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MAS Floodgates Open(Merged).

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MAS Floodgates Open(Merged).

Old 18th May 2005, 02:57
  #21 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: SE Asia
Posts: 72

C'mon! I don't believe the situation could be as bad as described by Jon Lei.

At the end of the day we are professional and you all should see where we are coming from. Most offered a position at MAS is seeking a better condition.

So either you guys go on strike and we will honor your picket lines or.....
freightdriver is offline  
Old 18th May 2005, 05:37
  #22 (permalink)  
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Location: Over International Airspace
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Strike in MAS is not an option. MAS considered as national carrier. Any strike talk will be considered as sabotage to the government. And government will use the ISA (Internal Security Act), ie jail without court order for at least 2 years.
Gov has a special branch (SB) stationed in any company where there is a gov interest. Latest SB was stationed at crewing section (dept which monitor crew utilization) after the report leak that a lot of flt delayed coz of nil pilots. The idea was to find out if pilots are sabotaging MAS by purposely refusing or delaying any flt.
The fact is most pilots are limited by FTL. Most are reaching the max allowed FTL.
The monthly roster now is just another piece of paper which by the end of the month, we might just do 60% of the rostered flt. The rest either called up frm standby or we just can't do the flt coz of the high hours.....
Giant88 is offline  
Old 18th May 2005, 06:43
  #23 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: a place in the east
Posts: 270
latest issue are that all expat going for MAS from Indon, are non GA pilot's . MH and GA have sort of understanding : GA will deliverd or fill in the pax for GA route in int'l flight including cargo which is operate by MH fleet and MH must not accepted any GA pilot's applying for MAS except those who's assigned by GA in the Join Operation for B744/A330, so people must be aware by now that expat coming to work for MAS are not from GA, those are from other domestic company such as Lion, Mandala, Batavia Air etc.
speedtwoten is offline  
Old 18th May 2005, 07:44
  #24 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2005
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Posts: 101
Kaptin M

Upgrade F/O's who are not yet ready, in terms of experience?
Actually Kaptin there are many first officers on the 737 who already have more than the required "experience" for promotions to the wide body fleets, but can't all be released because.............the cow jumped over the moon, the little dog laughed to see such fun and the dish ran away with the spoon. Once the cadets get on line I am sure they would put more SVN's out.

What is really sad though is the lack of accountability. For a company to be "national interest", the people put at important enough positions should at least be held accounable for the exodus.

If it was a surprise, then they can be excused. From what I hear the management was informed of this impending exodus way back in 2003. The fact that they did not prevent this from happening, or even try, just tells me what kind of people sit in office in this company.

Brianigham is offline  
Old 18th May 2005, 11:52
  #25 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: sailing
Posts: 26

Knowing full well the situation here and you are still pushing to come over here is fine and a decision to "make a better living" is respected but please do not go on and say you will honour our picket lines because by coming here, you are already not honouring our cause..... Aside from that, if you do come please take our advice and read the fine print on your contract and make sure it is not erasable ink otherwise you will be joining the picket lines regardless ....
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Old 18th May 2005, 15:54
  #26 (permalink)  
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And please don't turn green green when local boy get payrise,bonus,special payments etc, because your contract say nothing about it!!
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Old 18th May 2005, 16:49
  #27 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2005
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Posts: 101
Hi frieghtdriver.

As long as you stay out for the time being you will be respected as a fellow pilot. Come over now and you will no longer be one of us. You will not be given the courtesy of a fellow pilot. Thats the facts bro. Stay out . Then when we get this situation rectified I am sure we will invite you in with open arms. The pilot shortage is not going to go away soon. Its the mismanagement that we are trying to highlight now and the general terms of our career. Most other airline Pilots should get it! . Those few guys who have got in despite knowing the situation are traitors as far as I am concerned. They are going to be very lonely, and I dont wish them well at all. ( Cant believe I just said that .but hey!) Stay out for now bro and that would be the sentiments of nearly all of us. Come in when things have calmed down and you will see that the pilots in MAS, Malay or not will not even notice you are an expat.

Hope that gives you an idea how those ten or so guys have already started screwing things for us. And it not the money bro. We are used to being payed less. We are used to being screwed by management, but this time they have really pushed us too far with too many lies to the BOD. Too many things in the MOU not being honoured, Too many terms and conditions modified to screw us.

