Why I knocked back Cathay
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AQUIS Boigu,
I smell bullsh!t in the air.
I would not say I did it the "hard" way. Had a dad who paid for the whole CPL ME/IR then a TR on the 737 classic to get me ahead. he had the funds and neither of us would apologise for using those funds. However he still wanted to see me actually get a job and repay him.
It is very easy for me to say, "I would have taken this same path again" but that is with hindsight because I was able to DEFO myself into CX and enjoy the Housing allowance. However I did not know I would end up at CX when I started my training. If me and my dad had seen the advert for a cadet scheme offering the same T&Cs as they are offereing now, my Dad would have put his hand straight back into his pocket and told me to F-off and apply for the cadet scheme.
Many of you that have been swimming in the pool since 07/08 are probably a little p!ssed right now. But unless you guys have been hiding under a rock, a little thing called the Global Financial Crisis occured. This made a "once great airline" realise that why should they take blokes like me, pay me my salary and my salary again in terms of housing allowance, when there are a thousand others out there that will jump at the chance to do it without a housing allowance.
Like many of the naysayers announce here "SOs don't do anything. You just sit there eating sandwiches. You make the beds. You do nothing for 4 years". Therefore, one can not use the argument that getting a bunch of 250hr Adelaide cadets is unsafe. There is still a CN and 2 FOs around. Aircraft are getting safer by the day with a million redundancy systems. And if all that fails, what are the chances that the CN, SFO and FO will be incapacitated that it is left to the SO to save the day?
That is why the DESO is dead. And will remain so. The extra HKD$10'000 which takes the starting salary to HKD45'170 ($5'790 or £3'565) is as much as you are going to get. CX needs to draw the line at what they can pay. It is not CXs fault that Hong Kong is ridiculously expensive - no it really is ridiculous. Stupid. Insane. Unbelievable etc. CX needs to draw that line. Some may say that line has been drawn by fat cat management. Some may say bean-counters. The realists amongst us know that line is drawn by common sense.
The AoA, of which I am a member of was pushing for HKD$30'000 rather than $10'000. It will never get this high because of the reasonable argument that if CX starts giving out this sum of money, then why not start the DESO up again. This would certainly appease my moronic colleagues on here who on one hand say they want "experienced safe airline pilots" to operate as DESOs - even though on the otehr hand they ridicule the SO because He/She does bugger all on the FD.
Oh and let me just add that the whole "you don't get to fly" is the most idiotic thing an airline pilot can say. A lot of the antagosists try and make a reasonable argument that you "don't fly" as an SO. None of us fly. I've seen CNs put it on A/P at 200ft and I ask myself why didn't they give me the sector if they were just going to waste it. None of us fly.
I think it is time for people to leave this forum now. To those that have been swimming for a while, get out of the pool, get mummy (mommy) to wrap a big towel around you. We don't want to hear about why you didn't take it, or how sh1t you think the deal is, or how you'll keep flying Turboprops in Manitoba until Air Canada comes calling
. You haven't accepted the offer. Ok. Enough said.
And to those who currently sit side by side with me on our long journeys, please see the bigger picture and if you must spread your bad vibes about, at least come up with original, reasonable and calculated arguments. It is getting a tad boring.
I am glad I have done it the "hard" way and - if I had to - I would again choose the same path
I would not say I did it the "hard" way. Had a dad who paid for the whole CPL ME/IR then a TR on the 737 classic to get me ahead. he had the funds and neither of us would apologise for using those funds. However he still wanted to see me actually get a job and repay him.
It is very easy for me to say, "I would have taken this same path again" but that is with hindsight because I was able to DEFO myself into CX and enjoy the Housing allowance. However I did not know I would end up at CX when I started my training. If me and my dad had seen the advert for a cadet scheme offering the same T&Cs as they are offereing now, my Dad would have put his hand straight back into his pocket and told me to F-off and apply for the cadet scheme.
Many of you that have been swimming in the pool since 07/08 are probably a little p!ssed right now. But unless you guys have been hiding under a rock, a little thing called the Global Financial Crisis occured. This made a "once great airline" realise that why should they take blokes like me, pay me my salary and my salary again in terms of housing allowance, when there are a thousand others out there that will jump at the chance to do it without a housing allowance.
Like many of the naysayers announce here "SOs don't do anything. You just sit there eating sandwiches. You make the beds. You do nothing for 4 years". Therefore, one can not use the argument that getting a bunch of 250hr Adelaide cadets is unsafe. There is still a CN and 2 FOs around. Aircraft are getting safer by the day with a million redundancy systems. And if all that fails, what are the chances that the CN, SFO and FO will be incapacitated that it is left to the SO to save the day?
That is why the DESO is dead. And will remain so. The extra HKD$10'000 which takes the starting salary to HKD45'170 ($5'790 or £3'565) is as much as you are going to get. CX needs to draw the line at what they can pay. It is not CXs fault that Hong Kong is ridiculously expensive - no it really is ridiculous. Stupid. Insane. Unbelievable etc. CX needs to draw that line. Some may say that line has been drawn by fat cat management. Some may say bean-counters. The realists amongst us know that line is drawn by common sense.
The AoA, of which I am a member of was pushing for HKD$30'000 rather than $10'000. It will never get this high because of the reasonable argument that if CX starts giving out this sum of money, then why not start the DESO up again. This would certainly appease my moronic colleagues on here who on one hand say they want "experienced safe airline pilots" to operate as DESOs - even though on the otehr hand they ridicule the SO because He/She does bugger all on the FD.
