier commented on the degree as just a piece of paper, I totally disagree. Even though it is or may well be a bachelor or diddly squat, it shows people that you can accomplish what you set out to do, that is the sort of thing (amongst the multitudes of other things) that potential employers look at. I guarantee you that if you have 2 identical people at an interview, and one has a degree and one doesn’t, the one with a degree will get the job. simple math’s. 1 + 1 = 43 or something like that...
Anyway that’s my 2 cents worth!!!
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not to sure
Im really not to sure on that one, I really cant comment on that one as i dont know any one, Except one guy who graduated with me. He got qute a high powered job at the NZCAA. Heard a rumour that another one had a job with the Aus CAA. But my arguement is that if you have 2 people that are the same the one with the degree is going to get the job, no matter what job they are going for and what degree it is that they have.
u cant put it better....
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massey
as to most people said, the degree is everything?????????
not really...
it is defintly good, if you have a degree, not matter on what....but with the money you spend and the time you wasted, well, that aviation degree might not be better off at all.
if you look at two people with the same hours, one with degree, one not, sure...the one with degree might get hired...
if you look at two people, one with 250 hours single piston, including 40 multi instrument rating blaa blaaa, with a degree. the other with 1500 hr tt, 500 multi....in cluding ATO expereince, without a degree, who do you think is better off?????????
i suppose at the end of the day, nothing is wrong with massey, or any big sausage factories,
but the problem, and the only problem is: what do you do after you have a degree and 250 hr ??
but if you got your CPL from a normal GA operator, with a part 135 ticket, and you did not do anything bad during your training, you might actually be the one they employ...
of course lots of massey graduates got into the airlines, but how many of them got in because they have a degree????i am not too sure on that....
but all i know is, the expereinece is everything, or almost everything, and the 250hrs with no job, is not the one to go.....
pm me if you got any more questions.....
not really...it is defintly good, if you have a degree, not matter on what....but with the money you spend and the time you wasted, well, that aviation degree might not be better off at all.
if you look at two people with the same hours, one with degree, one not, sure...the one with degree might get hired...
if you look at two people, one with 250 hours single piston, including 40 multi instrument rating blaa blaaa, with a degree. the other with 1500 hr tt, 500 multi....in cluding ATO expereince, without a degree, who do you think is better off?????????
i suppose at the end of the day, nothing is wrong with massey, or any big sausage factories,
but the problem, and the only problem is: what do you do after you have a degree and 250 hr ??
but if you got your CPL from a normal GA operator, with a part 135 ticket, and you did not do anything bad during your training, you might actually be the one they employ...
of course lots of massey graduates got into the airlines, but how many of them got in because they have a degree????i am not too sure on that....
but all i know is, the expereinece is everything, or almost everything, and the 250hrs with no job, is not the one to go.....
pm me if you got any more questions.....
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to pyote, may i ask
hey pyote:
what did you do to get your degree? may i ask?
the aircraft systems and performance are great, i learnt a lot from that.....sure you can learn that from an aeroclub....or actually, from a thing called: book.
what forms the degree? aviation study? airport management? airways design??? what??? theey all sound kool, but how much did you actually learn from all that bull c...ap?
i can still remeber L=1/2pv2, and i still use that untill today....but i really dont give a rats ass about how well singapore airport is designed....and i believe, that part of the Bav is not a degree, is someone made up sh...t to make up the degree.
if you have a science degree, yep, you are a math god.... if you have an aviation degree, from what i can see and experience, i dont see myself as an aviation expert, i know nothing about aviation. it comes with experience.
the degree gives young pilots a false hope, and makes them think they know everything about aviation, makes them look down people who just have a CPL..... am i right?
do a search on CAA, 1500 active CPL holders i think, how many of them have an aviation degree? so are you saying, people without a degree will have nothing to offer??????
still, nothing wrong with massey training, or anyone else, it is just the degree above everything, makes me a bit worried.
what did you do to get your degree? may i ask?
the aircraft systems and performance are great, i learnt a lot from that.....sure you can learn that from an aeroclub....or actually, from a thing called: book.
what forms the degree? aviation study? airport management? airways design??? what??? theey all sound kool, but how much did you actually learn from all that bull c...ap?
i can still remeber L=1/2pv2, and i still use that untill today....but i really dont give a rats ass about how well singapore airport is designed....and i believe, that part of the Bav is not a degree, is someone made up sh...t to make up the degree.
if you have a science degree, yep, you are a math god.... if you have an aviation degree, from what i can see and experience, i dont see myself as an aviation expert, i know nothing about aviation. it comes with experience.
the degree gives young pilots a false hope, and makes them think they know everything about aviation, makes them look down people who just have a CPL..... am i right?
do a search on CAA, 1500 active CPL holders i think, how many of them have an aviation degree? so are you saying, people without a degree will have nothing to offer??????
still, nothing wrong with massey training, or anyone else, it is just the degree above everything, makes me a bit worried.
