Singaporean self-sponsored CPL holders - where are you?

[cruisercruiser]

Worked your way up?

Originally Posted by AiRBuS_380

for your information

those who wish to fly singapore airlines and exempted from cadetship with direct entry as a 2nd officer,

CASA ATPL/IR is not reconisged with CAAS civil aviation authority singapore

With a australian atpl u will still need to go through cadetship with SIA
i will recommnand that those who wants to fly espcially with SQ massey university bachelor in aviaiton is a better choice. it is a 3 year program for those without aviaiton history and it cost about 100k but the plus point is that they issue u a straight conversion atpl. thats means u hold a NZ and SIN ATPL/IR

cheers

Hi AiRBuS_380,

It sounds like you have worked your way up to where you are now privately. If I'm right I must say congratulations! I've known a few people who have done it through the hard way: they got their CPL/IR (malaysian) fly as instructors for the thenYFC, got their ways into SilkAir and are now first officers. i believe this is still the most feasible way for private students. Could you please share with me the path you took?

Hope to hear from you soon!

cruiser

[9M-]

Originally Posted by cruisercruiser

Hi dudes,

I've read the threads here about going to MFA for a CPL/IR. I've got a friend who drove all the way up north on a weekend to enquire about signing up. He was told that it's fully booked til April 2007 and was told to leave his name with 100+ other private students and they'll give him a call when there's a vacancy. Apparently AirAsia and MAS have been flooding MFA with students that they are operating at capacity. It seems like aviation in this region is really booming!

A bit of info about myself: I'm a SIA final round reject and like most of you here, am passionate about flying and am saving hard for the course up north or australia. I was told by some cadet friends who were ex classmates that they do not entertain 2nd round rejects like myself. So I had to look for alternative like those I've mentioned. I'm 28 this year and will need a few more years of saving before I can afford the fees. I guess by the time I get a CPL/IR I'll reach an old 32 or 33! I'll still presevere though.

I know an instructor in SYFC who advised me to seek a "written blessing" from the GM of SYFC that they'll employ me after I get my CPL/IR from MFA, before I embark on the course. I haven't done so since I'm still short of about 2/3 of the sum required! Any thoughts on the "written blessing" and clocking hours as a AQFI/QFI in SYFC? Any comments positive or negative most welcomed!

I would like to take this opportunity to look around for people who have flung the final SQ interview and yet got in some years later, either through the usual cadet way or through the long hard way of clocking hours as an instructor or bush piloting. I know there might be none! However I still harbour hopes that SQ will one fine day change their recruitment policy.

Hope to hear from you guys really soon!

cruiser

Hi,
There are many factors you need to consider before embarking on your long and expensive journey. Do not just think going to a cpl/ir school you will have a job after that. You have to have a backup plan. Also getting an australian CPL/IR and coming back home to convert proves another problem. CAAS will not convert your licence for you unless you are employed by an air operator and air operator will not emply you because you do not have a CAAS CPL. Thats how they control aviation in sg. If you are looking for opportunities in malaysia with a CPL , DCA will require you to have total PIC time of 500hours before you are eligible to take the written ATPL/CPL papers. They will not convert your licence until you have sit for all the papers.

Working in malaysia as an instructor i would say is of a higer possibility than compared to working in singapore. Many post in singapore are reserved for the ex air force pilots. Anyway what i think is the best path if if you can afford go ahead with the CPL and be prepared to have to work as an instructor to clock your hours.

[demandpump]

Originally Posted by cruisercruiser

I know an instructor in SYFC who advised me to seek a "written blessing" from the GM of SYFC that they'll employ me after I get my CPL/IR from MFA, before I embark on the course. I haven't done so since I'm still short of about 2/3 of the sum required! Any thoughts on the "written blessing" and clocking hours as a AQFI/QFI in SYFC? Any comments positive or negative most welcomed!

