Pay question for current CX SO's
 

I am looking for information on the take home monthly pay for a CX SO. The pay stated on the CX website is around 45k HKD per month. The tax is stated to be 12-15%. Am I correct in thinking that at the end of the month I will take home between 38250-39600 HKD? Why is it around 45k a month? Is there different rates for different experience on joining? Are there any little surprises I should know about that catch people out? Pollution levy or some other silly thing?

On the subject of money I would also like to know roughly how much you would be paid per month in per diems for layovers. I know that this shouldn't be taken into account when budgeting but I really would like to know what you could expect.

Cheers

Just an add on
 

Another question while I'm here is when do you actually start getting the 45k? Is it when you graduate from FTA or when you finish your check to line? The time between both could be considerable which is why I ask.

You will get paid when you arrive in Hong Kong, it could take 6 months to be checked to line, you couldn't live that long without being paid, but CX could change their policy from time to time.
You could reasonable expect:

Salary 36000
iCadet allowance 10000
Per Diems 3000-4000

You'll spend
10000 -15000 Rent
9000 Tax + Provisional tax could be another 9000
1000 phone
2000 Utilities
1000 transport
3000 - 4000 Food
5000 - Socialising
1000 - Maid

Fire away.

expat cabin crew allowance 8-9K

icadet pilot allowance 10K

ouch

I can't see why these guys are complaining so much. You spend more money on socializing than on food? !!!! Get your priorities right and your finances will look a lot better. :hmm:

You also do not need to have a maid. How about cleaning up behind yourself for a change ?? :{ You are young, fit and not disabled :rolleyes: (or otherwise go and give your flight medical back to the doctor)

Time for a reality check, I think

Laugh if you will, a night out on the turps will easily cost you 1000 bucks. Do it once a week (most likely 3 or 4 because you suffer peer group pressure and you're so bored) and it'll easily cost you 5000 per month. Been there done that. Don't ask if you don't want answers.

Don't forget taxes...$9000 a month, minimum.

AND you'll be taxed on the entire "forgivable loan" - ALL HKD1.2 MILLION of it. Keep at least $330,000 aside for that too.

If you're doing the long course (the full whack), you're screwed.

Underpants,

For a change, try to stop posting about things you have no idea about.

You're taxed on the cash element alone. If you do the long course, you have no tax liability. The manner in which you're taxed for the cash element is helpful; as extra monthly income each month for the 6 years. In the case of an AE cadet, about 7.6k a month.

So, make your own decisions, but don't listen to clowns like Underpants. 330k lump sum...haha

ETOPS240

Actually Underpants is correct in that the entire forgivable loan is taxed. The loan is for HK$1.2m, not just the cash portion. In the eyes of the IRD it is irrelevant how the loan is spent. Under HK taxation law if a loan is forgiven it becomes income and is taxed at the highest applicable marginal tax rate. You are correct though in saying it is taxed over the six years as the loan is written down progressively over that time. That may change though as it appears CX has changed the contract and it appears now that it is forgiven only at the completion of six years’ service which would mean that it would be taxed in the sixth year only.

The contract changed a year ago, for that very reason - cash element taxation.

I have seen the PeopleCX tax return of an AE and a TT cadet. It clearly shows It is taxed as income throughout the first 6 years, not at the end of 6 years, and only on the cash element.

ETOPS240

So what you are trying to tell me is that if an iCadet decides to resign the day after he/she is checked to line all they have to pay back the company is the cash portion of the forgivable loan? If this is the case then you don’t have any arguments from me. If on the other hand they have to pay back the entire HK$1.2m then it is most definitely 100% taxable and it is irrelevant what the company puts on their tax returns. The company has a very poor track record when it comes to employee tax advice. Based pilot’s springs to mind.

I don't know, because I'm not in that position, however, what I do know is that the tax returns show the cash element of a loan as being classed as income spread over the 72 month period.

Again, second hand info, but my source was asked to sign the new contract, the reasoning given was so that you're only liable to be taxed on the cash.

