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PAL Pilot Exodus

Old 15th Mar 2006, 09:53
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Little bit of help

We will be having vacancies soon. Problem is, it will only be in turbo prop, but employer is willing to sponsor you if you have jet time.
No need to get clearance from POEA or PAL, the operator will not require all of these. Just convert ATP license to Australian by passing IFR flight test.

Think that this is only a step. I'll tell you more of the details when you PM me how to fly your current type rating here.

I can't promise that I can help all of you, but we will try.


Hope this helps.

D6
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Old 15th Mar 2006, 13:54
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There's somebody from the PAL forum with user ID "flyjoy47" who has posted at least twice about "checking out" the discussions here on PPrune. Siyempre, something for the goats to ruminate on.

Nothing can be more tragic than telegraphing your "strajedies."

OK ba flyjoy?
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Old 15th Mar 2006, 14:29
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Originally Posted by planestupid
Guys, PPRUNE is a great way for us to voice our otherwise unheard opinions. We have to get the word out. Why should we be paid much less than industry standard when foreign companies are offering much more. We're worth more than we realize... remember LT has a lot of clout because he has the money. Then again we too have a lot of clout (at least collectively). Planes don't fly by themselves!! (Well they do acutually.. but don't tell anyone!!) There has to be unity when it comes to dealing with management. Voicing our opinions is good, but unless someone stands up and is heard.. it's useless. But who? Who in this environment of terrorized employees is going to give up what they've worked so hard for, for so many years? Who is going to risk losing their retirement? Who is going to give up their command? Who is going to sacrifice their livelihood and family? JDC? Our dead alpap? Unions work because of the mere fact that people are united. United against opportunists like LT that flaunt his wealth on the Forbes billionaire's list. http://news.inq7.net/nation/index.ph...lished_site=16
We need to be united. Not to sabotage PAL or CP, but to make it fairer and safer. Tell me who wants to get into a plane when they know that one of the pilots is straight out of flying school with 200 hours? Leaving pilots means that invaluable experience goes to other companies that reap the benefits. Why should SingCargo, Cathay, Korean Air get pilots that the Philippines has produced and paid for? I can see management's point... but they've got it all wrong. I know most of you share this view. I read it on this forum, read it in the paper, and hear it on the flightdeck. So then... What are we going to do about it???

Uh, what was so great about this post? Somebody hit the nail on the head when he said this forum would never be an avenue for redress. Guys, wake up.
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Old 15th Mar 2006, 16:35
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Originally Posted by Cessna1052
This Group is only finding ways to air their grievances just like you, meaning to throw it out in the air even if nobody cares. Why?, because they cannot do it freely on their own company Forum like the PALegroup for the fear of retaliation from the company.
So Pek, i suggest give them a break and let them do what they want, its their happiness and not yours.....Happy flying to you!
I have a better suggestion: listen to yourself first. Just because my appreciation of the entire thing is rooted in reality -and therefore opposes your naive views- you want me to stop airing MY views, "meaning to throw them out in the air?" (First time to encounter this concoction.)

But then again, is that not exactly the double-standard you, and others like you, so ardently criticize?
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Old 16th Mar 2006, 06:20
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Originally Posted by pek
I have a better suggestion: listen to yourself first. Just because my appreciation of the entire thing is rooted in reality -and therefore opposes your naive views- you want me to stop airing MY views, "meaning to throw them out in the air?" (First time to encounter this concoction.)
But then again, is that not exactly the double-standard you, and others like you, so ardently criticize?
Hey Pek, that's a bit harsh. Just because "they" don't share your views either doesn't mean their standpoint is not valid and unrealistic as you egotistically claim !!! The pilots in the Philippines have enough cause to air their views even if you think it will not mount to anything. But that's your view not theirs because while their future, their careers and their families are at stake here, they have every right to be concerned, alarmed and to air their grievances and maybe even to fire the first salvo against what they perceive as oppression and curtailing of their rights.
Cessna1052 appealed to you to "give them break" and I truly believe he said that out of good faith and not how you picked it up.Your comment about the double standard is a cheap shot and moreso baseless. Your the one who should try and "hear yourself" and see how pathetic your comments are !!! You sound like an ogre.
Guys, looks like another management plant .
D6