Hi,

If you can get a job at SYFC, then its good. I was a student there once. They impose high standards on training and on instructors as well. But be mindful that the kind of flying done at SYFC is very limiting. You basically fly round and round in circles in the training area. No cross-country flying, no multi-engine, no instrument flying, you don't get to shoot instrument approaches. I'm not even sure if there is a VOR station to track.

After too much of visual single-engine flying, you might get rusty on other advanced flying techniques, then that's not very good. Moreover, having a couple thousand hours on a PA-28 isn't going to do much good for the airlines.

SYFC has a very "military" culture, because of its close links with the air force. Many of the instructors are former/current air force pilots. When I was flying there (many years ago), there were a few self-sponsored CPL guys, don't know if they're still there now. During those days, students were allowed to dress casually for flying lessons. Now they have to wear "flight suits". I think the instructors as well (?)

[demandpump]

Originally Posted by 9M-

If you are looking for opportunities in malaysia with a CPL , DCA will require you to have total PIC time of 500hours before you are eligible to take the written ATPL/CPL papers. They will not convert your licence until you have sit for all the papers.

Hi 9M-,
Are you refering to the Australian CPL, that you'll need to have 500hrs before DCA will allow you to convert?

What if a student went over to MFA with 165hrs single-engine Australian CPL, and wanted to do the MEIR training in Malaysia? What sort of conversion would he need? Can he simply just carry on from where he left off and complete the MEIR (35hrs) training and get the Malaysian license? Are there extra hours to be flown, and extra papers to sit? Or is this sort of thing totally not allowed?

Thanks!

[9M-]

Originally Posted by demandpump

Hi 9M-,
Are you refering to the Australian CPL, that you'll need to have 500hrs before DCA will allow you to convert?

What if a student went over to MFA with 165hrs single-engine Australian CPL, and wanted to do the MEIR training in Malaysia? What sort of conversion would he need? Can he simply just carry on from where he left off and complete the MEIR (35hrs) training and get the Malaysian license? Are there extra hours to be flown, and extra papers to sit? Or is this sort of thing totally not allowed?

Thanks!

In malaysia, If you are with MFA from scratch or from your PPL stage then the 200 hours rules apply which will grant you a malaysian CPL after that. If you have an oversea CPL and come to malaysia to convert to a malaysian one then they will require you to either sit for the UKCAA CPL papers or they can let you take the UKCAA ATPL papers straight away before they will consider converting your foreign CPL. On top of that, you must have 500 PIC hours before you can take the exams.

As for IR, It is best that you write a letter to DCA to seek their approval before embarking on it overseas bcos if you do not have a letter of approval from them, they will not recognised it at all.

If you intend to do your IR in malaysia, MFA and LATC will require you to wait like 2 more years? before having a space for you. So All is not good in malaysia for private candidates. Anyway what i have quoted above will still have to be on a case by case basis from DCA. One more tip is in malaysia whatever you want to do , ALWAYS get a letter of approval from DCA before trying.

[demandpump]

Originally Posted by cochise

Malaysia is a different place when it comes to employment. Like I said in my earlier post "it's not what you know but who you know". I learned that in Malaysia that "it's not who you know, but who knows you!" It's very hard to get in touch with people and arrange meetings with companies and they want experience on type. The usually only take direct entry captains if you're foreign.
In the end I got offered a job as an instructor with the Malaysian Flying Academy but ended up turning it down because I got my current job offer. You really have to have a few connections in Malaysia to get a job and as for a Singaporean I'm sure it will prove a lot more challenging!
There is one thing you're right about though...Turboprops are more fun! Sorry I just had to poke fun at the jet jocks!

Hi cochise,
Could you share with us your aviation experience. Where you did your CPL training? What was your first job? What citizenship do you hold? (born in Singapore?) How did you get to your current job in the Caribbean...etc

Thanks!