Will this guy (AE) get a shock when he gets his 6th tax bill for the 550k non-cash element? Well, apparently not; it isn't shown anywhere on your payroll, hasn't passed through your account, and consequently isn't reported income when CX send off their gubbins to the IRD in April.

Conjecture, but thats how I see it, and how it has been explained to them (I appreciate your point re. taxation advice), caveat emptor as always.

ETOPS240

It’s irrelevant what the company is reporting to the IRD. The company has already been down this road when they didn’t report the income to the IRD of all the based pilots. Look where that got them and the based pilots that took their advice? I can assure you that if it’s the company’s position that an iCadet must repay the entire HK$1.2m if they resign the day after they check to line, the company has just opened up a can of worms for themselves and a whole world of pain for the unwitting kids that are signing up to this. As an accountant in my previous life, the whole forgivable loan issue is likely to come back and bite the company on the back side. The way it has been managed is like watching an episode of Faulty Towers.:ugh:

$18000 a month in tax?
 

Thanks for the info chaps. I have just a couple of questions and one is regarding the provisional tax. Is it just extra tax like council tax?

Is crwjerk's case of possibly paying $18000 tax a month typical?

The phone cost of $1000 a month seems a bit high. That's $125 USD a month on phone calls. Are mobile calls in HK that expensive?

Lastly the $2000 for utilities is a lot. That's $250 USD a month for gas/power/water? Is that normal?

I would like to commend crwjerk for his ability to go out two nights a week, employ a maid and still bank $3000 a month. Well done!

The way tax works here is the HKIRD want a years worth of your tax in their pocket so your first year in HKG you have to pay the current tax you owe + next years tax they think you will owe. The second year in HKG they already have the tax they thought you would pay for that year which is usually not enough so you pay the remainder of the tax for the second year plus what they now think you will owe for the 3rd year based on your 2nd year tax.

Basically the 1st year you pay tax for 2 years and then it is about 15% a year after that.

We all spend a lot of time in HKG, you don't need to convert to US$ to help us understand the value of the HK$. :8

Reality
 

In response to crwjerks "one size fits all and let me put you all off" budgetary requirements, let me add a more realistic view.

Apart from the socializing and the food, everything else he has priced can be halved, maid not needed.

In terms of tax- very loose and inaccurate figures here- as usual from the naysayers. If you go onto the hong kong tax calculator and type in 552'000 hkd you will find that you are not paying anywhere close to 15% tax for the year.

In the spirit of prune ( where anyone can win an argument based on THEIR own figures) let me add some interesting comparisons.

The starting salary including monthly allowances is an easy 50'000 HKD per month. This is equal to £3950pm or $6400pm.

Let us use sterling for some comparisons. In uk we can use 30% tax made up of 20% income tax and 11% national insurance. Therefore you will be earning the equivalent of £4500 pm or £54510 per annum- first year salary.

This is frankly not bad- if we can for one split second play devils advocate and understand Cathay have no reason to recompense us for the fact that HK " can be expensive" then you ain't doing to bad.

WARNING- my post is just a positive eye opener. There is one basic thing you need to remember: the package is not good enough for those with 1500 hours+, and purely a short term job for newbees.

1500 hours guys- you are worth more than CX and don't you forget it. Do not lower yourselves to this paltry insulting offer.

Newbees- best gig in town for the short term I.e 6 years. Get yourselves the rating, some right seat time (1 year is sufficient) , enjoy S.E Asia and staff travel then F**k off somewhere else.

betpump
A little simplistic, but some valid points, especially about it being insulting to anyone with experience and secondly, about bring a stepping stone to much better things.

etops, as for me not knowing what I'm talking about, fyi I'm in my 3rd decade with CX. I'll defend my knowledge on the subject of this deal and the HKG taxation system. I'll guarantee I know more about HKG tax than the recruitment office (not difficult) and the mangers (sic) that devised this idiocy (again, not a difficult thing)

I'm not starting an argument with you, but I really think I'm in a much better position than you to pass comment.

