Cathay Pacific Cadet Pilot Programme
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Em773ER,
you pose a good question. I think it was Titan404 who last year wrote a pretty good post showing that in a 30 year career as an example, a cadet (i.e no housing) would potentially lose 9million hong kong dollars. This is based on a very conservative housing allowance of 25'000 per month for 30 years.
The integrated course is roughly 1.1million. Basically, whilst one may think you are getting free traning, you are potentially paying 9X the integrated course therefore your CX traning is actually the most expensive course in the world.
Now my complaint at the time was that this was slightly idealistic and very black and white- i.e writing some very good financial maths to support his own opinion that can easily be twisted to support another. Because actually, you are not losing 9milllion, you are just 9million worse off than the guy sitting next to you and if you can deal with that and not be annoyed in 5/10/or 20 years time, then there is no problem then.
Playing devils advocate, I brought up other factors. Like what if CX never open up DESO/DEFO again. Or what if you spend 10 years flying GA in some godforsaken hell hole earning sod-all per hour gaining hours hoping to join whatever legacy carrier you dreamed off only to have your CV rejected like a hundred thousand others in the world. I can write one hundred other arguments as to why I think the scheme is not so bad and likewise, others will be able to write one hundred arguments as to why the scheme is crap.
This cadet scheme discussion has been on going since it opened up to internationals in June 2009. And it will never end.
Anyway Erm to answer your question, this airline has seniority numbers just like any other airline I'd assume and based on date of joining. When there is an upgrade coming up, and your number is next in line, then you go for the upgrade. There is NO difference between a 60 week cadet SO and a 6 week cadet SO with X'thousand hours in terms of career progression or finances etc.
The only difference is that the 6 week TT guy who has X'thousand hours under his belt will be ridiculed and disrespected by many. The main argument here is that these guys with all those hours and experience should not be accepting an offer that just 2 years ago was so much better. CX paid top premium in the past for experienced guys, and if those experienced guys are now taking the offer on lower terms, then it is bad for us all - the whole industry.
you pose a good question. I think it was Titan404 who last year wrote a pretty good post showing that in a 30 year career as an example, a cadet (i.e no housing) would potentially lose 9million hong kong dollars. This is based on a very conservative housing allowance of 25'000 per month for 30 years.
The integrated course is roughly 1.1million. Basically, whilst one may think you are getting free traning, you are potentially paying 9X the integrated course therefore your CX traning is actually the most expensive course in the world.
Now my complaint at the time was that this was slightly idealistic and very black and white- i.e writing some very good financial maths to support his own opinion that can easily be twisted to support another. Because actually, you are not losing 9milllion, you are just 9million worse off than the guy sitting next to you and if you can deal with that and not be annoyed in 5/10/or 20 years time, then there is no problem then.
Playing devils advocate, I brought up other factors. Like what if CX never open up DESO/DEFO again. Or what if you spend 10 years flying GA in some godforsaken hell hole earning sod-all per hour gaining hours hoping to join whatever legacy carrier you dreamed off only to have your CV rejected like a hundred thousand others in the world. I can write one hundred other arguments as to why I think the scheme is not so bad and likewise, others will be able to write one hundred arguments as to why the scheme is crap.
This cadet scheme discussion has been on going since it opened up to internationals in June 2009. And it will never end.
Anyway Erm to answer your question, this airline has seniority numbers just like any other airline I'd assume and based on date of joining. When there is an upgrade coming up, and your number is next in line, then you go for the upgrade. There is NO difference between a 60 week cadet SO and a 6 week cadet SO with X'thousand hours in terms of career progression or finances etc.
The only difference is that the 6 week TT guy who has X'thousand hours under his belt will be ridiculed and disrespected by many. The main argument here is that these guys with all those hours and experience should not be accepting an offer that just 2 years ago was so much better. CX paid top premium in the past for experienced guys, and if those experienced guys are now taking the offer on lower terms, then it is bad for us all - the whole industry.
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Em773ER
In addition to the excellent answers below/above ( whichever way you look at it )
I would suggest Pilot A would have a lot more confidence, spare capacity and better situational awareness than Pilot B. Pilot B's ability to follow a green or pink line on an ND will not be argued, but his ability to feel, hear, anticipate, sense, judge, think, love, nurture ( sometimes the BSJ's need this ) will definately be lacking. This will probably cause him to struggle through his training and checking, unless of course he is an Ace.