Oh and let me just add that the whole "you don't get to fly" is the most idiotic thing an airline pilot can say. A lot of the antagosists try and make a reasonable argument that you "don't fly" as an SO. None of us fly. I've seen CNs put it on A/P at 200ft and I ask myself why didn't they give me the sector if they were just going to waste it. None of us fly.
I think it is time for people to leave this forum now. To those that have been swimming for a while, get out of the pool, get mummy (mommy) to wrap a big towel around you. We don't want to hear about why you didn't take it, or how sh1t you think the deal is, or how you'll keep flying Turboprops in Manitoba until Air Canada comes calling
. You haven't accepted the offer. Ok. Enough said. And to those who currently sit side by side with me on our long journeys, please see the bigger picture and if you must spread your bad vibes about, at least come up with original, reasonable and calculated arguments. It is getting a tad boring.
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"Market Forces." That has been the Cathay mantra since the mid '80s. It worked in favour of the pilots right up to the "Dispute" in '89, since when it has all been downhill. Of course, that was not the only reason, but it was certainly the catalyst that got the Beancounters scheming.
It might swing the other way in years to come, but probably not until enough 'Wannabes' say "enough, already" and seek more lucrative careers. Driving a fuel bowser at Tulla springs to mind. Low skill set, minimal training, no recurrent licence checks, but a very strong Union. Is there a message there, perhaps?
It might swing the other way in years to come, but probably not until enough 'Wannabes' say "enough, already" and seek more lucrative careers. Driving a fuel bowser at Tulla springs to mind. Low skill set, minimal training, no recurrent licence checks, but a very strong Union. Is there a message there, perhaps?
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Here we go again..... Betpump5 screaming from the rafters words of wisdom and abuse to those with a backbone. Bet you had hoped you wouldn't be exposed here (again), eh?
In a recent posts:
and yet you push so vehemently for more cadets to take the job and lower the general T's & C's, again, just so you can be comfortable.
Yet he writes / boasts about his DEFO entry or as a once SO. Credibility??
So to allow others to (again) know this "fool's" platform (information from previous posts)....
The iCadet scheme is nothing but the CHEAPEST way to fill a seat. Full stop. No elitist group of the best of the best. More like the naive of the naive. Nearly all of those (except some "fools") see it as a downward spiral in the T's & C's of a once great airline. It is a C-scale movement as defined by the AOA which good 'ole betpump here is a card waving member of, apparently. It is a decline of entry level standards in the extreme and a bastardisation of the original intent of the entire cadet scheme, and all under the cheap guise of racial equality and non-discrimination to lower costs and drive up personal gain (profit bonuses) and share price. So to allow others to (again) know this "fool's" platform (information from previous posts):
1. a guy who went from flying school to 737 because daddy paid for the endorsement and training, then CX as DEFO on the 74F;
2. a guy who advocates the lowered and lowering conditions borne by the cadets in order to allow one group of CX pilots to suffer financial loss so (as admitted in previous posts) as he sees it, so he doesn't have to. After all, someone has to take the hit and it's better it's someone else rather than yourself (again, just quoting previous posts);
3. a guy who is a member of the AoA advocating for the division of rights and financial reward of some for his own personal gain;
4. a guy who offers cadets words of wisdom from how, what and when to even the role of female pilots at CX;
5. a guy who is so busy feathering his own nest at the expense of others (own admission) that can't wait to throw pure and utter abuse on this forum to anyone with a differing opinion;
6. a guy who admitted to having to change his username in case others discovered who he was and hence retribution due previous (work) history.
iCadets: this is the type of person you are supporting and keeping in the lifestyle he believes he deserves, all at your expense. As he admits, without the CX housing allowance, the job isn't worth it.
And more.... (underlining & bold done by me to highlight the utter contradictions this guy comes up with, as well as the reasoning behind his defence of the CEP). Refer: http://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbo...89-deso-2.html
People like this are the lowest of the low. Hiding behind an AOA membership yet advocating and pushing for the lesser T & C's of your colleagues. Scum. Just because you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth doesn't mean others should eat a sh!t sandwich.
For those of you who have and had the fortitude to turn this offer down, my sincere thanks for not contributing to the lowering of our profession. Pilots are and always will be their own worst enemy, especially with colleagues like BP5. Would you want to work with the like of this anyway?
In a recent posts:
Oh to be an SO again!
I will agree with one thing though- My housing allowance as a DEFO makes it all worth it
Yet he writes / boasts about his DEFO entry or as a once SO. Credibility??
So to allow others to (again) know this "fool's" platform (information from previous posts)....
The iCadet scheme is nothing but the CHEAPEST way to fill a seat. Full stop. No elitist group of the best of the best. More like the naive of the naive. Nearly all of those (except some "fools") see it as a downward spiral in the T's & C's of a once great airline. It is a C-scale movement as defined by the AOA which good 'ole betpump here is a card waving member of, apparently. It is a decline of entry level standards in the extreme and a bastardisation of the original intent of the entire cadet scheme, and all under the cheap guise of racial equality and non-discrimination to lower costs and drive up personal gain (profit bonuses) and share price. So to allow others to (again) know this "fool's" platform (information from previous posts):
1. a guy who went from flying school to 737 because daddy paid for the endorsement and training, then CX as DEFO on the 74F;
2. a guy who advocates the lowered and lowering conditions borne by the cadets in order to allow one group of CX pilots to suffer financial loss so (as admitted in previous posts) as he sees it, so he doesn't have to. After all, someone has to take the hit and it's better it's someone else rather than yourself (again, just quoting previous posts);
3. a guy who is a member of the AoA advocating for the division of rights and financial reward of some for his own personal gain;
4. a guy who offers cadets words of wisdom from how, what and when to even the role of female pilots at CX;
5. a guy who is so busy feathering his own nest at the expense of others (own admission) that can't wait to throw pure and utter abuse on this forum to anyone with a differing opinion;
6. a guy who admitted to having to change his username in case others discovered who he was and hence retribution due previous (work) history.
iCadets: this is the type of person you are supporting and keeping in the lifestyle he believes he deserves, all at your expense. As he admits, without the CX housing allowance, the job isn't worth it.