Last edited by DeltaSix; 16th Mar 2006 at 06:50.
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Old 16th Mar 2006, 09:52
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Originally Posted by DeltaSix
Hey Pek, that's a bit harsh. Just because "they" don't share your views either doesn't mean their standpoint is not valid and unrealistic as you egotistically claim !!! The pilots in the Philippines have enough cause to air their views even if you think it will not mount to anything. But that's your view not theirs because while their future, their careers and their families are at stake here, they have every right to be concerned, alarmed and to air their grievances and maybe even to fire the first salvo against what they perceive as oppression and curtailing of their rights.
Cessna1052 appealed to you to "give them break" and I truly believe he said that out of good faith and not how you picked it up.Your comment about the double standard is a cheap shot and moreso baseless. Your the one who should try and "hear yourself" and see how pathetic your comments are !!! You sound like an ogre.
Guys, looks like another management plant .
D6
You see poor fella, the problem with you and YOUR bunch is that everytime somebody expresses views that do not conform to yours, you accuse him/her of being a mole and want him/her to just stop. Now therein lies the cheap shot. If you believe and say that LT's boat could be rocked, in a democratic setting I have as much right to believe and say that his boat is too big to be rocked. Makes sense? Or are you too much of a bigot to admit it?

I never advocated putting a kibosh on the airing of grievances. On the contrary, that is exactly what this forum will achieve - an avenue for the expression of dissatisfaction, but not necessarily redress.

Much better to sound like an ogre than to sound like a whino.

BTW, nakakita ka na pala at nakarinig ng ogre? Galing mo dude! Ako kasi hindi pa, and it must be because I live in the real world, unlike you and YOUR naive bunch. So I'll just say that you sound like a braying donkey.
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Old 16th Mar 2006, 10:21
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Relax lang lah. I know who pek is. He's actually the only one who makes sense. The ship is indeed too big, which is why...well, he jumped ship. He's a good student of recent history: prudence is the better part of valor..............ok, if you haven't figured it out yet, remember 1998? AAAhhhh...

D6, management si pek? Yeah, right. Hahaha That's actually an insult to him. Those guys in Nichols can't get their verb to agree with their subject.

Cessna1052, say hi to FD, FG, and TZ. Happy Flying, as you love saying.

As for me, MABUHAY will always be it, although I don't get to say it anymore.
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Old 16th Mar 2006, 11:20
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Obviously Pek, we both live in two different worlds. If you have already jumped ship, then the one you call "real" is a lost world that can never be changed. It's probably easy for you to just say that the boat is too big to be rocked and "leave it be", on the otherhand, people in there are at the mercy of their employers.

No boat is too big to be rocked. Even Presidents get impeached, policies can be changed, and opinions can be swayed.Your attitude of sticking your head in the sand will not serve anyone any good. Get that through your head.

I don't know which side you're on Pek, and I don't really care.
But, if you are one of those who have jumped ship, then of all people you would understand where they ( who you call my bunch ) would be coming from. I will not subscribe to your shallow reasoning as there is more to this than what you perceive it to be.

Also, may I ask where did I say we want anyone to go away and stop posting on these forums just because they have a different view ???...... have you read my posts, where does it say ??.......... if my memory serves me, Cessna1052 even says "welcome" as we want to know their side of the story.

D6
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Old 16th Mar 2006, 12:39
  #69 (permalink)  
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You started the name-calling by saying I sounded like an ogre, which only really exists in storybooks and in the inner recesses of hyper-imaginative minds. Do unto others, dude.

Not only can Presidents be impeached, they can even be overthrown, but only with what is called a "critical mass" backed by the military. Last month's coup failed precisely because there was no critical mass the military could rally around.

But you see, the problem with LT is not anywhere near trying to impeach/overthrow a President. Again, and I'm not surprised, you misread the situation. In a Third-World Republic like our beloved LUZVIMINDA, a Chinese - or anyone - with some serious dough will have every politician of consequence tethered to his/her tiny fingertips. Don't forget, he survived Marcos, Cory, Ramos, Erap, and as sure as hell will survive Ate Glo. Needless to say, he's got cunning and ,again, plenty of cash. Get that to YOUR head.

"My attitude of sticking my..." Well, my approach to life was never gung-ho, and you know what? This sort of attitude really works. Gosh.

If you don't care which side I'm on, why then do you even bother to launch your puerile tirades against me? You have got to be one of the most inconsistent blokes I have come across. YOU grow up!

To my fellow PALers (I used to be one of you), the element of surprise is key to any battle. Trust me, I know whereof I speak (unlike some people here).

To the others who post here, you will be well-advised that whatever "guerilla" tactics you make known here will only prove inimical to the interests of those left behind.