The benefit
 

Sloppyjpoe,

The USD conversion I had on my post was for my benefit not yours. I realise a lot of guys on here have been in HK for many years but I have no idea what normal is in HKD so I have to convert it to a currency I know.

Betpump5 comments that everything apart from food and socializing can be halved sounds a bit more like it. I assume the rent is around right after a look on Squarefoot.

I am trying to get a realistic picture of cost of living in HK because there seems to be a lot of people on here claiming they have to eat packet noodles to survive due to the SO wage being so inadequate. I am starting to think this is either not really the case or some people have very poor budgeting skills.

Thanks for the help and if I do get a job with CX I will be leaving a fair chunk of the forgivable loan in the bank just in case the tax man does come knocking!

I'd like to think you are joking, if not you have a serious alcohol problem. HK$1,000 will buy you 30 or 40 units of alcohol in Lan Kwai Fong, more in Wanchai. That's a lot more than the safe limit for a week and you do that much in one night?

No its not extra tax. It is advance tax for the next year. You may not have to pay it, depending when you start working in HK. If you do your following year's tax will be correspondingly lower.

HK$1,000 for phone is also way to much. You can get combined Internet, Phone and Cable TV packages for much less.

Utilities should also be much less.

There's lots of info available on-line, its better if you do your own research.

Yes you are correct. 30-40 units of alcohol if you stand with the homeless beggars out front of 7/11. If you fancy a proper drink, and as a flash new Cathay "pilot" you'll be straight down to Wyndham street spending 80 bucks + service charge per drink...... That's 12 drinks. Too many units per week for you??
Ok, good luck with that.

Inclusive exclusive
 

I have noticed on the apartment rental sites that some rentals are inclusive and some exclusive. What exactly is included? Am I to assume inclusive means power and water etc? Another poster mentioned club and gym fees. If an apartment lists a gym and pool as a feature do you still have to pay to use it? I know that sounds silly but I have learnt never to take anything for granted.

Some apartments listed have mortgage repayments the same as the rental payments. I know that there are obviously taxes and insurance to pay like everywhere else but is it realistic to say that you can buy for the same price as renting?

"inclusive" in a Hong Kong context generally means inclusive of property taxes.

If there's a gymnasium or pool, it's generally available to all residents as part of the strata fees, which should be covered in your rent.

Parking spots are not normally included.

Utilities are almost always to your own account. Water is nominal, electricity is something that should be taken notice of, as running AC in even a moderately sized apartment can be north of $2K/month.

As always, caveat emptor.

"Inclusive" , as Cpt said, means the Landlord will pay the Government rent and your building's management fees. You basically pay for it all anyway, if the rent is "inclusive" it will normally be a couple of thousand per month more than "exclusive", so make sure you negotiate.

Not per week, per night. was your exact quote, and 12 drinks per night is too much especially if you're doing it every week. And most bars charge less than $80 for a drink even in LKF.

It would help you to read my post before knocking it. Most spirits in the decent bars on Wyndham st are around 80 bucks. If you want a glass of wine, make it 100. You can go down the steps and pay 70 at the hard rock, it's still expensive. I was referring to units per week as the previous poster had. 12 drinks a night is not much. Especially as you're buying drinks for whores ( no, you didnt know they were on the job until you wanted to take them home) and other tarts that aren't going to buy you one back. Where the hell did that 5 grand go last night????

Short-term memory loss is a frequent symptom of alcohol abuse, especially binge drinking.

Engaging in high-risk sexual behaviour is another symptom.

Before the thread gets hijacked
 

I know some people still find it hard to distinguish between regular girls on a night out and girls who are "turning tricks". The best way I have found to separate the two is by comparing your looks with the looks of the girl who all of a sudden finds you interesting. If your an average looking bloke and a smokin' hot girl all of a sudden takes an interest in you then guess what? Say no more.

A part of my question that remains unanswered is if it's possible to buy a flat for the same money as it does to rent in Hong Kong or are there many hidden costs I don't know about?

