SIA CARGO
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Formerly resident of Knoteatingham
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Which half is bull**** and which half is fair comment? And how do you really know for sure until it's too late?
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Formerly resident of Knoteatingham
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Touche!
Yes, its easy to see, smell and taste when you are drowning in it but less easy to detect from the outside looking in.
To be fair, there does appear to be a determined effort to tackle the worst of the issues within SIA Cargo, but I am still of the opinion that "we" may only achieve the improvements to Ts & Cs that mainline will allow us to. And I know that any improvements that are made will arrive too late for quite a number of people.
Yes, its easy to see, smell and taste when you are drowning in it but less easy to detect from the outside looking in.
To be fair, there does appear to be a determined effort to tackle the worst of the issues within SIA Cargo, but I am still of the opinion that "we" may only achieve the improvements to Ts & Cs that mainline will allow us to. And I know that any improvements that are made will arrive too late for quite a number of people.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Above 30,000 ft
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Bananas:
Right. I am from the mainline and so am not quite in the same position as you are. Nevertheless i believe it fair to say that irrespective of the specific issues at hand (believe me, we do have issues on this side too), it all boils down to that all important ingredient - trust. I speak for myself when i say that if i feel that i can trust the people i work for, that they can be relied upon to act in my best interests as can reasonably be expected of any company which places value on its people, then i would gladly go to the ends of the world for them (I presume this to be the case for you guys over there as well). Sadly, after repeated & numerous experiences to the contrary, of how SIA Mgmt has tried to pull off stunt after stunt without so much as a semblance of shame, trust is hardly a word that comes to my mind as far as these people are concerned. Trust - once lost - is not easily regained.
And so, it holds true that our decisions for the future are very much dictated by our experiences of the past. As the saying goes, 'Cheat me once, shame on you; cheat me twice - shame on me.'
Right. I am from the mainline and so am not quite in the same position as you are. Nevertheless i believe it fair to say that irrespective of the specific issues at hand (believe me, we do have issues on this side too), it all boils down to that all important ingredient - trust. I speak for myself when i say that if i feel that i can trust the people i work for, that they can be relied upon to act in my best interests as can reasonably be expected of any company which places value on its people, then i would gladly go to the ends of the world for them (I presume this to be the case for you guys over there as well). Sadly, after repeated & numerous experiences to the contrary, of how SIA Mgmt has tried to pull off stunt after stunt without so much as a semblance of shame, trust is hardly a word that comes to my mind as far as these people are concerned. Trust - once lost - is not easily regained.
And so, it holds true that our decisions for the future are very much dictated by our experiences of the past. As the saying goes, 'Cheat me once, shame on you; cheat me twice - shame on me.'
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Suitcase....
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I have sat back and watch the barbs fly, but since it seems to have subsided I will just offer my comments.
First of all, when I joined 3 years ago, there was a different CP. A very trustworthy man who recognized what needed to be done to make SIAC a "decent" place to work. We discussed that in the interview and he seemed very sincere in his desire to change things. However, after a point, he too got tired of hitting his head against the wall
And now he's back on the line (mainline) and is a true gentleman.
I have completed my contract (shortly) and I will elect to vote with my feet. It's off to greener pastures (perhaps I should say brown). The sad part is any organization that has figured the attrition rate into their staffing just doesn't get it! Granted every company will always have some attrition but not like this. Employees are an asset and as such they should be treated like that! They're not a disposable commidity that must be tossed by the use by date. If you look at successful companies, the employees are treated in a reasonable, respectful manner. They are part of the "team".
In Cargo there has been no attempt or effort to build any sort of team. The current management (specifically the CP) has squandered a perfect opportunity to do that. As a result, people are quite quite unhappy and they are voting with their feet. Pilots, both Captains and First Officers, are leaving in record numbers. Most of those leaving still have their bonds and they really don't care what happens. Thankfully, the company has not enforced the terms and has been letting people leave on fairly good terms.
Anyhow, I think it's a terrible waste of talent. There are a lot of good, dedicated pilots at SIAC and they won't stay. The comments made about beggars, I thought was uncalled for. The pilots who will leave will have no problem getting jobs anyplace. It's the pilots who don't have any other choice that will cause problems.
Anyhow, good luck to all those that remain and good luck to anyone who's even thinking of going there. Your eyes have been opened!
First of all, when I joined 3 years ago, there was a different CP. A very trustworthy man who recognized what needed to be done to make SIAC a "decent" place to work. We discussed that in the interview and he seemed very sincere in his desire to change things. However, after a point, he too got tired of hitting his head against the wall
And now he's back on the line (mainline) and is a true gentleman. I have completed my contract (shortly) and I will elect to vote with my feet. It's off to greener pastures (perhaps I should say brown). The sad part is any organization that has figured the attrition rate into their staffing just doesn't get it! Granted every company will always have some attrition but not like this. Employees are an asset and as such they should be treated like that! They're not a disposable commidity that must be tossed by the use by date. If you look at successful companies, the employees are treated in a reasonable, respectful manner. They are part of the "team".
