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8 year years in the East

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8 year years in the East

Old 12th May 2004, 08:21
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8 year years in the East

After spending 8 years in East during my twenties (90s)and having travelled and explored most of the Asian countries. I'm looking to return except with my JAR ATPL 500 hrs and CPL/IR. If i'm prepared to pay for a type rating whats the chances of getting a job?
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Old 12th May 2004, 09:11
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Please do the professional pilot community and yourself a favor, go flight instruct, fly checks in the middle of the night, fly skydivers, etc. until you have the qualifications to be hired by an airline. When you become a captain at said airline and have a type rating and experience on type then go looking for work in Asia. Please don't offer to buy yourself a job. It demeans you as a professional and hurts those of us trying to make a living in this business.

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Old 12th May 2004, 12:01
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http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...t=typhoonpilot

"Don't let one person's opinion make you eliminate Taiwan as a possible place to work."

"Please do the professional pilot community and yourself a favor, go flight instruct, fly checks in the middle of the night, fly skydivers, etc. until you have the qualifications to be hired by an airline. When you become a captain at said airline and have a type rating and experience on type then go looking for work in Asia. Please don't offer to buy yourself a job. It demeans you as a professional and hurts those of us trying to make a living in this business."

The GA path is one way of getting into an airline job. It has its merits, and it is also not the only way into an airline job. There are more efficient ways, in the way that several airlines train ab-initio pilots for their own airline, so are such paths less safe or respectable? The point is, the type rating comes at a cost of either money or time or a combination of both, someone ultimately "pays" for it. Whether it is paid off by working off a bond (whether the bond is fair or not is an altogether separate issue), through a security deposit, from years of experience at some other airline, or the applicant's own money (borrowed or not), are all various ways of "paying" for it.

If I wish to take a gamble and stump up cash for my own rating, how does that demean me as a professional? If you extend your logic, by paying for my own flying school education I am also demeaning myself as a professional.

Also, by your logic I should look for work in Asia only AFTER I become captain WITH a type rating AND (suitable) experience. By whose mandate do you impose these rather strenuous requirements? Why do major airlines in Asia and the rest of the world not comply with your suggestions then?
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Old 12th May 2004, 14:37
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Not sure why you brought up the other thread, that was a completely different question. Taiwan is a good place to work, but I would only ever go there as a Captain.

Nothing wrong with ab-initio, as long as you aren't paying for it with cash. If a company trains you then you should agree to work there for a reasonable period of time after completion of training. The same would apply to a bond if it is within reason.

The problem I have is with someone starting out by offering to pay for a job. For goodness sake you don't see people walking into bank offering to pay for training so they can be a teller. Probably better examples of this but you get my meaning. Why do pilots do this ? it only serves to harm the profession. Obviously you have to pay a certain amount to get a commercial multi certificate but it should stop there.

Truthmaster has the qualifications to get a job in Europe and start building some time. When he is ready to find a job in Asia they will still be there. Sure it might take a few more years but he will be much better off going as a qualified Captain than as an F.O. ( excepting Cathay and Dragonair ).

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Old 12th May 2004, 16:38
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I brought up the other thread because I wanted to show that just as your message was not to listen to "one person's opinion", you have now become that same opinion of disapproval in this thread.

While you have your opinion that one should not pay (money) for one's own rating, I disagree.

My POV is that if given a choice between exchanging a fixed sum of money for a rating as opposed to serving out a bond in exchange for same, I'd take the cash option anyday. We have different ways of assessing the "value" of a rating, and that's fine. To me, the mischief or misery that comes from parting with a sum of money (in return for a rating) is predictable and definite, but the mischief or misery that comes from serving out a time-based agreement can be unlimited simply because we know not what tomorrow brings (as 911 and SARS etc has shown). This is probably why your mortgage is based on a sum of money to be repaid rather than a bond to be served out by working for the bank for x years.

You agree that "you have to pay a certain amount to get a commercial multi certificate but it should stop there", in other words, it's not the principle of paying your own way that you are against, but the degree / extent to which you should pay. I think it's OK to pay some more for the rating, but you don't think so. Fair enough then.

The answer to Truthmaster's question: "If i'm prepared to pay for a type rating whats the chances of getting a job?" perhaps is "we don't really know, it depends, short answer - maybe not a whole lot".

Truthmaster is not "offering to pay for a job". He is asking what his chances are if he takes this gamble - there is not yet a job offer on the table which is conditional upon getting his own rating. So if the job is not there, logically he cannot offer to pay for something that does not exist.