Last edited by Brianigham; 18th May 2005 at 17:09.
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Old 19th May 2005, 08:44
  #28 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Aboo Dubby
Posts: 73
Post 3rd World Airline Management With 1st World Workers

Freightdriver, as you would now realise, the situation has turned ugly.As much as the locals would like to embrace you, the timing is a little off.

Picketing in Malaysia will get you a 'go straight to jail' card.As it is, the Mismanagers of MAS are telling everybody including the powers that be in the Gov't that the MAS pilots are 'sabotaging' the schedules, when it is through their own mismanagement that flights get 'retimed' (get use to that word, as MAS never has any delays.....all are retimed ) So, you can't join the picket line, there is none whatsoever.These guys are nowhere near the edge of a cliff, but the mismanagers are pushing them there!

Again, if you decide to come, it will be at your own peril as MAS or rather the mismanagers of MAS will make their own 'interpretations' of your contract at your own expense.This should be your bigger concern than being 'boycotted' by the locals.Remember, if they arbitrarily screw the locals......what's gonna happen to you?

BTW, for those of you not in the know, MAS has the required number of local pilots with experience to fill the slots, unfortunately, through creative mismanagement there is now a catch 22 situation where, locals can't be promoted as there is a serious manpower shortage at all fleets.This came about by the arrogance of the mismanagers to acknowledge the 'exodus' & rectify the succession of retiring pilots.In other words the mismangers (not a spelling error) "Screw Up Big Time!"
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Old 20th May 2005, 00:59
  #29 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 122
MAS Exodus

Looks like the movement OUT of MAS is gaining momentum. We can expect a considerable number of resignations very soon from the ranks of the senior captains and senior first officers.

Plenty of opportunities from all and sundry to join the airline that "goes beyond expectations."
MAStake is offline  
Old 20th May 2005, 03:07
  #30 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: a place in the east
Posts: 270
you think it will scare MAS all pilot of MAS may go, and the Indon desperate driver are keep coming MAS management has known that so nothing to worry them, you are the one's who worrying MAS not the management, you are nothing to them, so good bye lah
speedtwoten is offline  
Old 20th May 2005, 09:05
  #31 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: SE Asia
Posts: 72

I resent your labeling of Indon drivers as being desperate, they can't help it if the local economy can't pay a decent driver's wage and have to look elsewhere for greener pasture....

For me being both a NorthAmerican and an Asian I chose to be here to be close to my roots and besides NorthAmerica is not doing to hot in terms of driver's market.

I could appreciate how the influx of indon drivers will cause tension to those who chooses to stay on at MAS, but do keep in mind at the end of the day is about survival and being able to pay the bills..sad but that's the fact jack.

Go figure why there is so many westerners working in the fareast, like they say the grass always looks greener on the other side....or girls or whatever floats your boat!
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Old 20th May 2005, 09:25
  #32 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: SE Asia
Posts: 72
Thank you

Thank you all for your comments and inputs on this difficult subject

I hope I have made myself clear enough that I genuinely feel for what is going on at MAS presently as so many of you have pionted out.

As far as my decision to go or not to go, I still have ways to go before they offer me anything (sim ride, 2nd interview etc) so in the mean time I will have to do some soul searching and hopefuly something else will turn up (with less headache).

I have been trough what is going on at MAS a few years back, so I know what you guys are talking about. In my case only a few stayed on with the cause and ended up without a job, it's hard to confince your fellow drivers that management can't replace all of us at once...

Reality: I am going to be without a job again soon and would like to get settled somewhere, I am beating the driver's statistic, I actually have a very supportive loving family who I would still like to support on my driver's pay and lived happily ever after.....blah blah...

but that's my story...again thanks for all your sincere responds and anytime you're in WIII area give me a shout first round on me....
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Old 20th May 2005, 10:44
  #33 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 122
It's not a matter of being afraid of the Indonesians. After all, we have more than a million of them over here, legal and illegal. Another hundred or so won't make much difference. Everyone is entitled to seek a better life.

MAS pilots won't make your life difficult. But if I were a foreigner seeking employment with MAS I would be very wary of the way the toad and his cronies interpret the contract.