In Cargo there has been no attempt or effort to build any sort of team. The current management (specifically the CP) has squandered a perfect opportunity to do that. As a result, people are quite quite unhappy and they are voting with their feet. Pilots, both Captains and First Officers, are leaving in record numbers. Most of those leaving still have their bonds and they really don't care what happens. Thankfully, the company has not enforced the terms and has been letting people leave on fairly good terms.
Anyhow, I think it's a terrible waste of talent. There are a lot of good, dedicated pilots at SIAC and they won't stay. The comments made about beggars, I thought was uncalled for. The pilots who will leave will have no problem getting jobs anyplace. It's the pilots who don't have any other choice that will cause problems.
Anyhow, good luck to all those that remain and good luck to anyone who's even thinking of going there. Your eyes have been opened!
Join Date: May 2006
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What's happen with SIA Cargo ?
Hello all,
Last Dec. I received a confirmation from SIA Cargo's SUPERVISOR TECH/FLIGHT OPERATIONS, that my application with SIA Cargo was successful and that they would like to offer me the B747-400 Conversion training commencing on May 07.
Three days ago here is the mail I received : "Having reviewed the crewing establishment requirements in pursuance of self -sufficiency, we regret to advise that we shall not be proceeding with your Application.
We take this opportunity..."
Is somebody able to give me some explanations ???
Is somebody experiencing the same scenario ???
Nice flights to all !!!
Last Dec. I received a confirmation from SIA Cargo's SUPERVISOR TECH/FLIGHT OPERATIONS, that my application with SIA Cargo was successful and that they would like to offer me the B747-400 Conversion training commencing on May 07.
Three days ago here is the mail I received : "Having reviewed the crewing establishment requirements in pursuance of self -sufficiency, we regret to advise that we shall not be proceeding with your Application.
We take this opportunity..."
Is somebody able to give me some explanations ???
Is somebody experiencing the same scenario ???
Nice flights to all
!!!
Last edited by hellofrance; 10th Feb 2007 at 12:49.
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Same deal!
I also received a letter of confimation in December for a class starting the end of May 2007, with the same response.
Totally confused since I have been waiting for this class since May of 2006.
No other explaination was given to me beside the one you got.
Welcome to the club!
Totally confused since I have been waiting for this class since May of 2006.
No other explaination was given to me beside the one you got.
Welcome to the club!
Join Date: Aug 2003
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Hellofrance and asia757
The explanation is quite simple. SIA is presently overstaffed by over 100 744 Capts due to the delay of Airbus's A380. Had the A380 arrived last Oct these pilots would have been moved onto the new plane. If the A380 arrives in Oct 2007, (not yet confirmed) the over staffing problem will begin to be relieved and once it is, no doubt recruiting will slowly begin again into SIA Cargo. Right now there are pilots in both mainline and cargo moaning their heads off because they all want to fly more since their salaries are heavily dependant on how many flights they get to do. Myself included. There is no point in worseneing the situation so anyone in the pipeline waiting to get a job in SIA Cargo will be held back until Airbus sorts out its problems.
There are many other problems as well of course regarding SIA Cargo that have been well covered above.
Well done to gengis, bananas, 4pw, phil and others for putting less emotion and some common sense back into this thread.
Any prospective SIA cargo pilot should read their posts carefully as they contain far less than the supposed 50% of BS.
The explanation is quite simple. SIA is presently overstaffed by over 100 744 Capts due to the delay of Airbus's A380. Had the A380 arrived last Oct these pilots would have been moved onto the new plane. If the A380 arrives in Oct 2007, (not yet confirmed) the over staffing problem will begin to be relieved and once it is, no doubt recruiting will slowly begin again into SIA Cargo. Right now there are pilots in both mainline and cargo moaning their heads off because they all want to fly more since their salaries are heavily dependant on how many flights they get to do. Myself included. There is no point in worseneing the situation so anyone in the pipeline waiting to get a job in SIA Cargo will be held back until Airbus sorts out its problems.
There are many other problems as well of course regarding SIA Cargo that have been well covered above.
Well done to gengis, bananas, 4pw, phil and others for putting less emotion and some common sense back into this thread.
Any prospective SIA cargo pilot should read their posts carefully as they contain far less than the supposed 50% of BS.