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Degrees
Ok basically I think that you misunderstood me. I said 2 equal people one with a degree and one without, the one with a degree will always get the job simple!!!
I Agree with you that people going out there with an aviation degree are chopped down to size. I understand that not many airlines will give you a chance if you don’t have the experience. Hey I spent 1600hours sitting in bug smashes! Bloody fun though and would recommend it to all!
I would say though is that if there is an airline hiring fresh CPL's I’m sure it will be out of a degree course and not an Aero club.
I think that the Massey degree was good! Who better to be taught ATPL 747 flight planning by than the Chief Flight planner for Air NZ, or be taught Aerodynamics by someone who had a Doctorate in Quantum Physics, or do an aviation interest course in Flight crash investigation than a well renowned investigator????? (I know I found the scope of the course well and above ATP ASL subjects) I think it is a solid grounding in aviation, But one has to realise that not many people are going to get an airline job out of it unless they really know someone.
I suggest going to Africa and get a job there so you can find out how to really fly a plane! After all what is a CPL other than a licence to go out there and learn?
I Agree with you that people going out there with an aviation degree are chopped down to size. I understand that not many airlines will give you a chance if you don’t have the experience. Hey I spent 1600hours sitting in bug smashes! Bloody fun though and would recommend it to all!
I would say though is that if there is an airline hiring fresh CPL's I’m sure it will be out of a degree course and not an Aero club.
I think that the Massey degree was good! Who better to be taught ATPL 747 flight planning by than the Chief Flight planner for Air NZ, or be taught Aerodynamics by someone who had a Doctorate in Quantum Physics, or do an aviation interest course in Flight crash investigation than a well renowned investigator????? (I know I found the scope of the course well and above ATP ASL subjects) I think it is a solid grounding in aviation, But one has to realise that not many people are going to get an airline job out of it unless they really know someone.
I suggest going to Africa and get a job there so you can find out how to really fly a plane! After all what is a CPL other than a licence to go out there and learn?
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One more thing
I never said that I look down on someone without a degree. Some of my best flying mates did aero club CPL's hey its however you do it.
I never said one way is better than another did I?
I’m just trying to say that a degree isn’t just a piece of paper as some people have referred to it as. It’s simple. Look at any industry, People with degrees generally are the Achievers ( always exceptions to the rule) But one has to realise that its not just a piece of paper! It’s a mindset!!! Some one with a degree has actually motivated their own ass for 3 years with a goal. It shows ones character as someone that can get a job done, or am I wrong?
I never said one way is better than another did I?
I’m just trying to say that a degree isn’t just a piece of paper as some people have referred to it as. It’s simple. Look at any industry, People with degrees generally are the Achievers ( always exceptions to the rule) But one has to realise that its not just a piece of paper! It’s a mindset!!! Some one with a degree has actually motivated their own ass for 3 years with a goal. It shows ones character as someone that can get a job done, or am I wrong?
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well said
hey, well said there.
i agree with you that the 747 planning...air tech ....stuff are great....i agree.
but i think you are lucky, went to africa, did all the hours....what about the rest of the people....how many of your classmates are still flying?if they went to an aeroclub, they might be a cheif pilot by now. but because they have to spend $100,000 with massey, and after that, did anyone say: hey you...you spend that much money, we will consider you as an employee....
if you go anywhere else, after spend that much money...no ****...people will treat you like god...of course you have to be half decent.
my piont is: yep, many graduates like you made through, had the will and effort of going to africa. but less than half of the people even finished the course, with 250 hrs, what are they gonna do? if your old man have money to buy you another job, good. if your mum is the CEO's receptionist who can give you an A320 job, cool. if you still have the money, after the 100,000, to buy a ticket to go to africa, good for you.not everbody wants to go to africa. not everybody can not pay back their student loan and run off to another country and never come back.
hey mate, hopefully you dont take me the wrong way, i am not trying to say bad things about the instructors or the lectures, they are great. i am just trying to make a point on what i think about the degree.