And more.... (underlining & bold done by me to highlight the utter contradictions this guy comes up with, as well as the reasoning behind his defence of the CEP). Refer: http://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbo...89-deso-2.html
They [CEP] are a product of the financial crisis, in other words airlines have looked at where they can cut costs and have done so in order to keep you and me in a job. We can not have it both ways. The result has been rather than recruiting pilots as DESOs and giving them housing allowances, CX has instead opted to take SOs from their cadet scheme. Cadet SOs and DESOs ultimately spend circa 3 years eating sandwiches and monitoring the magenta. So as a business, what is the cheapest option? Obviously the CPP. Now are you telling me that you wish to fight against this prudent option? Trust me Dan[Buster], it is that prudent option that will keep you and me in this job for many more years. So do you really want to fight this? Be careful what you wish for as it will probably come back at you.
For those of you who have and had the fortitude to turn this offer down, my sincere thanks for not contributing to the lowering of our profession. Pilots are and always will be their own worst enemy, especially with colleagues like BP5. Would you want to work with the like of this anyway?
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TopTit,
Please refer to my last line - I have quoted it here to make things easier for you:
Please refer to my last line - I have quoted it here to make things easier for you:
please see the bigger picture and if you must spread your bad vibes about, at least come up with original, reasonable and calculated arguments. It is getting a tad boring.
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please see the bigger picture and if you must spread your bad vibes about, at least come up with original, reasonable and calculated arguments. It is getting a tad boring.
Or from the arrogant DEFO happy to see the CEPs offered far less money so you are protected in the lifestyle you determine fit & appropriate for YOU at the expense of colleagues?
When people stand up & defend standards, terms & conditions as well as their own personal integrity you call it boring. Your post about the CX aircraft orders shows your utter arrogance, again. Since when have you EVER made a Cmd decision in a cockpit apart from chicken or beef? Since rich Daddy paid for your vast flying school experience direct to 737 you have ZERO scope to argue against the professional pilots here who didn't have that plum in their mouth, who did "hard yards" & therefore see themselves worth more than a naive cadet accepting T's & C's far below the job they interviewed for.
Again, THANK YOU to the PROFFESIONAL PILOTS who are able to see their true value & not settle for this insult.
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Copy of my post on Pg1 & 3. for info
Following on from my previous post on PG1 (Net gain A/c in CX)
Sorry about the mistake! At least Dick makes some as well.
Right now as we speak airlines are hiring all over.
Ryan Air - have just lost 260 in Dec and another 250 are giving notice. Virgin & BA are having problems finding experienced crew on type.
The ME is very short at Mo & many are not allowed to take leave.
Cathay are dreaming when they think they can fill the plug with cadets. They are 160 short at present and this will go up rapidly.
I hear next year that will be tipple.
DE pilots have two happen and very fast!
Those joining CX as Cadets be warned P2X counts nothing if you apply for a job else where. Do cannot legally opp-orate the heading knob in cruise, how sad is that really!
You'll be making the beds for 5yrs & waiting + 20yrs for CMD. Let alone live in a box forever...
Your F/O upgrade will be stepped on by DEFO either on full Expat terms or on a base. (later most likely)
To get enough experience to move you'd need to wait at least 6yrs.
Be carefull of being CX's slave for 6yrs just to get free training etc.
Or at least leave within 6months of joining to get a GA job or pay for a 320 /737 rating to go ME etc..
As a DE pilot in HK at least u can get full expat benefits. But then u risk not being able to go on a base for a very long time. (no at all at the mo)
Why don't u join BA if u have experience, or Ryan air if u don't then jump to ME for a few yrs..
IMHO - wait and only join CX if u have too at a Expat pilot level or on a base but beware funny things are happening & will continue to happen here.
Ok CMD's Times
NET GROWTH by 2020 = 41 A/c (say 50) to be optimistic)
[SIZE=2]By 2020 there will be 229 Cpt retiring & 50*7.5 =375 total new slots about 600 slots in the next 10 years. About 60 a year.
So currently CMD @ Snr no. 930 + 600 = 1530 then sadly it will slow to about 60-80 per year until 2030 after as it a very young airline & very little growth will happen in 2020-2030 until the new Runway is made as slots will be full. New Airport can only be complete by 2030 earliest I'm told by an engineer involved. If done at all.
No people reaching 65 in each year.
No of captain Retire per Year 2011 5 2012 8 2013 11 2014 12 2015 20 2016 27 2017 20 2018 24 2019 44 2020 58 2021 53 2022 51 2023 58 2024 57 2025 58 2026 47 2027 70 2028 62 2029 73 2030 76
Very interestingly this number will suddenly increases to about 150 retiring per year after 2030 with a new runway coming and more expansion there will be a sudden need for Captains & pilots again. So those on Cos99 expect Cx to beg you to reconsider working to 65.
Basically if you seniority number is X & less than expect CMD in yr Y
1100 2012
1300 2015
1500 2020
1700 2024
1900 2027
2100 2030
2300 2032
2500 2033
So expect CMD time will be 13-14 yrs till mid decade then to extend to +-18 yrs until 2020 then 20+ yrs until 2030.
Now this is based on Net gain a 50 A/c by 2020 and 2% growth in 20's and 4% growth in 30's. And everyone working to 65.