[cochise]

Not a problem. Was born in Singapore but my parents are from Trinidad & Tobago in the southern caribbean. I went to FlightSafety Academy in Vero Beach Florida and did my CPL/Multi/IR plus an instructors rating there. You have the option under the J1 visa in the states to continue there for a year as an instructor to build time if you get selected. I went back to the Caribbean and instructed in light aircraft and built some time as a charter pilot on a Cessna 402. After about a year I went back up to the states and did everything from Instructing on about 15 different types of light singles and twins to flying charter in a KingAir 200 to flying cargo in an ancient beech 18. After that I went back to Asia to take a look around but found it very difficult. I got offered a job with the MFA and accepted but the same day I got a call for a Dash-8 Job in the caribbean...needless to say I was on the next plane home. I've been working here for about a year now and hopefully will have my command within the next 2 if things keep going the way they are...
hope this helps

[AiRBuS_380]

the hard life

Originally Posted by cruisercruiser

Hi AiRBuS_380,

It sounds like you have worked your way up to where you are now privately. If I'm right I must say congratulations! I've known a few people who have done it through the hard way: they got their CPL/IR (malaysian) fly as instructors for the thenYFC, got their ways into SilkAir and are now first officers. i believe this is still the most feasible way for private students. Could you please share with me the path you took?

Hope to hear from you soon!

cruiser

hi cruiser,

well heres my flying preview of my life.
went to massey university after army to take a double degree bachelor in aviation(ATPL/muti-IR) and bachelor in aviation management. the ATPL is a singapore CAAS atpl

graduate and applied to SIA, got in as a 2nd officer,
went for leajet45 trainig
training type rating for B744
line training as a 2nd officer
FO for B744 till 2005
now on my pharse of type conversion to A380
i still do flghts in between.

thats how my flying life proceed....

cheers
a great way to fly
singapore airlines

[cruisercruiser]

Originally Posted by 9M-

If you are looking for opportunities in malaysia with a CPL , DCA will require you to have total PIC time of 500hours before you are eligible to take the written ATPL/CPL papers. They will not convert your licence until you have sit for all the papers.

Working in malaysia as an instructor i would say is of a higer possibility than compared to working in singapore. Many post in singapore are reserved for the ex air force pilots. Anyway what i think is the best path if if you can afford go ahead with the CPL and be prepared to have to work as an instructor to clock your hours.

Hi 9M-,

Thanks very much for the info! Very helpful indeed.

Some further questions. If I get a malaysian license, what do you think are the chances that I will find employment other than being an instructor in MFA? I am aware that getting employed as an instructor in MFA is difficult especially so since I'm singaporean? Do you know of other flying clubs in malaysia where we can clock our hours? I know of a FRAS in johor.

I believe the instructor in SYFC who told me to get a written blessing from the club's GM before I embark on my course in MFA meant to tell me that I must make sure they are willing to convert my malaysian license to the singaporean one. If they are not willing, like what you said about the controlled aviation in singapore, I will not be able to fly in sg. Thats why I need to knwo about options in malaysia.

looking forward to your reply,

cheers!

[cruisercruiser]

Originally Posted by AiRBuS_380

hi cruiser,

well heres my flying preview of my life.
went to massey university after army to take a double degree bachelor in aviation(ATPL/muti-IR) and bachelor in aviation management. the ATPL is a singapore CAAS atpl

graduate and applied to SIA, got in as a 2nd officer,
went for leajet45 trainig
training type rating for B744
line training as a 2nd officer
FO for B744 till 2005
now on my pharse of type conversion to A380
i still do flghts in between.

thats how my flying life proceed....

cheers
a great way to fly
singapore airlines

Hi AiRBuS_380,

Thanks for sharing. BTW are you a singaporean? I know a taiwanese guy who took the course in massey and is now with EVA. I've heard from him that the course is quite a tough one with about 20 people starting and only a handful graduating. Any comments?

I have contemplated taking up the course in massey which is 3 years and costs about $100K, and the MFA option. The MFA one seems like a better deal considering the course is shorter and cheaper. Of course If I were thinking of flying in sg, I'll have the problem of converting the license to CAAS standard.

Another thing: Did you try applying for SIA even before you took the course in massey? Just curious.