Last edited by pek; 16th Mar 2006 at 13:12.
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Old 17th Mar 2006, 03:34
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Guys, stop this word fight. It won't help us or those inside. You all have your points. But we cannot impose our beiefs to others, lets keep an open mind and not be emotional. We have to be united if we want to rock the boat.

I agree that if we or those still inside have strajedies to go around these proposals of management or government to hold pilots, better keep it under wraps. If those guys find out about it early, they can also counter act on it. We know how they think, and what they are capable of doing. As they say "lahat nababayaran". We know who has the capability of paying to get what he needs or what he wants.

Also, if we do it here by PM, how can we be sure that we can trust the person corresponding with us? Hmmmm. quite a situation here. Any of you guys suggest anything?

But regarding our concerns, feelings, or whatever about the situation, we can voice it out here. For others, they might think that it is useless. But for some, it is the only way to voice out without being prejudiced. And I know for a fact that some management pilots or staff are looking at this website.

Bottom line? Let's be united. Being divided is the reason why pilots are abused.
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Old 19th Mar 2006, 12:19
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Have you seen the latest claim by PAL management that PAL pilots earn as much as US$4000-7000? Where do they get these figures?

Can somebody from inside photocopy his/her payslip and give a copy to the media also. Just to show the public what we are really paid.

I am sick of all these media mileage that management is doing to make us pilots greedy. As a matter of fact, the pay can be beared, but the treatment, cannot.
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Old 19th Mar 2006, 13:51
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Too bad you guys are so frustrated with PAL and others, but at least you live under the sun, in a beautiful country.
My question: do those companies hire expats with not too much experience, ie Canadian ATP, 2000hrs mostly as instructor, no jet but an expired TR on 733?
Hi from Alberta (-25C in winter, see my problem...)
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Old 19th Mar 2006, 14:18
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I haven't heard of any airline in the Phils that hire expat pilots, sorry. Well, I see some foreigners in the General Aviation, but I'm not sure of their status in their company.

The counrty is great, the people are great, the airline is great, BUT the management is not.
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Old 20th Mar 2006, 07:17
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Liars?

Lucio Tan has done so much for PAL pilots
Mar 18, 2006
Updated 01:57am (Mla time)
Inquirer
THIS refers to the column (“What makes pilots special?”) of Solita Monsod. (Inquirer, 3/11/06) Allow us to set the record straight:
1. Over the past few years, Philippine Airlines (PAL) has taken significant steps to address the needs of our pilots, among them: improved pilots’ retirement package by 50 percent; use of part of their sick leaves, a privilege lost in the wake of the 1998 illegal strike; trip-pass benefits even without completing the required years of service; an incentive for technical stops on international flights, a benefit previously given only to the cabin crew; the Pilots Retirement Plan and the Pilots Occupational Disability Plan.
Also, PAL has asked the government to grant our pilots an income-tax holiday to match the tax-free status enjoyed by their Filipino colleagues in foreign airlines. For the long term, PAL has ordered five more trainer aircraft costing $1.5 million, which will enable us to double the output of new pilots to 56 a year.
2. The courts, not the Estrada administration, declared the 1998 pilots strike “illegal.” The Court of Appeals, in its August 2001 decision, held the strikers to have lost their employment status with PAL. The Supreme Court upheld PAL’s position in January 2002.
3. Since 1999, PAL has given yearly increases to pilots: base pay—35 percent; productivity pay for those with flying time of 60 hours and below -- 227 percent; for those exceeding 60 hours -- 161 percent.
4. The gross monthly salary (plus allowances) of our captains ranges from $4,000 to $7,000. Missed out in Monsod’s computation were the 20 percent contribution to the retirement fund and the 5 percent contribution to the disability fund.
Our medical benefits for them and their familes are among the most generous in the industry. In all, the total remuneration package for our senior pilots is not much off the $9,000-per-month (at the low end) offer of foreign carriers.
Consider, too, the unquantifiable social costs of taking overseas jobs, such as the pain of separation from family. Also, the job contract is for 3 to 5 years only -- enough time for the foreign carriers to train their local pilots -- after which the Filipino hires are no longer needed and they no longer have their previous career jobs to fall back on.
Monsod said that Dr. Lucio Tan treats our pilots “like dirt.” Considering all the initiatives Dr. Tan has taken for our pilots -- a vastly improved benefits package; yearly increases in pay; grant of additional incentives; a secure career with the national flag carrier -- such statement was most unkind.
Our company cares deeply about all our employees and it is our policy to provide them the best compensation and benefits package within our capacity, commensurate with their hard work and dedication to duty.
JAIME J. BAUTISTA, president and chief operating officer, Philippine Airlines, P.O. Box 1344, Makati City
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Old 20th Mar 2006, 08:01
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Yep, through their teeth.
You deleted your earlier post?
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Old 20th Mar 2006, 08:06
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Originally Posted by embrunman
Too bad you guys are so frustrated with PAL and others, but at least you live under the sun, in a beautiful country.
My question: do those companies hire expats with not too much experience, ie Canadian ATP, 2000hrs mostly as instructor, no jet but an expired TR on 733?
Hi from Alberta (-25C in winter, see my problem...)
There used to be a Portuguese in Cebu Pac. Before he joined, he was already married to a Filipina, who happened to be a niece of a Gaming official. He left the airline some years back, to migrate there. Maybe he prefers cold-weather operations.
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Old 20th Mar 2006, 16:18
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Wow