Some smart & not so smart folks may leave earlier. But I highly doubt more a/c "can" come. If HKA are successful the growth will be less thus longer wait to CMD. If they are not CMD could be much "worse" because they'll try to do Direct entry CMD again.
The main driver that will effect CMD in HK at the moment, is outsourcing cargo to AHK & JV. Also F/O's on the base not wanting to come to HK and remain on the base my guess is about 15%.
About 8% of F/O's will be Cat B,D. +- 10% will leave prior to 65. Thus expect things for HK based F/O's to improve by about 30% in the short term.
Anyway the main problem here is the courts will get worse in HK as the Chinese (AC) take more of a major stake in CX. At present no basis are available to get your home country protection. HK based pilots risk reducing expat terms & hyper inflation & really bad rosters to come.I heard that Cx aim to roster everyone to 90 hrs is the new target. Do that and only 6wks a yr life gets pretty dull.
Bottom line if you came here to have a good life on ULH with plenty of time off & disposable income and quick time to CMD. Forget it!!
Why not use the current shortage worldwide of pilots to get a good job in your home country. Or get quick CMD time with HKA or ME then go home. But becarefull of CX as this flashy aircraft order of 91 a/c will only benefit those that joined from 2000-2005. (about 700 pilots)
Do u really want to be a cruise pilot making beds & doing radio work & not being able to touch anything for 4+ yrs on empty promises of quick upgrade time. Only to go home to a depressive box eating cheap food and only getting 21 days leave a yr. (as an S/O) and having no temp or permanent bases)
Good luck to you but be warned..
That's it from me until next month..
Sorry about the mistake! At least Dick makes some as well.
Right now as we speak airlines are hiring all over.
Ryan Air - have just lost 260 in Dec and another 250 are giving notice. Virgin & BA are having problems finding experienced crew on type.
The ME is very short at Mo & many are not allowed to take leave.
Cathay are dreaming when they think they can fill the plug with cadets. They are 160 short at present and this will go up rapidly.
I hear next year that will be tipple.
DE pilots have two happen and very fast!
Those joining CX as Cadets be warned P2X counts nothing if you apply for a job else where. Do cannot legally opp-orate the heading knob in cruise, how sad is that really!
You'll be making the beds for 5yrs & waiting + 20yrs for CMD. Let alone live in a box forever...Your F/O upgrade will be stepped on by DEFO either on full Expat terms or on a base. (later most likely)
To get enough experience to move you'd need to wait at least 6yrs.
Be carefull of being CX's slave for 6yrs just to get free training etc.
Or at least leave within 6months of joining to get a GA job or pay for a 320 /737 rating to go ME etc..
As a DE pilot in HK at least u can get full expat benefits. But then u risk not being able to go on a base for a very long time. (no at all at the mo)
Why don't u join BA if u have experience, or Ryan air if u don't then jump to ME for a few yrs..
IMHO - wait and only join CX if u have too at a Expat pilot level or on a base but beware funny things are happening & will continue to happen here.
Ok CMD's Times
NET GROWTH by 2020 = 41 A/c (say 50) to be optimistic)
[SIZE=2]By 2020 there will be 229 Cpt retiring & 50*7.5 =375 total new slots about 600 slots in the next 10 years. About 60 a year.
So currently CMD @ Snr no. 930 + 600 = 1530 then sadly it will slow to about 60-80 per year until 2030 after as it a very young airline & very little growth will happen in 2020-2030 until the new Runway is made as slots will be full. New Airport can only be complete by 2030 earliest I'm told by an engineer involved. If done at all.
No people reaching 65 in each year.
No of captain Retire per Year 2011 5 2012 8 2013 11 2014 12 2015 20 2016 27 2017 20 2018 24 2019 44 2020 58 2021 53 2022 51 2023 58 2024 57 2025 58 2026 47 2027 70 2028 62 2029 73 2030 76
Very interestingly this number will suddenly increases to about 150 retiring per year after 2030 with a new runway coming and more expansion there will be a sudden need for Captains & pilots again. So those on Cos99 expect Cx to beg you to reconsider working to 65.
Basically if you seniority number is X & less than expect CMD in yr Y
1100 2012
1300 2015
1500 2020
1700 2024
1900 2027
2100 2030
2300 2032
2500 2033
So expect CMD time will be 13-14 yrs till mid decade then to extend to +-18 yrs until 2020 then 20+ yrs until 2030.
Now this is based on Net gain a 50 A/c by 2020 and 2% growth in 20's and 4% growth in 30's. And everyone working to 65.
Some smart & not so smart folks may leave earlier. But I highly doubt more a/c "can" come. If HKA are successful the growth will be less thus longer wait to CMD. If they are not CMD could be much "worse" because they'll try to do Direct entry CMD again.
The main driver that will effect CMD in HK at the moment, is outsourcing cargo to AHK & JV. Also F/O's on the base not wanting to come to HK and remain on the base my guess is about 15%.
About 8% of F/O's will be Cat B,D. +- 10% will leave prior to 65. Thus expect things for HK based F/O's to improve by about 30% in the short term.
Anyway the main problem here is the courts will get worse in HK as the Chinese (AC) take more of a major stake in CX. At present no basis are available to get your home country protection. HK based pilots risk reducing expat terms & hyper inflation & really bad rosters to come.I heard that Cx aim to roster everyone to 90 hrs is the new target. Do that and only 6wks a yr life gets pretty dull.
Bottom line if you came here to have a good life on ULH with plenty of time off & disposable income and quick time to CMD. Forget it!!