Cheers,

cruiser

[AiRBuS_380]

hi cruiser,
yes i am a singaporean.

i wentto massey when i was 22.straight after army.
for u to take a atpl/ir ar massey its a 3 year degree course and theres alot of test and papers to sit,
its much tougher then those australia fly school.

i went to massey to take a double degree program bachchelor in aviation (atpl/ir) and bachelor in aviation management.

i cant apply to SIA during my time becouse
1 im underage
2 i only have a diploma,at my time degree poses a class higher.for now its definately a degree unless u are very special then they will consider.

cheers hope that helps.

[9M-]

Originally Posted by cruisercruiser

Hi 9M-,

Thanks very much for the info! Very helpful indeed.

Some further questions. If I get a malaysian license, what do you think are the chances that I will find employment other than being an instructor in MFA? I am aware that getting employed as an instructor in MFA is difficult especially so since I'm singaporean? Do you know of other flying clubs in malaysia where we can clock our hours? I know of a FRAS in johor.

I believe the instructor in SYFC who told me to get a written blessing from the club's GM before I embark on my course in MFA meant to tell me that I must make sure they are willing to convert my malaysian license to the singaporean one. If they are not willing, like what you said about the controlled aviation in singapore, I will not be able to fly in sg. Thats why I need to knwo about options in malaysia.

looking forward to your reply,

cheers!

Hi,
Instructors are in HUGH demand now in malaysia. DCA had just come up with new rules making training for Assistant Flying Instructor difficult. If you can become an instructor, looking for a club to teach will not be a problem. In another word flying clubs will grab you like gold.

The catch is, flying clubs in malaysia pay instructor by hourly commission. Meaning no flight = no money. So if you want a more stable income, joining MFA or LATC will provide you with fix pay irregardless of how many flights you do a month. Anyway getting employed in MFA is not difficult provided you got the basic qualification they are looking for. You just need a CPL and an instructor rating, they will take u in. MFA consist of 90% foreign instructors btw.

As for flying clubs in johor, there are currently 3. Fras flying club, Elite flying club and Johor flying club. Hope this informations help and if you need anymore info you can always ask again.

[cruisercruiser]

Originally Posted by demandpump

Thanks for the reply,
I forgot to add that I wasn't successful at the SQ final interview 5 years ago, so I can forget about cadet pilot.....moreover I'm at the wrong end of their age limit.

I was also a SQ final interview reject. I was told that I will never ever be considered again. But something happened puzzled me. I applied 2 years after my final interview failure and was called down for the first interview about 7 months back. The captain who interviewed me said something like "since you've demonstrated that you're really keen, we'll consider your application" I got a rejection letter 3 days later saying "we've gone through your application in detail and regret to inform you that you are unsuccessful in your application..."

Wierd things going on. Any comments??

Well, I didn't pin much hope on SIA after my final round failure thats why i'm looking elsewhere for alternatives.

cheers

[Boeing79]

Pls check your pm, bro cruisercruiser

[9M-]

Originally Posted by cruisercruiser

I was also a SQ final interview reject. I was told that I will never ever be considered again. But something happened puzzled me. I applied 2 years after my final interview failure and was called down for the first interview about 7 months back. The captain who interviewed me said something like "since you've demonstrated that you're really keen, we'll consider your application" I got a rejection letter 3 days later saying "we've gone through your application in detail and regret to inform you that you are unsuccessful in your application..."

Wierd things going on. Any comments??

Well, I didn't pin much hope on SIA after my final round failure thats why i'm looking elsewhere for alternatives.

cheers

Hi,
Thats something new i heard. Never knew SIA accept applicants who failed the final interview before. I was told if your upgrade yourself from a degree to a masters or from a diploma to a degree, they might give you another chance. Just wana ask did u by any chance upgraded your education within this 2 years after you failed the final interview?

Thanks.

[cruisercruiser]

Originally Posted by 9M-

Hi,
Thats something new i heard. Never knew SIA accept applicants who failed the final interview before. I was told if your upgrade yourself from a degree to a masters or from a diploma to a degree, they might give you another chance. Just wana ask did u by any chance upgraded your education within this 2 years after you failed the final interview?