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: singapore
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The Truth Hurts
gentleman,
you all just withnessed the attitude many mainline rats have of us cargolads.
beggers,bush pilots etc... none of us are those. we have had the opportunity to have had the wide experience to walkabout that has brought us to SQC.
what SIA/SQC has to offer is the country.it is safe,clean with a system, this is what many were attracted to and now have the real picture. singapore as a whole is about money. this is all they have to live for,as for us we were in for an adventure. speak to many of the local young blokes they are just in for the money.
B744 is a good rating to have for future cargo fleets will need this rating and a few with the new B74-8 pax aircraft.
our inputs have made a sigificant impact and has had effects for change. i think the changes will finally come to the fleet but when is the question.
with the A380 due and until many of the golden oldies on the B744 fly off to this fleet "NO CHANGES WILL TAKE PLACE". SORRY BUT THATS A HARD FACT AND IT HURTS.
we must hold a firm stand "THEY NEED US" we must keep ourselfs marketable. they tried us initially for cheap then none joined they increased the basic and recruitment was better. now with rosters crazy, low flying many are leaving...S$7000 what is that, that was mearly a figure we just fell for it.
when shove comes to push SQ/SQC is a better bet that KAL/ASIANA/JET or other regional offers. but i will make the best of these fellows at their expense.
remember all this is because of the "hatched man" the day he passes away all hell will break loose in this place as none of the others can think as they are only the mouth pieces, that will be the begining of the end. i do not think the system will hold but it will surely hold longer that in other countries.
sorry i got carried away but all this is all from my heart!
you all just withnessed the attitude many mainline rats have of us cargolads.
beggers,bush pilots etc... none of us are those. we have had the opportunity to have had the wide experience to walkabout that has brought us to SQC.
what SIA/SQC has to offer is the country.it is safe,clean with a system, this is what many were attracted to and now have the real picture. singapore as a whole is about money. this is all they have to live for,as for us we were in for an adventure. speak to many of the local young blokes they are just in for the money.
B744 is a good rating to have for future cargo fleets will need this rating and a few with the new B74-8 pax aircraft.
our inputs have made a sigificant impact and has had effects for change. i think the changes will finally come to the fleet but when is the question.
with the A380 due and until many of the golden oldies on the B744 fly off to this fleet "NO CHANGES WILL TAKE PLACE". SORRY BUT THATS A HARD FACT AND IT HURTS.
we must hold a firm stand "THEY NEED US" we must keep ourselfs marketable. they tried us initially for cheap then none joined they increased the basic and recruitment was better. now with rosters crazy, low flying many are leaving...S$7000 what is that, that was mearly a figure we just fell for it.
when shove comes to push SQ/SQC is a better bet that KAL/ASIANA/JET or other regional offers. but i will make the best of these fellows at their expense.
remember all this is because of the "hatched man" the day he passes away all hell will break loose in this place as none of the others can think as they are only the mouth pieces, that will be the begining of the end. i do not think the system will hold but it will surely hold longer that in other countries.
sorry i got carried away but all this is all from my heart!
Join Date: Sep 2006
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My apologies to all Pprune loyalists who took offense at my ("50 % bull****...") comment. It was a figure of speech. Approximately 50 %, which could also be 10%. Kinda like approximately S$7,000 PPA/month could also be S$2,000-3,000.
Thanks for the general sincere sympathy "for our plight", especially from you mainline boys. Really not necessary. Pilots that survive always have backup plans. I never would have come to this beautiful Island without the attitude that I could/would at anytime call 6552 2222 and head for Changi and distant shores on a one-way ticket. I would advise any potential SIAC joiners to consider the same. Indentured servitude ended in my home country with the Emancipation Proclamation of 1863.
Thanks for the general sincere sympathy "for our plight", especially from you mainline boys. Really not necessary. Pilots that survive always have backup plans. I never would have come to this beautiful Island without the attitude that I could/would at anytime call 6552 2222 and head for Changi and distant shores on a one-way ticket. I would advise any potential SIAC joiners to consider the same. Indentured servitude ended in my home country with the Emancipation Proclamation of 1863.
Join Date: Feb 2004
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Sorry to say but all I seem to read is complaints from Sing Cargo guys.
Aren't the Singapore Airlines guys in the same boat as far as contract?
I wonder were the flight hours ( the $7000) guaranteed in the contract or was it one of those ;base pay plus $x per hr over so many hours.
Fortunes change in aviation and companies have been using this ( base plus flight hours formula) type of contract for about 30 years to give them a breather during tough times. The alternative is redundancies at the first hint of a downturn.
Surely you experienced pilots were aware of this.
What does the contract say?
Unfortunately, pilots ( also for about 30 years if not since the dawn of flight) have looked at a contract, quickly multiplied all the possible income to an unrealistic amount and then build their lifestyle right up to this limit.
When things don't work for them, they complain and try to change the contract conditions to suit them.
If you can't work with the company or the contract, it's simple, vote with your feet!