Why not use the current shortage worldwide of pilots to get a good job in your home country. Or get quick CMD time with HKA or ME then go home. But becarefull of CX as this flashy aircraft order of 91 a/c will only benefit those that joined from 2000-2005. (about 700 pilots)
Do u really want to be a cruise pilot making beds & doing radio work & not being able to touch anything for 4+ yrs on empty promises of quick upgrade time. Only to go home to a depressive box eating cheap food and only getting 21 days leave a yr. (as an S/O) and having no temp or permanent bases)
Good luck to you but be warned..
That's it from me until next month..
Last edited by crewsunite; 20th Mar 2011 at 13:27.
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CrewsUnite: Thanks for the info on career progression and retirement. Career progression was a major reason to join in the first place, so some updated numbers are nice to see.
ChinaBeached: Great post. I'm in the same boat and will be telling them no next week. (I've been waiting for my friends on the inside to fish out a few more details for me.)
I've also been in a hold pool since 2008. It's hard to give up on the Cathay dream, but when I got that call last fall I told them I would only take the original offer. I'll be repeating this again next week. (Personal integrity, if anything I'm worth much more now)
I've landed a good job with another 'major' since. It is nowhere near the career I thought I was going to have with Cathay, but I know where I stand at this company.
I do think they will get some positive results with this offer. I would have taken it years ago. But I can't take this knowing that I'm contributing to reducing the terms and conditions at a once great company.
It's nice to see others feel the same way.
ChinaBeached: Great post. I'm in the same boat and will be telling them no next week. (I've been waiting for my friends on the inside to fish out a few more details for me.)
I've also been in a hold pool since 2008. It's hard to give up on the Cathay dream, but when I got that call last fall I told them I would only take the original offer. I'll be repeating this again next week. (Personal integrity, if anything I'm worth much more now)
I've landed a good job with another 'major' since. It is nowhere near the career I thought I was going to have with Cathay, but I know where I stand at this company.
I do think they will get some positive results with this offer. I would have taken it years ago. But I can't take this knowing that I'm contributing to reducing the terms and conditions at a once great company.
It's nice to see others feel the same way.
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Another polite NO coming from me ('08 poolie as well). 4 days of number crunching and can't make it to work. We might "survive" (wife + 2), as in no more than HK$17k for rent for at least the first 3-4 years, absolutely no margin for misc. expenses and the list of "if's" goes on. I am not touching the "forgivable loan" in these calculations as I don't quite trust the terms.
Why it has taken me the 4 days to get to this point, when some of you were able to toss the offer in trash within 4 minutes, is because, at age 36 now, I'm not on very solid ground with my current airline (U.S. regional looking at divestiture, while potentially having an upgrade within a 1+ year, all happening at the same company). So, an offer from CX now, granted it is sh!t compared to the original, is much more difficult to turn down, when I really don't have a good alternative path to a better career track. On the other hand, why would I want to move across the world to continue the paycheck-to-paycheck lifestyle, desperately counting the weeks, months, years to the next paygrade. Of course CX still offers a career path, the opportunity to fly widebodies on a decent payscale. But the point where it all pays off is so far down the career, I fail to see it.
I echo the sentiment the dream is over, reality bites, and we must look elsewhere. Maybe in a year or two DEFO opens up again, and then it'll be a new game on. But, if/when the time comes, I will use this past 3 years of "outside, looking in" as a guide, how much do I really want to be part of the once illustrious CX career.
Thanks for playing.
T
Why it has taken me the 4 days to get to this point, when some of you were able to toss the offer in trash within 4 minutes, is because, at age 36 now, I'm not on very solid ground with my current airline (U.S. regional looking at divestiture, while potentially having an upgrade within a 1+ year, all happening at the same company). So, an offer from CX now, granted it is sh!t compared to the original, is much more difficult to turn down, when I really don't have a good alternative path to a better career track. On the other hand, why would I want to move across the world to continue the paycheck-to-paycheck lifestyle, desperately counting the weeks, months, years to the next paygrade. Of course CX still offers a career path, the opportunity to fly widebodies on a decent payscale. But the point where it all pays off is so far down the career, I fail to see it.
I echo the sentiment the dream is over, reality bites, and we must look elsewhere. Maybe in a year or two DEFO opens up again, and then it'll be a new game on. But, if/when the time comes, I will use this past 3 years of "outside, looking in" as a guide, how much do I really want to be part of the once illustrious CX career.
Thanks for playing.
T
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Hold pool since 08, I'm considering this "final" offer as I have wanted to work at CX for quite some time and I quite enjoy HK. I've been a regional pilot for 5yrs including 2yrs as a captain. I suppose I'd be one of the more experienced SOs hired in a long time. My biggest problem with this offer is that if HK doesn't work out you still owe CX your training costs under the apparent terms of the forgivable loan. So even if you don't touch the 880000hkd you still owe them 220000 if it doesn't work out. Now that is a lot of $ to wager that everything will be great after moving 8000 miles away... even if I go there with full intent of making it my career (which I would.) At this point I really don't need the "free" training for my resume and have no plans of training and quitting as some apparently do. I'm young and single, well mostly single. So I dunno, tough call...
Last edited by edawg; 21st Mar 2011 at 12:45.
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The word on the street is that recruitment is already behind the hiring target. CX is in need of short course applicants to get bums in the seats now. My guess is that if they can't find anyone taking the offer with an ATPL and more than 1500 hours flight experience, they will come back with a better offer for the DESO poolies in a couple of months. As far as I know they still do a sim evaluation for the short course cadet applicants which seems to be the hurdle for many to pass the interview.
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Ultimatums !!!