i agree with you that the 747 planning...air tech ....stuff are great....i agree.
but i think you are lucky, went to africa, did all the hours....what about the rest of the people....how many of your classmates are still flying?if they went to an aeroclub, they might be a cheif pilot by now. but because they have to spend $100,000 with massey, and after that, did anyone say: hey you...you spend that much money, we will consider you as an employee....
if you go anywhere else, after spend that much money...no ****...people will treat you like god...of course you have to be half decent.
my piont is: yep, many graduates like you made through, had the will and effort of going to africa. but less than half of the people even finished the course, with 250 hrs, what are they gonna do? if your old man have money to buy you another job, good. if your mum is the CEO's receptionist who can give you an A320 job, cool. if you still have the money, after the 100,000, to buy a ticket to go to africa, good for you.not everbody wants to go to africa. not everybody can not pay back their student loan and run off to another country and never come back.
hey mate, hopefully you dont take me the wrong way, i am not trying to say bad things about the instructors or the lectures, they are great. i am just trying to make a point on what i think about the degree.
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Running away
You May think its easy "running" away as you put it, and you may think I have a rich father that paid for my studies but that is really short sighted since you don’t actually know me. You may think that I ran away and that im not coming back to NZ but I’m actually in NZ now. I have a student loan, and if you go to the IRD website and check out how much someone has to pay back on their student loan if you are a non resident, you probably wont think that I took the easy way out. (For me it came out to 10 thousand a year where as if I was in NZ it wouldn’t be even close to that! Especially if I had to pay a % of what I was earning, which incidentally came out to almost half of my annual wage) you are making an argument that is totally irrelevant to the having a degree anyway.
“hey, well said there.
i agree with you that the 747 planning...air tech ....stuff are great....i agree."”
The reason I said what I did about 747 flight planning (I suggest you go reread what I said) is that when we were taught those subjects they were taught by someone who was of an extremely high caliber. I was taught by someone who was the chief flight planner for air NZ etc...
As for the question about how many of my class mates have jobs? I started with 45 people in my class 9 graduated and then another 6 or so graduated 6 months after me so that’s a total of 14, fair enough that’s a very low percentage, but its shows that not just anyone can knuckle down and finish a degree. As for those who finished I know that at least 11 are flying (ranging from A320, to NZ regional, UN Pilots on 1900's and ATR's and bush pilots all over the world as well as instructors in NZ and overseas, there are 2 that work for the CAA one in Aussie and one in NZ I would say that isn’t to bad for those who finished.)
Oh and when I went to Africa I saved for over a year so that I could have enough funds to go over there, so I didn’t sit in NZ jobless complaining about the industry, I got off my ass and did something about it.
I know there is a whole bunch of hatred towards Massey. Given there are many things wrong, but I did benefit form going there. Heaven forbid, but every pilot needs to worry about loosing his/her licence ( medical or whatever other reason) and if a pilot has a degree to fall back on it will make it so much better for him/her if it actually happens. It doesn’t matter what degree, I'm just saying that a degree isn’t just a pierce of paper!!!
“hey, well said there.
i agree with you that the 747 planning...air tech ....stuff are great....i agree."”
The reason I said what I did about 747 flight planning (I suggest you go reread what I said) is that when we were taught those subjects they were taught by someone who was of an extremely high caliber. I was taught by someone who was the chief flight planner for air NZ etc...
As for the question about how many of my class mates have jobs? I started with 45 people in my class 9 graduated and then another 6 or so graduated 6 months after me so that’s a total of 14, fair enough that’s a very low percentage, but its shows that not just anyone can knuckle down and finish a degree. As for those who finished I know that at least 11 are flying (ranging from A320, to NZ regional, UN Pilots on 1900's and ATR's and bush pilots all over the world as well as instructors in NZ and overseas, there are 2 that work for the CAA one in Aussie and one in NZ I would say that isn’t to bad for those who finished.)
Oh and when I went to Africa I saved for over a year so that I could have enough funds to go over there, so I didn’t sit in NZ jobless complaining about the industry, I got off my ass and did something about it.
I know there is a whole bunch of hatred towards Massey. Given there are many things wrong, but I did benefit form going there. Heaven forbid, but every pilot needs to worry about loosing his/her licence ( medical or whatever other reason) and if a pilot has a degree to fall back on it will make it so much better for him/her if it actually happens. It doesn’t matter what degree, I'm just saying that a degree isn’t just a pierce of paper!!!