I also cannot see how paying money for my own rating can "demean" myself as a professional and/or "hurt" my fellow pilots "trying to make a living in this business". It's just a business gamble that I take. If I end up collecting ratings, then so be it, that's my problem.
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Old 12th May 2004, 17:15
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By pushing your way in with an endorsment that you paid for just to get the job, you are not making yourself look good to the pilots you will be flying with, and in some companies (not naming any) they will give you a very hard time. Pay your dues like everyone else and don't try to run before you've started walking.
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Old 12th May 2004, 18:37
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My POV is that if given a choice between exchanging a fixed sum of money for a rating as opposed to serving out a bond in exchange for same, I'd take the cash option anyday. We have different ways of assessing the "value" of a rating, and that's fine. To me, the mischief or misery that comes from parting with a sum of money (in return for a rating) is predictable and definite, but the mischief or misery that comes from serving out a time-based agreement can be unlimited simply because we know not what tomorrow brings (as 911 and SARS etc has shown).
I think your logic is flawed. In today's environment you would be much better off having the bond versus paying cash up front. If the company you work for goes out of business you won't be out any money with the bond option. Of course I don't much care for bonds either. Training costs are a cost of doing business for the airline they shouldn't have to be born by the employee and in most other industries they are not.

Truthmaster is not "offering to pay for a job". He is asking what his chances are if he takes this gamble - there is not yet a job offer on the table which is conditional upon getting his own rating. So if the job is not there, logically he cannot offer to pay for something that does not exist.
The problem here that you don't seem to understand is that by starting off with an offer to pay for your own training you are starting from a position of inferiority. This method pretty much shows the employer how they can treat you for the term of your employment as you are obviously willing to whore yourself out just to fly a shiny new jet.

I also cannot see how paying money for my own rating can "demean" myself as a professional and/or "hurt" my fellow pilots "trying to make a living in this business". It's just a business gamble that I take. If I end up collecting ratings, then so be it, that's my problem.
Then you are truly blind. The more people that will do as Truthmaster do the less companies will be willing to pay for our services. Simple as that.


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Old 12th May 2004, 19:20
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Sorry Typhoonpilot, there is no applaud emticon but I still applaud you for what you are saying it is absolutely correct. It is people like Thrustmaster that give companies the idea they can do whatever they want whenever they want to their pilots because they will just take it in the a** anyways. If he/she were smart they'd take your words into serious consideration
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Old 12th May 2004, 23:16
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Thanks gentlemen

After working in 5 contintents and travelling in over 70 countries plus making my wedge, time is not on my side. So I am looking to jump thro the hoops a little quicker, I don't fancy sitting in a small piston going up and down the beach for another 3000 hrs. If it looks unproffesional it isn't. I've sweated to make my money and I'm sweating spending it. The latter gentleman is right I'm talking about the gamble!
P.S "thrustmaster ...........I wish
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Old 13th May 2004, 00:49
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So how many hours do you have total??? Most airlines require you to have around 500 hours on type, so paying for your endorsement may not be enough, unless you have 2000 hours u probably won't even get on a bizjet and if you don't have at least 4000 no major airline will even look at your application.


BTW, several major airlines such as Federal Express don't look to favourable on pilots who try to buy themselves a job.
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Old 13th May 2004, 03:54
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truthmaster will never get a job in Taiwan with the experience he has. no experience no job! period...............
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Old 13th May 2004, 04:59
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Truthmaster,

The practice of purchasing type ratings is quite common in many countries. Even the United States has a very large "famous" airline that requires all new pilots to pay for their type ratings.

I myself would rather get paid to get a type, as opposed to paying for it, but it is a way to look attractive to some airlines, where a type is necessary. The problem with most Asian carriers (Cathay and Dragonair excluded) is that they require significant time in type.

Good Luck,

Do what YOU feel is right.

Cheers,
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Old 13th May 2004, 05:27
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Truthmaster, do what you have to do to get the job you want. I've been a so called "professional pilot" for many (too many) years, and have yet to meet a pilot who has serious concerns with paying for your own type rating. Now I would NOT recommend flying for free, that is a negative in my mind and many I know. Even if you have to pay for your training, you should definately be paid something once on the line.

good luck to you.
 
Old 13th May 2004, 09:00
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Truthmaster

I was starting to wonder if all my fellow pilots were still lost in the old economy somewhere. But now a couple more have spoken up in support of getting your own type rating. It is still a gamble in this part of the world, yes.