Aren't the Singapore Airlines guys in the same boat as far as contract?
I wonder were the flight hours ( the $7000) guaranteed in the contract or was it one of those ;base pay plus $x per hr over so many hours.
Fortunes change in aviation and companies have been using this ( base plus flight hours formula) type of contract for about 30 years to give them a breather during tough times. The alternative is redundancies at the first hint of a downturn.
Surely you experienced pilots were aware of this.
What does the contract say?
Unfortunately, pilots ( also for about 30 years if not since the dawn of flight) have looked at a contract, quickly multiplied all the possible income to an unrealistic amount and then build their lifestyle right up to this limit.
When things don't work for them, they complain and try to change the contract conditions to suit them.
If you can't work with the company or the contract, it's simple, vote with your feet!
Join Date: Sep 2006
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INTERNATIONAL TRADER,
your quote:
"Unfortunately, pilots ( also for about 30 years if not since the dawn of flight) have looked at a contract, quickly multiplied all the possible income to an unrealistic amount and then build their lifestyle right up to this limit.
When things don't work for them, they complain and try to change the contract conditions to suit them."
A typical pompous PPrune response of oversimplification from someone looking in from the outside. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but you know not of what you speak. I hope my posts will give future SIAC joiners something to think about and information that was unfortunately not available to me, despite due diligence.
International Trader, Falcon 109 to you sir.
PQ
your quote:
"Unfortunately, pilots ( also for about 30 years if not since the dawn of flight) have looked at a contract, quickly multiplied all the possible income to an unrealistic amount and then build their lifestyle right up to this limit.
When things don't work for them, they complain and try to change the contract conditions to suit them."
A typical pompous PPrune response of oversimplification from someone looking in from the outside. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but you know not of what you speak. I hope my posts will give future SIAC joiners something to think about and information that was unfortunately not available to me, despite due diligence.
International Trader, Falcon 109 to you sir.
PQ
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Doesnt surprise me, all these SIA apologists. Gentlemen - especially those still considering coming - you now see the usual line of arguments employed by management to justify themselves when unilaterally breaking a contract or reneging an agreement - it's always about their bottom line. Those who were in SIA/SQC in 2004 might recall words intimated to the effect that "just because SIA makes $1 billion dollars does not necessarily mean you must be paid a bonus". What is a man, if not for his word, i ask? And what was that about leopards and their spots? What's the bet that if anyone considering this lot actually does go, that within 2 years he'll be back on PPRUNE on a thread like this one sounding the trumpet eh?
With all due respect to the SQC guys, the fact that most of you guys are serving out a type rating bond indicates that you were not type rated when you joined (no offense intended whatsoever), while most if not all the other suitably 744 qualified guys have long since chosen to avoid SQ & SQC like the plague, electing to go with the many other airlines offering superior T&Cs. This fact alone, is telling - that those qualified & experienced on type and 'in the know' have stopped coming, in favor of other airlines.
With all due respect to the SQC guys, the fact that most of you guys are serving out a type rating bond indicates that you were not type rated when you joined (no offense intended whatsoever), while most if not all the other suitably 744 qualified guys have long since chosen to avoid SQ & SQC like the plague, electing to go with the many other airlines offering superior T&Cs. This fact alone, is telling - that those qualified & experienced on type and 'in the know' have stopped coming, in favor of other airlines.
Stinky Fart reply
With all the replies no one actually has given KB any advice - is it worth staying around hoping that things will get better!!??
My thoughts are that things will only improve when the company is in a stitch to crew the COPs - flights are getting cancelled, guys getting pulled off leave, and sickness starts to go up as crew hit max hours. Now that may sound like nivarna to SIAC, but, to me that is the time when this crowd will reassess the situation. Until then they are happy as the proverbial pig in the doodoo.
When will that happen - short term I think that if cargo crew continue to leave, new joiners dry up, and that wonderful pregnant hippo arrives then the forces of change will have arrived. Thats about 6 months from now (assuming that the hippo does not have another "setback").
For ITraders information - I think alot of the crew would have voted with their feet if it where not for the 50k that sits in a bank bond.
My thoughts are that things will only improve when the company is in a stitch to crew the COPs - flights are getting cancelled, guys getting pulled off leave, and sickness starts to go up as crew hit max hours. Now that may sound like nivarna to SIAC, but, to me that is the time when this crowd will reassess the situation. Until then they are happy as the proverbial pig in the doodoo.
When will that happen - short term I think that if cargo crew continue to leave, new joiners dry up, and that wonderful pregnant hippo arrives then the forces of change will have arrived. Thats about 6 months from now (assuming that the hippo does not have another "setback").
For ITraders information - I think alot of the crew would have voted with their feet if it where not for the 50k that sits in a bank bond.