Thanks.

Hi, I guess I would just post a reply I gave to one of the guys in this thread who PMed me. I understand that this thread was started to discuss about possible alternative training, however I believe sharing my experience with others will in a way or another help them gain?

Here's it:

Hi dude,

I understand your hopes and anxiety upon hearing about my case. You must be thinking " There is hope". Please do not let your hopes run too high cos from a very personnal point of view, I believe what I experienced is a SIA screw up rather than a change of policy for the airline. I'll answer you questions as best as I could.

I cleared my first interview on my first attempt in feb 2003. One month later, I got called up for the final rounds which I failed. I applied a few times after that failure but never got a reply. Sometime in june- july 2005 (which was about 7-8 months back) I applied again and got a shock when they called me up for a 1ST interview. What happened next is what you read in my post yesterday.

The questions I got were very different from my first interview I had in 2003. They asked me whether I had gone through the 2nd interview (which I had honestly {and very stupidly} indicated in the form applicants are supposed to fill up stating the number of times the 1st interview they had). The captain then said there is no point going through the questions again since I had already passed the first interview 2 years back. Then he asked about general things like where i was working, what i had done in the past 2 years etc. It was a very quick one that lasted only 10 minutes I think. Then i was told to wait for their reply that will take about 1-2 weeks. I knew it was gone from the length of the interview. I took the opportunity to ask the captain whether it is still possible for a 2nd round reject like me to be selected and his reply was what i stated in the post yesterday. However I got an email from edward 3 days later saying I was unsuccessful. In my opinion, HR screwed up the shortlisting and I ended up going for the 1st interview which I am not even eligible for since SIA do not accept people who had failed the final rounds. What the interviewers said were just paying lip sevice to me so as not to look bad in the screw up that they had done.

For the past 2.5 years I have never heard of anyone going for the interview again after they had failed the 2nd rounds. I have heard from friends who are cadets and 2nd officers in there that SIA will not accept 2nd round rejects. I was the first that went for the interview again after being rejected in the 2nd round. I strongly believe it’s a screw up cos in the interview, they seem disinterested and unprofessional when they confirmed with me that I was a 2nd round reject. Maybe things would have turned out differently if I had lied that I haven’t been to the 2nd interview. I would then have the chance of sitting through the first interview again and upon passing go to the 2nd round. But having said that, I had heard that the computerized test in the 2nd round will have a data base consisting of names that had already taken the test. That’s why joyce was quite careful about us checking our names on the screen and making sure that it appears exactly like it is in our IC, before starting our test. Well, all these are unsubstantiated “opinions” from my very own experience and from cadets and pilots in there. They’ll never be confirmed unless they come straight from the HR peoples’ mouths.

I did not upgrade my qualification before the call-up. This further adds to my suspicions that my call-up was a screw up. I am 28. Like I’ve mentioned above I was very honest when filling up the forms. I stated I’ve taken the 2nd round. I did not add anything else. Believe me till today I am still puzzled as to why I was called up. I was given hopes but was sent smashing when they rejected me the 2nd time round. Double whammy. Honestly, thinking back now, I would have told the interviewers that I haven’t been rejected. Maybe that will bring me further. Well I may never know. And like you said SIA works strangely and we will never understand unless we get info straight from HR.

I have been thinking about Massey. You might have read from this thread that I’d posted that its very expensive and longer as compared to the MFA option. I do not come from a rich family and am currently saving up by working as an engineer. I ‘ll probably take another 3-4 years before I save enough for MFA. Like you I am passionate about flying and have never thought of giving it up. The only thing restricting me now is the money factor. I am definitely with you in pursuing this dream. Please do keep in contact to discuss future plans and options. We could help each other out in this long hard journey. My email is [email protected].

For your info I’m working in the UK now and will not return to Singapore for the next 1 year.