The grass may be greener on the other side of the fence because the soil is more fertile. It would serve you well, however, to note that the gardener uses human waste (read Local Pilots) to fertilize the land.
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Old 20th May 2005, 14:17
  #34 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: a place in the east
Posts: 270
freightdriver and MAStake , you must be on the cargo, what I mean TOADS don't care whatever the local's driver would do, the show must go on, and you both right everyone is entiteld for a better living, but I believe you have to come in the right time and nicely welcome
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Old 20th May 2005, 22:33
  #35 (permalink)  
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From my (almost 30 years) in airlines, MAStake, it is my opinion, that threats of "considerable numbers" of pilots leaving are simply that - threats, which rarely come to fruition, leaving the pilots who made those threats look stupid, and giving management more confidence to indulge in further cutbacks of the remaining pilots' conditions.

The FACT is it takes a helluva lot, before a pilot will decide to uproot his entire previous life, and leave his friends and family (and association with his employer).
Pilots are eternal optimists, hoping for a new change in direction with a change of management, and as a result are usually willing to stick it out for the long haul, rather than resign.

Yes, there ARE much better rewarded jobs than MAS, on offer with other companies. And it is a shame to see the very loyal, and HIGHLY professional pilots of Malaysian not being rewarded as they deserve, (having flown with many pilots from other countries, I - and others who have worked for MAS - can state that, in all honesty....you guys DO, individually, have VERY good standards.)
But sense of family, State, and company will see the vast majority of you remain in the hope that there is an impending improvement - even if it's finally by way of an unleashed Ringitt.

Reverse the situation, how many of you in MAS would take a job in Indonesia, placed in the same situation as the Indons?
Similar cultures, lifestyles, language, and your new country of residence only a stone's throw from home.

Supporting each other, will benefit all.
Scrapping between yourselves, diverts the attention away from where your focus should be!
Kaptin M is offline  
Old 21st May 2005, 01:10
  #36 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 122
Foreign pilots are most welcome and the opportunities are aplenty. It was a note of caution to those intending to join that terms and conditions have been eroded over the years and the fact that almost 100 local pilots have left says a lot when you consider that most pilots find it difficult to uproot.

Yes, standards are high among the pilots and many acknowledge that . It is the standard of ethics among the managers that all of us question.

We don't want pilots, be they foreign or local, to be cannon fodder. In the community of pilots we support each other and it is only fair to remind those intending to join that the greener pastures may be just an illusion that will vanish when those who call the shots feel they are threatened.

There is a lot of difference between scrapping with each other and a friendly note of caution.

We do understand that uprooting, be it from Malaysia to the desert or Indonesia to the greener pastures, takes a lot of consideration. Shouldn't the pilots be given more information before making such a move?
MAStake is offline  
Old 21st May 2005, 03:39
  #37 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: SE Asia
Posts: 72

Though I agree with some of your points MAStake, and do appreciate your insight to the problem from your perspective.

The fact remains at the moment MAS is short of pilots, (pls confirm this) meaning if they can't get people to come in and keep their a/c flying on sched they will loose more money which means they will not able to meet any of the demmands of present MAS employees (Pilots, Flight Attendant, Ground staff, Maint and many others) THis is all theory of course, airline management in recent history has always claim loss to avoid improving conditions for employees.

So first and foremost the mission at hand is to try to save the carrier and I tend to agree with Kaptin M in that a better way to approach this is to have reps of the pilot group included in the hiring process of additional expat drivers and inform them of present goals and mission.

What you have to keep in mind as well is the offer as far as I know, new drivers will work for a 3rd party agent and not directly for MAS.

dunno if I make any sense or not, care to comment Kaptin M? (lack of sleep on my part)
freightdriver is offline  
Old 21st May 2005, 05:57
  #38 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: HKG
Posts: 1,385
I don't know if its a reflection of the pressures MAS pilots are under at the moment, but as a regular into KUL I have noticed a decrease in the professionalism of the MAS crews. Twice in the last week we were impeded by MAS aircraft who were not seeing the "big picture" and made life difficult for both ATC and ourselves.

Hoping that you MAS pilots can get a satisfactory resoulution to your problems with the company before any incident occurs.
Good Luck
BusyB is offline  
Old 21st May 2005, 07:16
  #39 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Aboo Dubby
Posts: 73
Post History Lesson


Obviously, there is more than what meets the eye on the present situation in MAS.