I did not pay for my rating, I worked off a bond and am now bond free. But I don't sneer at those who have paid for their own type rating either.

Don't let scary words from anti-typers deter you - in every company there will always be the schoolyard bullies who will pick on you just because you are different. They are not the ones who hired you, they are merely people who feel insecure about your presence. They are the ones with the problem, not you. I have met such types myself in the airline I work for because, for example, I was a "college boy" and they weren't. They are, as are all bullies, of no consequence.
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Old 13th May 2004, 10:38
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Even the United States has a very large "famous" airline that requires all new pilots to pay for their type ratings.
If you are referring to Southwest that is not a correct statement. Southwest requires you to have a type rating not pay for a type rating. How you get the type rating is your own business. True, some people do choose to go buy one to make themselves qualify for the job.

The point I keep trying to make here though is that it isn't very good for any of us for people to start a job search with the idea that they are willing to pay for their own training. Haven't we already paid enough just to get the basic ratings through Commercial-Multi ? What other industries require you to pony up additional funds once you meet the basic qualifications ? and, stay with me on this, if nobody was willing to pay for their own training that would force employers to pay for it ( as they bloody well should in the first place ).

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Old 13th May 2004, 19:03
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Typhoonpilot,

quote "If you are referring to Southwest that is not a correct statement. Southwest requires you to have a type rating not pay for a type rating. How you get the type rating is your own business. True, some people do choose to go buy one to make themselves qualify for the job."


Please, I know of knowbody handing out typeratings for free to some people. Most people have to pay, unless they worked for a 737 operator prior to joining Southwest. From what I here, they, those that are typed from previous operators, are in the minority at Southwest, though there are some.

Keep in mind, I agree with you that all employers SHOULD type you on their bill as an employee. That would be a perfect world. We do not work in a perfect world. It is a world of capitalism. The most qualified individual in the world we live in is not always the one to get the job. That goes for your airline as well as I'm sure you know. Don't get me wrong, Emirates is an excellent airline in many ways. But every airline in the world is, to some extent, about who you know, or how cheap you will be able to be trained. Hence self sponored type rating schemes.

I understand your argument about how 1 guy does it, many will, but there are way too many pilots accross the globe currently, or who have been, for many many years, paying for their training, paying for flight hours, paying for types, etc.. If this individual is one of the FEW to go against the trend, he will be the one to possibly loose out on a job. And for a battle that is impossible to win. Pilots way before both you and I, started this trend. It is not something to go away. What we can do as current pilots is fight management on these issues. Getting stuff like this in contracts. We should not be punishing individual keen new pilots.

At least these are my views, everbody is entitled to their own opinions. To each his own.

Cheers,
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Old 14th May 2004, 09:27
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Sony,

"Please, I know of knowbody handing out typeratings for free to some people"

Please do not make silly statements like this as it does the industry no good at all in the end. There are simply not people just handing them out to people as you suggest.
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Old 14th May 2004, 12:22
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If you don't have the minimum flying reqs, you could have all the ratings in the world, you are still not going to get a job
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Old 15th May 2004, 10:31
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Absolutely...you want to waste money on jet type ratings with only 500 TT you fill your boots.

Then send off resumes to all the asian airlines that own examples of what you're typed on.....and then wait for the replies.

You'll get none but don't get upset....you were, after all, warned.

Go off and build several thousand hours (5+ even better), with some multi turbine command time if possible, and then if you can't get a jet job the old fashioned way, only then think about buying a type rating.

Asian carriers, with a few exceptions, only hire expat captains. Most have localisation programs that mean a large % of the rhs jobs are filled by local cadets.

The Asian airline I work for hires expat first officers who are type rated on their aircraft (B767). I believe their minimum requirements are as above...i.e. 3000 odd TT with command multi turbine time. Whether anyone actually gets employed at that low a TT I'm unsure of.

This airline is one of the very few who will upgrade you, as an expat, to the LHS, along with Cathay, Dragon...in fact if they do not deem you to have command potential from day one they will not employ you.

You're kidding yourself if you believe you will be able to shortcut the system to the extent that you seem to think possible.

Go have some fun, and learn some of what you don't know, for a few years.

Chuck.
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Old 15th May 2004, 12:06
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More to the point, Truthmaster, why are you concentrating on the Far East? As has been pointed out, Airlines from that part of the world tend to have high requirements for expats (and pay enough to attract sufficient numbers), or train their own locals as FOs.

With limited experience and the money and will to pay for a type rating, you would be far better off in Europe or North America.

Cut your teeth there, THEN look East!
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