Meanwhile keep our heads up. Success comes to those who persevere.

cruiser

[zelin]

Originally Posted by demandpump

Hi,
If you can get a job at SYFC, then its good. I was a student there once. They impose high standards on training and on instructors as well. But be mindful that the kind of flying done at SYFC is very limiting. You basically fly round and round in circles in the training area. No cross-country flying, no multi-engine, no instrument flying, you don't get to shoot instrument approaches. I'm not even sure if there is a VOR station to track.
After too much of visual single-engine flying, you might get rusty on other advanced flying techniques, then that's not very good. Moreover, having a couple thousand hours on a PA-28 isn't going to do much good for the airlines.
SYFC has a very "military" culture, because of its close links with the air force. Many of the instructors are former/current air force pilots. When I was flying there (many years ago), there were a few self-sponsored CPL guys, don't know if they're still there now. During those days, students were allowed to dress casually for flying lessons. Now they have to wear "flight suits". I think the instructors as well (?)

Think the flight instructors that u've known from SYFC are no longer with the club. They've all moved on and mainly the retirees frm airforce are joining them as instructors. Well, flight suits are only issued to students in the PPL phase...those in the basic phase wear a syfc polo-tshirt.
Flying at SYFC, one will be bounded by many rules and regulations, which can really be quite stifling. But well, a couple of their instructors have left to join the airlines...they probably have other hours besides the thousands on the PA28 =P
Cruisercruiser, regarding the flying clubs in johor, Johor Flying club is no longer in operations. There's only FRAS and ELITE flying clubs which are based at Senai now. Joining Elite Flying Club might be a better idea i guess as they have more aircrafts compared to FRAS and currently, u can be an AFI in Malaysia just by holding a PPL. Rules are changing next year to be the same as Singapore, where a CPL would be the minimum to qualify as an AFI.

[zelin]

Well, anyone knows of any prospects in the Singapore aviation industry for the ladies? It certainly seems like it's a dead end, esp with SIA not accepting females into their cadet pilot/flight instructor programme. Sigh~

[demandpump]

Originally Posted by zelin

Well, anyone knows of any prospects in the Singapore aviation industry for the ladies? It certainly seems like it's a dead end, esp with SIA not accepting females into their cadet pilot/flight instructor programme. Sigh~

Hi zelin, nice to know there's another lady who's keen to fly. Thanks for the insightful knowledge on the current situation at SYFC. There was this other young Singaporean lady who just completed her Aussie CPL/MEIR who pmed me. I replied her but havn't heard from her since. Wonder how's she doing now. Maybe she's quietly training in one of our budget carriers?

Originally Posted by zelin

u can be an AFI in Malaysia just by holding a PPL

Is this possible? I thought you can't earn a revenue job with just a PPL? Unless you teach for free?

cruisercruiser:
If you already have a degree, I would advice against going to massey. Too expensive. Just get a normal CPL will do. In the meantime, if you're keen to fly, just continue doing what you're doing, not only to save the money for flight training later on, but also to build experience in your current job. Because this will be your back up plan should your aviation dreams not work out. Having said that, if you want to go to MFA, I suggest sending the application early, cos they're saturated. I just made some enquires and was told to send in the application form minus the payment and medical cert so that they can keep it in view. Wonder how long I'll have to wait. Probably very very long.

[zelin]

Originally Posted by demandpump

Hi zelin, nice to know there's another lady who's keen to fly. Thanks for the insightful knowledge on the current situation at SYFC. There was this other young Singaporean lady who just completed her Aussie CPL/MEIR who pmed me. I replied her but havn't heard from her since. Wonder how's she doing now. Maybe she's quietly training in one of our budget carriers?

Hmmm...wonder if she's the one who's with jetstarasia...hehz

Originally Posted by demandpump

Is this possible? I thought you can't earn a revenue job with just a PPL? Unless you teach for free?

Sorry for the confusion. I meant that with an AFI rating to yer PPL, one would be able to start instructing in malaysia. Unlike over here, you would need to be at least a CPL holder to go for the AFI rating. Hope that clears things up.