Ok, we have known so far for a fact that nearly 10% of the locals have left within a period of 1 year to date.This number doesn't include the attrition rate of the expats (which are dynamic in any airline).

The present 'apparent' shortage of pilots were caused by the mismanagers (of Flight Operations, consisting of pilots themselves) duping the upper management & hoodwinking the DCAM through a period of 10 years.Now, the fruits of their labour have turned to bite them back very hard in their well licked posterior.This was a well executed plan, with a disregard for ICAO SARP's by nearly doubling the max hours per year limit (through the augmented crew operations) & was only stopped after MAS ops were pressured by 'external' forces.This practise is now being copied by other operators around the world who work hand in glove with their respectives CAA or DCA equivalent Thanks a lot for that MAS And we all think SQ was shrewd This inflation of 'extra' man hours available, bolden the mismanagers to promise almost everything including the moon to their superiors, not to mention making all the managers scoring brownie points!

Obviously, all good things must come to an end, & the straw that broke the camel's back had been thrown ironically after the Camel was ousted & 'Doctorcon' was installed to stop the internal politicking of the ambitious management pilots (including a power crazed shortie) If you guys wanna stop me here, & say it sounds like the new Star Wars movie, well unfortunatley the storyline has a few parallels

The forces of good & evil battled it out....whooops wrong story Well, after the dust settled & a new Boss was installed (both the new management & the SGMFO) things went downhill again for the pilots.Again it takes a pilot to screw a pilot, & these guys are desperate as their retirement age is coming up & they need to line up their nest.Again, promises were made.Hence the situation that the local pilots are in now.As all leave are being frozen to meet up with the demand of the new trailblazing routes & extra frequencies, the core issues of the locals work rule (the MoU) which is inclusive of the approved FTL limits (by DCAM) were dispensed to meet up with the new patterns.No new extra cadets were available to relief the manpower shortage as the mismanagers promised to their bosses that they will be able to absorb the requirements even when they earlier theatened the pilots of retrenchment when the financial crisis happened & again when the SARS epidemic took hold.To add salt to the gaping wound, the screws are tightened to squeeze what ever little perks that the pilots have to make MAS more 'cost efficient'.Push come to shove, some have made the move (including yours truly) as we had enough of this circus called MAS.

So currently, the bosses applied a 'smokescreen' to dupe the Joe public & more importantly,their superiors (even the Gov't, I believe) that the numerous flight retiming are caused by pilots leaving for the unexpected 'pull' factors of other airlines & not of their incompetencies.They also went on the offensive with a media coverage of the 'pilots greed' in asking for more money & boldly suggests that the pilots are 'blackmailing' them.The truth is they did it to themselves.

So guys, ask yourselves if you truly want to be part of this.Or would you rather wait a while till the issues are settled.As it is, my ex-colleagues do inform me that whatever happens, the pilot shortage will still remain for the short to medium term.Even with the 'apparent' 300 cadets coming in, they will all only be online in a period of 5 years (most optimistic planning at the current rate with no expansion!).

As for us 'traitors' (this term was used by the SGMFO in a meeting with the pilots) who made the excruciatingly painful decision to venture out for a better living for our family, we will always be a 'persona non grata' to MAS even after our unflinching & unwavering loyalty to MAS In other words our bridges were burned the day we handed our resignation letters........ Unlike others in the professional industries (managers,CEO's etc) which are welcomed back to their former employers, pilots who work for vindictive airlines aren't accorded the same treatment.Sad, very sad indeed.

A word of caution to those who think that working in MAS through a contract agency would bypass some problems, it will unfortunately & effectively create more.Cases have happened to earlier contractees where their contract were not honoured & the agency couldn't (or is it wouldn't) do anything to 'rock the boat'.Again my sincere advice, be wary of 'strangers bearing gifts'

Last edited by EY777; 21st May 2005 at 09:37.
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Old 21st May 2005, 15:17
  #40 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: a place in the east
Posts: 270
yes I found the agency for expat in KL you may contact TransAsia Aviation, Mr. Azis Taufik at +60 3 31413446 jalan Sri Bayu 7. Taman Sri Bayu. Bagan Lalang. 43950 Sungai Pelek Selangor, may be they can find you job other than MAS
speedtwoten is offline  

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