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You're right it isn't just a piece of paper. It's a very special piece of paper that says to everyone "I'm a gullible muppet that just spent 3 years and $120 grand on a pilot's licence at a contemptibly bad training school".
For god's sake man it's flying, it's a motor skill. Pull back cows get smaller, push forward cows get bigger. No matter how many ways you slice it there is no way on earth you can take 3 years and multiple thousand hours in a lecture theatre to teach people something as simple as that, without padding it out with a huge amount of unnecessary and totally irrelevant bollocks. The way to learn to fly is to go out there and actually fly. Which is why people who've only done 200 hours in 3 years - or an average of a bit over an hour per week actually flying planes for all that time - get a rude shock when they finish and they find their raw flying skills are actually p!ss poor compared to someone who's done it the old school way in the space of a few months.
And your B747 flight planning guru can put that in his pipe and smoke it
For god's sake man it's flying, it's a motor skill. Pull back cows get smaller, push forward cows get bigger. No matter how many ways you slice it there is no way on earth you can take 3 years and multiple thousand hours in a lecture theatre to teach people something as simple as that, without padding it out with a huge amount of unnecessary and totally irrelevant bollocks. The way to learn to fly is to go out there and actually fly. Which is why people who've only done 200 hours in 3 years - or an average of a bit over an hour per week actually flying planes for all that time - get a rude shock when they finish and they find their raw flying skills are actually p!ss poor compared to someone who's done it the old school way in the space of a few months.
And your B747 flight planning guru can put that in his pipe and smoke it
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Fair judgement
This forum has a lot of ppl saying Massey is so exp and BS. but as far as i can see it`s not that exp. if u wanna get you CPL MEIR in NZ u will spend about $50,000? right. well that`s about how much Massey charge as well.
after 2nd year we finish all the flight and paid about $70,000? so we got all rating and ATPL theory. well if u wanna go to do a degree course it`s about $5000 a year so 2 yrs of tution should be $10,000? 50000 +10000=60000. ok so massey charge u $10000 more than local aeroclub then !!
for heaven`s sake dont make sound like massey charges everyone over $100,000 because that is for INTERNATIONAL. they charge the same price as domestic for the practicum fees. its just their tution fees 5-6 times more exp than us. but i guess if anyone ever want to get a degree from overseas. it will be bloody exp anyway
after 2nd year we finish all the flight and paid about $70,000? so we got all rating and ATPL theory. well if u wanna go to do a degree course it`s about $5000 a year so 2 yrs of tution should be $10,000? 50000 +10000=60000. ok so massey charge u $10000 more than local aeroclub then !!
for heaven`s sake dont make sound like massey charges everyone over $100,000 because that is for INTERNATIONAL. they charge the same price as domestic for the practicum fees. its just their tution fees 5-6 times more exp than us. but i guess if anyone ever want to get a degree from overseas. it will be bloody exp anyway
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SO many sour grapes
I never paid 120 000 I paid 65 when I did it, and it was only 15 thousand more than a CPLMEIR with only 15-20 hours twin. I ended up with 55 odd hour’s twin a degree and a CPL. Bloody good value to me!
But then again its all about bashing Massey by every little sour grape out there. Its pretty funny how so many people who went to chargemore or somewhere else are bashing Massey left right and centre, but the Massey guys and girls just don’t give a flying toss about the other guys and how they got to where they are.
I did my time in GA, and as anyone who has been through the ranks or GA knows your licence is just a licence to go out there and learn.
I was the CP at my last job, I had people from Massey and a number of the other well reputed training organizations in NZ, to tell the truth there really wasn’t much difference between any of their flying abilities. The Average fresh CPL holder is as good and as bad as each other. I’m not debating how good or bad some one is at flying when they have a CPL.
But at the end of the day a degree will get you so much further in all fields than not.
But then again its all about bashing Massey by every little sour grape out there. Its pretty funny how so many people who went to chargemore or somewhere else are bashing Massey left right and centre, but the Massey guys and girls just don’t give a flying toss about the other guys and how they got to where they are.
I did my time in GA, and as anyone who has been through the ranks or GA knows your licence is just a licence to go out there and learn.
I was the CP at my last job, I had people from Massey and a number of the other well reputed training organizations in NZ, to tell the truth there really wasn’t much difference between any of their flying abilities. The Average fresh CPL holder is as good and as bad as each other. I’m not debating how good or bad some one is at flying when they have a CPL.
But at the end of the day a degree will get you so much further in all fields than not.