Ultimatums given , signatures taken 
Well that is what the world has become , would be interesting to see how many poolie's fold
depends on what you want - ultimatum's accepted once , ultimatum's is what you get for your entire career.
look for a reasonably good deal that suits you , accept it without ultimatum's , have some dignity , self respect - restore honor among f-thieves.
Well that is what the world has become , would be interesting to see how many poolie's fold
depends on what you want - ultimatum's accepted once , ultimatum's is what you get for your entire career.
look for a reasonably good deal that suits you , accept it without ultimatum's , have some dignity , self respect - restore honor among f-thieves.
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My thoughts on the new offer
I've been in the hold pool since 2008 for SO. I rejected the local terms offer made in November. I didn't really like the note saying that if I rejected this offer I would be permanently removed from the hold pool and that, in any case, I needed reassessment since it's been so long but I figure it's time to make a final decision one way or the other on Cathay for both them and I....
Well I'm going for the reassessment. Why not, I figure. I've moved on a lot in my plans since my original interview so I'm not really sure that Cathay is in my plans any longer but interview practice is always good and it gives me time to assess my options. They may very well knock me back which will make the decision simple. I'm also already in China, so it's not so far for me to travel to the interview.
It looks like the primary difference between this offer and my original offer is
1. Reduced housing allowance ($10,000 to start - yes I know what this will get me in HKG - three sides of a cardboard box)
2. Introduction of a bond and forgiveable loan (I am eligible for the transition training so as I read it Cathay will give me $880,000 signing bonus provided I stay 6 years).
My situation is probably different to most. I'm already living in China and my wife has a decent expat package so the early years would be manageable finacially. I haven't been able to find any links to the old housing allowance amounts on any online website. Does anyone have a link to that info (or can they PM me?).
Also having already spent 3 years in China I would like to know about outstation ports. Does anyone have the latest information about the most junior person in each base as an FO? How about what is the total % of pilots in a base versus in HKG? I've read all the recent threads about possible changes to the basing policy and am taking that into consideration. When was the last time that any FO was put on a base?
Thanks in advance for any info you might have to help me. I'm aware this may be a C-scale of benefits but if I join a US major (most likely my alternate career path), I will also not be joining at the same pay and benefits that people who joined 5-10-20 years ago joined. I plan on my next airline move being my last.
The decision for me is as follows:
1. Can I make the housing allowance work when I am based in Hong Kong
2. Do I want to fly primarily long haul the rest of my life?
3. Do I want to be either based in or inexorably tied to, HKG for the rest of my career
4. What is the possibility of an outstation basing (have rights to live in Europe and US)
5. What are the details of the offer (i.e. how much schooling is paid etc, housing linked to inflation etc?) Will ask these questions at interview - last interview time they were glossed over, will try harder to get answers this time.
Seatrump
Well I'm going for the reassessment. Why not, I figure. I've moved on a lot in my plans since my original interview so I'm not really sure that Cathay is in my plans any longer but interview practice is always good and it gives me time to assess my options. They may very well knock me back which will make the decision simple. I'm also already in China, so it's not so far for me to travel to the interview.
It looks like the primary difference between this offer and my original offer is
1. Reduced housing allowance ($10,000 to start - yes I know what this will get me in HKG - three sides of a cardboard box)
2. Introduction of a bond and forgiveable loan (I am eligible for the transition training so as I read it Cathay will give me $880,000 signing bonus provided I stay 6 years).
My situation is probably different to most. I'm already living in China and my wife has a decent expat package so the early years would be manageable finacially. I haven't been able to find any links to the old housing allowance amounts on any online website. Does anyone have a link to that info (or can they PM me?).
Also having already spent 3 years in China I would like to know about outstation ports. Does anyone have the latest information about the most junior person in each base as an FO? How about what is the total % of pilots in a base versus in HKG? I've read all the recent threads about possible changes to the basing policy and am taking that into consideration. When was the last time that any FO was put on a base?
Thanks in advance for any info you might have to help me. I'm aware this may be a C-scale of benefits but if I join a US major (most likely my alternate career path), I will also not be joining at the same pay and benefits that people who joined 5-10-20 years ago joined. I plan on my next airline move being my last.
The decision for me is as follows:
1. Can I make the housing allowance work when I am based in Hong Kong
2. Do I want to fly primarily long haul the rest of my life?
3. Do I want to be either based in or inexorably tied to, HKG for the rest of my career
4. What is the possibility of an outstation basing (have rights to live in Europe and US)
5. What are the details of the offer (i.e. how much schooling is paid etc, housing linked to inflation etc?) Will ask these questions at interview - last interview time they were glossed over, will try harder to get answers this time.
Seatrump
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Do you honestly expect anybody to knock back an "ultimatum" if they've no idea how CX works yet? The final offer version 1 will quickly turn into versions 2 and 3 as long as you guys grow some balls and wait for it. Remember this is what you're going to be stuck with for your whole career.
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Seatrumpeter,
The answers to your questions are in the many posts previously written. I have the CoS99 (CoS08) housing allowance agreement but to go through it all is quite confusing and too much to do here. But, I can tell you that friends of mine as FO and SFO are receiving from between $55-$62k HKD per month....and keep going for a Capt, Senior Capt, etc. Yours ("ours") will be pinned down to the offer we all received. Basically, what a 3rd year SO gets under CoS99/08 will be the MAXIMUM you will EVER receive when (worst case) 25 years down the track after you make Capt (refer AOA updates). As a result I can assure you that the chance to buy and build a nest egg for the future will be very difficult. Do not forget that if the housing allowance is put toward a mortgage it too is taxable, hence the figure is reduced by approx. 15%.
Can you live on this? Probably but not "comfortably". Will you retire comfortably? Almost definitely not. It's not about the short term for any of us. It's about the LONG TERM.