The main problem you would have is that banks in HK will normally not lend more than 70% of the property value. Even with additional insurance the maximum loan is 90%. If you can come up with the large down-payment required, then interest on the mortgage would be similar to the rent. Principal repayment, especially in the early years could also be a problem, and negative amortising or interest only loans are not readily available in HK.

Even if you could afford the down-payment I would not recommend buying in HK, one of the most expensive property markets in the world.

Thank you
 

I can't think of any other questions so I appreciate all the replies and PM's. I have to figure out now if coming to HK is still worth it.

Just to give some comparison where I lived in Sydney was $1750 a month which is close to $14000 HKD (Thats for a small one bed around 550sq feet). A pint at the nice bar down the road was $9 which is about $70 HKD. My car space was $200 AUD a month and you get the point. I don't think it sounds as bad as everyone makes out. I lived in London for while and that was expensive!

Are the people on here moaning about cost of living in HK part of the minority or majority?

Are we really saying now 1500 hrs is too experienced to be an SO...

what a joke

PIlotchute, $1750/month for a 1 bedder, that was in a good area in Sydney right ? That will get you a place that is advertised as 550' (more like 400) in an average area in HK (maybe DB), not Soho or mid levels. Car space 200/month, good luck even getting a space in HK, maybe 3-400AUD a month in Tung Chung. BTW, petrol is 2aud/litre, there are tolls everywhere, if you wanna drive an older 6 or 8 cyl it will cost a lot more than oz in insurance/rego.

If you buy a place and then want to rent it out, you have to have min 30% equity in it and all rental income is taxed, there is no negative gearing. Also remember if you wish to return to Oz, all foreign income has to be declared to the ATO, likely you will have to pay tax in Oz also.

As for how to tell which girls are the hookers in Wanchai, that's easy, it's the girls talking to you ;)

That was in Bondi
 

I wish it was in a nice area. Bondi is ok but the flat was pretty tired and on a busy road. A decent 1 bed in a decent area in the city or close by was $2200-$2500 a month. $500 a week in Sydney isn't that much these days. The point I wish to make is everywhere is getting more expensive these days. I don't need a big place as there would only be two of us living there. I think a big problem in Australia is our obsession for having houses with rooms we never use. I have a friend who lives in 4 bed house and has no kids! He also has a study and a games room.Why?

In regards to the car I had to keep it because Sydney public transport was not up to par at all. If the train or bus ever did turn up (after dark especially) it would have some drugged up idiot onboard screaming his head off and threatening people. I have experienced public transport in HK and found it efficient and pretty cheap. If I was in HK I don't think I would need a car anyway.

As for buying in HK when is ever the right time?

So if I do come to Hong Kong and can get over having to live in a small flat (shoe box) without a car in a tolerable area like DB is there anything else I should look out for?

I thought those girls in the bar in Wanchai were school students wanting to practice their English?

pilotchute

I have several properties in Sydney. Bondi is expensive, period. Inner city Sydney is expensive, period. None of my properties would attract the rental return you quote per square foot, period. You have obviously made a choice to live in one of the most expensive areas of Sydney.

You and your partner may be able to live in a small apartment but I must ask do they work? If they do, chances are they won’t in Hong Kong. 550 ft² becomes very small when you have to look at it 24 hours a day especially when you are away for up to half the month. More marriages suffer and fail because of this than I can poke a stick at. Oh and 550 ft² in HK isn’t the same as 550 ft² in Sydney. In HK it is considerably small running at about 70% efficiency for an apartment of that size. So that 550 ft² apartment is really about 385 ft² liveable area.

As usual, good accurate advice from 404 and Dan.
BTW, are you married ? If not your partner won't be recognised by immigration, there is no such thing as " defacto " in HK. Unless she can get sponsored in her own right ( eg doctor, lawyer, finance, teacher ) she will have to leave HK every 3 months. Also chute, I have no idea what/if your family plans are but try looking ahead a little, is the HK lifestyle ( pollution, crowds, lack of parks/playgrounds ) what you want for your kids ?
Take the pain in Oz early, do the hard yards, in less than 10 years you could have a jet command with an LCC " struggling " on circa 200k/year, or you could be a CX F/O possibly 5 years from command wondering how you can " afford " to come home.