Mr. Jaime Bautista, you are joking right? If you can put this on paper (& I mean a legal document) that you are giving PAL pilots $4,000 - $7,000 with a guaranteed retirement package, I'm packing my bags. I'll see you in Gate 1 in a moments notice.
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Old 20th Mar 2006, 17:59
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Just wanted to add more info, this was quoted from AFP :
PAL scales back expansion plans amid pilot exodus
March 20 2006
MANILA: An ambitious US$1 billion (US$1 = RM3.70) six-year expansion plan by national flag carrier Philippine Airlines (PAL) could be cut back if the airline fails to halt an exodus of pilots seeking better pay elsewhere.
"This is not a problem unique to PAL," Jaime Bautista the airline's president and chief operating officer said in an interview.
"Many airlines throughout the region are facing the same problem. The industry is expanding so fast, especially in India and China, there simply isn't enough experienced pilots to go round.
"So the easiest and cheapest way to get your pilots is to go to the established carriers and offer packages that make it hard for many pilots to refuse.
"It is cheap because you don't have to pay for their training because someone else has done that for you."
Late last year, the airline unveiled a US$1 billion expansion plan with the purchase of nine A320s with options for another five.
The plan was to have the new aircraft come into service between 2006 and 2008, with delivery on the options between 2009 and 2012 should the airline take them up.
"We have deferred delivery this year and will take up one next year," he said.
"It is not critical but we are planning to play it safe at least for the time being until we can stabilise the exodus. It is no point having the aircraft if you don't have the pilots," Bautista said.
A forum of local aviation officials in Manila last week warned that with the rate local pilots and mechanics were being poached by foreign airlines local carriers could end up grounded by 2010.
Some 140 senior pilots and over 1,900 aircraft mechanics have left for higher paying jobs overseas in the last five years the forum was told. "Being the biggest carrier in the country of course we feel it more than the others," Bautista said.
Of the 700 pilots who carry air transport licences (licences that qualify them to be captains) employed in the Philippines, PAL employs 440 of them.
From 2003 until the end of February this year PAL had lost 78 of its senior pilots to foreign competitors.
Bautista said a captain with PAL can gross a salary of between US$4,000 and US$7,000 a month.
"By local standards at least this is a very good salary but how can you match competitors, especially those in the Middle East and India, paying double and tax free. Here, our pilots are taxed at 32 per cent," he said.
Airbus Industrie in its global markets forecast for 2004-2023 estimates that the number of passenger aircraft in service will double to 21,759 in 2023, from the 10,838 at the end of 2003. - AFP

Best of luck guys.....
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Old 21st Mar 2006, 01:18
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Angel keep posting but stop fighting

all the discussion here makes the management people see how bitter we feel to their ways.they can spread their lies on the papers for all to see.they have the money for that.but putting in your quotes here sends a strong statement to those who can make the big decision.it's pilots who have the EDGE now and not management.i can say that others who've been monitoring the discussions here are starting to rethink their stand on not working abroad. just a little more push guys and enough shouving.
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Old 21st Mar 2006, 03:11
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r2d2,

Our names are on that infamous list, remember?

batuts,

If Lucio's and Lilybeth's minions are able to monitor Pprune, why can't Winnie Monsod and the rest of Philippine media? Get my drift?
While you're at it, spread the word to the Cabin Crew as well. If Pprune is the only available avenue where muzzled voices can be heard, so be it.

Judging by the complexion of that Manila Times editorial, at least it can be said that the media, by and large, is on the pilots' side.
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