I don't want to count nickels and dimes every time I have a beer, want to eat out, buy new clothes or least of all hope for a holiday somewhere.
I must be honest with you, and please I do not wish to offend.... Some questions you have asked you should already know if you are about to commit yourself to this interview and offer. Basings? Are you aware of the basings fiasco going on at present? You should! You will have a seniority number below a kid with zero hours flying experience and he/she will receive a basing well before you. Call it at best 8 years away. (Again, at VERY BEST!)
Seniority..... If you are 25 or under then perhaps you will see a nice Cmd and be at CX long enough to enjoy it. Those 30+ then it's at best a roll of the dice.
Why not call CX right now and ask for the details over the phone? Save yourself the hassle of the interview. You've passed it once. Again, do you believe it fair that you are held to higher court for your interview while another "SO's" had interview questions along the lines of "What do you parents think about you becoming a pilot?", let alone the sim screening, etc. It's not fair and it is definitely not right. It reeks of bias.
Your wife: and what if you decide to have kids and there is no 2nd income? What if she loses her job? What if, what if, what if..... Plan on worst case, not the best.
Lastly, the salary quoted is dependent on you working (loose term!) 84 hours a month. Ask CX for the average number of hours each SO does a month. You'll find it closer to 70, and quite often less. What salary does that leave you with?? Phone and ask.
With the number of airlines in your region expanding at far greater pace than CX there are far, far, far better jobs out there for double the money and double the time off. Again, I believe we've all worked too hard to be treated like this.
Have you spoken to any CX pilots recently? If not, do so.
This is not a good offer. It is an insult. We are not starey-eyed children gullible in the belief of what CX was, but we should be well and truly informed as to what CX is now. We all have our own reasons and we're all individuals. Pilots have never stuck together and never will. Wouldn't it be great to draw a line in the sand and stick to it this time?
Good luck with your decision. I hope for the betterment of our industry you are able to turn it down. Either way, I sincerely hope it works out for you.
The answers to your questions are in the many posts previously written. I have the CoS99 (CoS08) housing allowance agreement but to go through it all is quite confusing and too much to do here. But, I can tell you that friends of mine as FO and SFO are receiving from between $55-$62k HKD per month....and keep going for a Capt, Senior Capt, etc. Yours ("ours") will be pinned down to the offer we all received. Basically, what a 3rd year SO gets under CoS99/08 will be the MAXIMUM you will EVER receive when (worst case) 25 years down the track after you make Capt (refer AOA updates). As a result I can assure you that the chance to buy and build a nest egg for the future will be very difficult. Do not forget that if the housing allowance is put toward a mortgage it too is taxable, hence the figure is reduced by approx. 15%.
Can you live on this? Probably but not "comfortably". Will you retire comfortably? Almost definitely not. It's not about the short term for any of us. It's about the LONG TERM.
I don't want to count nickels and dimes every time I have a beer, want to eat out, buy new clothes or least of all hope for a holiday somewhere.
I must be honest with you, and please I do not wish to offend.... Some questions you have asked you should already know if you are about to commit yourself to this interview and offer. Basings? Are you aware of the basings fiasco going on at present? You should! You will have a seniority number below a kid with zero hours flying experience and he/she will receive a basing well before you. Call it at best 8 years away. (Again, at VERY BEST!)
Seniority..... If you are 25 or under then perhaps you will see a nice Cmd and be at CX long enough to enjoy it. Those 30+ then it's at best a roll of the dice.
Why not call CX right now and ask for the details over the phone? Save yourself the hassle of the interview. You've passed it once. Again, do you believe it fair that you are held to higher court for your interview while another "SO's" had interview questions along the lines of "What do you parents think about you becoming a pilot?", let alone the sim screening, etc. It's not fair and it is definitely not right. It reeks of bias.
Your wife: and what if you decide to have kids and there is no 2nd income? What if she loses her job? What if, what if, what if..... Plan on worst case, not the best.
Lastly, the salary quoted is dependent on you working (loose term!) 84 hours a month. Ask CX for the average number of hours each SO does a month. You'll find it closer to 70, and quite often less. What salary does that leave you with?? Phone and ask.
With the number of airlines in your region expanding at far greater pace than CX there are far, far, far better jobs out there for double the money and double the time off. Again, I believe we've all worked too hard to be treated like this.
Have you spoken to any CX pilots recently? If not, do so.
This is not a good offer. It is an insult. We are not starey-eyed children gullible in the belief of what CX was, but we should be well and truly informed as to what CX is now. We all have our own reasons and we're all individuals. Pilots have never stuck together and never will. Wouldn't it be great to draw a line in the sand and stick to it this time?
Good luck with your decision. I hope for the betterment of our industry you are able to turn it down. Either way, I sincerely hope it works out for you.
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Some other thoughts
Yes for the long term forget HK.
Friends of mine with F/O with kids have no savings what so ever.
Many cannot even bye a house and that is with Expat allowances,
simply it is too expensive & impossible to save for a deposit.
You need to have a holiday in HK and see 4 urself.& don't trust anything Management tell u.
Medical = Sorry the medical is crap! It is one big GREY area, nothing concrete! It only directly covers u & ur family in HK. Even then u can only see a limited choice of panel doctors everything major needs pre approval,and has a limit. In an emergency u need to pay up front and have a fear of not getting a refund. So in many cases it may be a good idea to go to government local drs'
Surgeon fees are more than double that of UK.
Many things are excluded, 99% of dental, Pregnancy, miscarriages ops, etc..
When ur family travel overseas (and u get no Free tickets home) - you have NO MEDICAL worldwide, only HK!!!