Thank you everyone
 

I would like to thank everyone who made a contribution to this thread. I now have the answers to many of my questions and feel I can make a more informed decision in regards to accepting an offer from CX should I make it through the interview process and flight screening.

If anyone else's want to jump in with any other money or living expenses questions regarding HK go for it.

Cheers

Pilotchute,

Let me add some more points of view. Firstly, we are definately getting too bogged down with the figures stated - by myself and others. One may wish to live as a pauper and save a decent amount, one may wish to live a half-decent lifestyle and have nothing at the end of the month. one may enjoy the pleasures of a cold lager, one may not. One may be happy living in a shoe-box, one may not ad nauseum. So lets look at the big picture.

Regardless of how you live, there is no sustainable future in HK for you. This is the point the likes of Titan, Dan Buster, and crwjerk are trying to get across. Even if you are single, you will struggle to save up 30percent deposit on ANY property. And if by some miracle you do, good luck finding a wife to live with you in that shoebox and just forget about kids.

The lack of housing has ensured the above paragraph is not BS I'm afraid. The normal path of life is to earn money, buy assests and use them to provide for you in your old age. The lucky ones amongst us who have invested wisely will have a retirement with no detriment in quality of life. The majority of us with housing (and have not had two or more divorces) have accomplished this. We have bought properties and paid for them purely with the housing allowance and made a reasonable profit on selling them.

Cadets can only dream of this.

And this is the point I was making before. For those with zero hours or less than 1500 hours, this is an amazing opportunity. It's also an easy road. Try talking to the Canucks dicking around in -35'C temps earning sweet FA or the romantic stories of CPL holders washing Cessna152s at an airfield just to get an instructors job or a job towing gliders. Kudos to the ones that have gone down this road an made it - but life is all about taking chances if they come. And the CX Cadet scheme is one of them. We may not be the airline we were once proud of back in the 80s but our planes certainly cure SJS (Shiny jet syndrome). Not many first time jobs give you the chance to argue amonst your classmates about what plane they want to fly - the 777ER or 330 or the forthcoming A350XWB. Wow!!!!!:ok:

But it is not sustainable. And CX know this. Hence the loan to make sure you return 6 years of service. Before the unforgivable loan, any cadet could have left CX at any point- the letter stating you must work 6 years for the company might aswell have been toilet paper because it means nothing. This unforgivable loan scheme is as good as a bond.

So do not take my word for it, nor Dan Buster, nor Titan et al. The fact that CX themselves have implemented this loan scheme is their own statement that the package is not good enough! That's the proof my boys - from the horse's mouth!

That was my point earlier. Come here only as a short term plan. Hk isn't bad, the staff travel (contrary to what people say) isn't too bad and after 4 years as an SO (could be less), you start getting RHS time. And a free rating! This is much better than other horror stories you hear about pilots trying to get that elusive first job.

I hope this really summarises the scheme - the Big Picture is simply this: Entering Cathay as a cadet is unsustainable for a career in CX. It is purely short term.

Well said Betpump
 

You stole my thunder..:ok:

Expenses?
 

My water bill for last month totalled HK$38, electricity HK$288, phone HK$200 pcm which includes 10gig data (pay as you go, intl roaming not incl).
Rental 13k for a beautiful shoebox (400sq m) in Soho. You are out most of the time so not much more is required (for me at least).

The going out and drinking gets you.... If you didn't drink you'd be able to save heaps - by why on earth would you want to do that?? It's Hong Kong, live the 'dream'....

400 sq m in SoHo for $13K?

Please tell me where, Do you mean 400 sq ft perhaps?

If it is just $13K a month for that sized apartment, I've been horribly misled about the value of my place. Damn.