So u may aswell take out your own policy and be safe! as u'll have no buffer & simpathy from CX..
One F/O temp lost his medical CX only simpathy was when u get is back u can work for us again but at bottom of Snr list. What airline does this.
It never happened here in the old days.
Be warned these guys are modern crooks..
Just ask the current Instructors in Adelaide about there empty promises and slavery for the last 4 yrs.
Please understand nothing is guaranteed here, they change there minds all the time, even when they break the law they say take me to court. If u dare & win the just take it to final appeal and win eventually.
My advice is 3 fold.
1) choose another career all together.
2) Choose a carrier in ur home country, if no experience at 1st work in ME, SEA or HKA & take out loan if u need pay for endorsment etc. but using CX as that route will take 6yrs min.
3) Join CX and I told u so.
For info a London tube drivers Salary starting 50,oooP per yr. and takes less than a yrs training from scratch.
BA Direct entry pilot F/O 47K but increase alot over the yrs.
Think long term..
Friends of mine with F/O with kids have no savings what so ever.
Many cannot even bye a house and that is with Expat allowances,
simply it is too expensive & impossible to save for a deposit.
You need to have a holiday in HK and see 4 urself.& don't trust anything Management tell u.
Medical = Sorry the medical is crap! It is one big GREY area, nothing concrete! It only directly covers u & ur family in HK. Even then u can only see a limited choice of panel doctors everything major needs pre approval,and has a limit. In an emergency u need to pay up front and have a fear of not getting a refund. So in many cases it may be a good idea to go to government local drs'
Surgeon fees are more than double that of UK.
Many things are excluded, 99% of dental, Pregnancy, miscarriages ops, etc..
When ur family travel overseas (and u get no Free tickets home) - you have NO MEDICAL worldwide, only HK!!!
So u may aswell take out your own policy and be safe! as u'll have no buffer & simpathy from CX..
One F/O temp lost his medical CX only simpathy was when u get is back u can work for us again but at bottom of Snr list. What airline does this.
It never happened here in the old days.
Be warned these guys are modern crooks..
Just ask the current Instructors in Adelaide about there empty promises and slavery for the last 4 yrs.
Please understand nothing is guaranteed here, they change there minds all the time, even when they break the law they say take me to court. If u dare & win the just take it to final appeal and win eventually.
My advice is 3 fold.
1) choose another career all together.
2) Choose a carrier in ur home country, if no experience at 1st work in ME, SEA or HKA & take out loan if u need pay for endorsment etc. but using CX as that route will take 6yrs min.
3) Join CX and I told u so.
For info a London tube drivers Salary starting 50,oooP per yr. and takes less than a yrs training from scratch.
BA Direct entry pilot F/O 47K but increase alot over the yrs.
Think long term..
Last edited by crewsunite; 26th Mar 2011 at 13:47.
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Seatrump
Are they paying for your flight to HKG and Hotel....Last time we were there...Not only they paid for our flight/hotel...they also give us Cash for our 3 days stay..I really want to know if they are picking up the bill....as I understand it the other ICadets have to pay out of their own pocket
...Good luck in your interview....Or I should say reinterview
Are they paying for your flight to HKG and Hotel....Last time we were there...Not only they paid for our flight/hotel...they also give us Cash for our 3 days stay..I really want to know if they are picking up the bill....as I understand it the other ICadets have to pay out of their own pocket
...Good luck in your interview....Or I should say reinterview
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China Beached - thanks for the perspective. I agree with a lot of what you say. Cathay was in my plans for a long time, if I walk away now I walk away forever so I want to be sure of my facts before I do.
I've very familiar with HongKong - I lived in Shenzhen for years... My gut tells me to walk and the more I think about trying to live in HKG the more I realize how crap the allowance is but I feel I would be remiss not to take the interview. Not sure why. Due diligence perhaps. Having been in Asia for some time I feel my family will be soon ready to leave. As a result the lack of outstation basing availability is probably the real dealbreaker for me. I am well positioned to take advantage of the apparent pending hiring about to take place in the US. So perhaps the interview is just a formality for me, maybe I'm hoping for a miracle about face with the housing.... This will be my last hurrah with Cathay.
Uspilot - yes they are covering the flight and hotel. Not sure about the stipend - I got that last time too. Nice touch then. I'm already in Asia so not far for me to travel and I am free on the days they proposed. Have always enjoyed trips to HKG. They even invited my wife along again.
I've very familiar with HongKong - I lived in Shenzhen for years... My gut tells me to walk and the more I think about trying to live in HKG the more I realize how crap the allowance is but I feel I would be remiss not to take the interview. Not sure why. Due diligence perhaps. Having been in Asia for some time I feel my family will be soon ready to leave. As a result the lack of outstation basing availability is probably the real dealbreaker for me. I am well positioned to take advantage of the apparent pending hiring about to take place in the US. So perhaps the interview is just a formality for me, maybe I'm hoping for a miracle about face with the housing.... This will be my last hurrah with Cathay.
Uspilot - yes they are covering the flight and hotel. Not sure about the stipend - I got that last time too. Nice touch then. I'm already in Asia so not far for me to travel and I am free on the days they proposed. Have always enjoyed trips to HKG. They even invited my wife along again.
Anyone who has been in Cathay long enough has seen them use the line “This is the final offer" line before. They are bluffing you. I will tell you that they are desperate for experienced pilots to fill the short iCad courses. They are wanting close to 300 pilots in the next twelve months and they can’t achieve this with long course iCads alone. If enough experienced applicants say no to this inferior offer then they will be forced to improve it, ideally to the existing conditions enjoyed by those already here.