In addition to the excellent answers below/above ( whichever way you look at it )
I would suggest Pilot A would have a lot more confidence, spare capacity and better situational awareness than Pilot B. Pilot B's ability to follow a green or pink line on an ND will not be argued, but his ability to feel, hear, anticipate, sense, judge, think, love, nurture ( sometimes the BSJ's need this ) will definately be lacking. This will probably cause him to struggle through his training and checking, unless of course he is an Ace.
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Nice post betpump!
I suppose you are a employee of CX? Based @VHHH.. Did you do the CX CPP too?
It is, as how I see it, a win-win situation. I know that a lot of people here will blame me but it is, how I see it. Those who can't afford a flight training can gain via this way their dreamjob. Okay, you won't get the best pay, but hey, you don't pay for your training and you don't have to search for a job! Know a lot of guys who are doing everything to get that right seat on a plane, with really NO answers to their e-mails, letters and things like that. I've been told that it is horrible to have a huge loan which grows and grows, looks unstoppable, and there are really a lot of people who are trying to get that same job on the plane.. There are now a lot of ab-initio's on the market with no work.
Via this chance I hope to enroll this CPP, so I don't have to take a huge loan and I don't have to search for a job! Okay, I will life at basic pay, but I've never lived rich.
Maybe some people want to add some things to my post?? Feel free! =D
Those which half a year ago to one year did the selection processes helped their mates here on PPRune.. C'me on people! There must be cadet prospectives here which went to the selection stages? No one wants to tell or give information about there stages? And how it went?..
CW
I suppose you are a employee of CX? Based @VHHH.. Did you do the CX CPP too?
It is, as how I see it, a win-win situation. I know that a lot of people here will blame me but it is, how I see it. Those who can't afford a flight training can gain via this way their dreamjob. Okay, you won't get the best pay, but hey, you don't pay for your training and you don't have to search for a job! Know a lot of guys who are doing everything to get that right seat on a plane, with really NO answers to their e-mails, letters and things like that. I've been told that it is horrible to have a huge loan which grows and grows, looks unstoppable, and there are really a lot of people who are trying to get that same job on the plane.. There are now a lot of ab-initio's on the market with no work.
Via this chance I hope to enroll this CPP, so I don't have to take a huge loan and I don't have to search for a job! Okay, I will life at basic pay, but I've never lived rich.
Maybe some people want to add some things to my post?? Feel free! =D
Those which half a year ago to one year did the selection processes helped their mates here on PPRune.. C'me on people! There must be cadet prospectives here which went to the selection stages? No one wants to tell or give information about there stages? And how it went?..
CW
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CW
your not the sharpest tool in the shed
..you come here asking questions and when you don't like what your hear you say will the way I see it, this is win-win situation...Ok than if its win-win than why ask go and take the job...that is if they hire you
...God guys get a life.
your not the sharpest tool in the shed
..you come here asking questions and when you don't like what your hear you say will the way I see it, this is win-win situation...Ok than if its win-win than why ask go and take the job...that is if they hire you...God guys get a life.
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I just wanted to tell my story.. is that so bad then?? And the true stories that I read here, okay, those who are okay with the offer will accept it, those who aren't wont. But I never said that I disliked the offer of CX..
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Weird
CW, with responses like this:
you arent doing yourself any favours! Firstly, you dont have to take a huge loan for flight training... go get a job in McDonalds and spend each pay on flying! if you really want to be a pilot, you will do whatever it takes to get into a plane! It is very frustrating seeing people jumping at the cadet program because it is "free"... it makes my blood boil thinking that people are only applying, without 1 hour of experience, because they have seen an ad for the cadet program and have decided that it might be a fun thing to do. How do you even know you are going to enjoy it?
Via this chance I hope to enroll this CPP, so I don't have to take a huge loan and I don't have to search for a job!
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thanks everyone for your input!
i still wonder what CX will do if an exodus happens in a few years pilots leaving for different airlines, with their fleet expansion. maybe they will increase the T&Cs and start recruiting DEFOs and DESOs if they are not getting enough cadets to fill the right seats.... time will tell
i still wonder what CX will do if an exodus happens in a few years pilots leaving for different airlines, with their fleet expansion. maybe they will increase the T&Cs and start recruiting DEFOs and DESOs if they are not getting enough cadets to fill the right seats.... time will tell
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Dear Lost&Found,
You interpretate my state incorrect. What I want to make clear is that it is really an advantage, in the case that if you are looking to your bankaccount. I'm already started with saving money for my PPL. To make this clear: I fly every ear with the local flying club. Not for a course, but for the adventure.
What I just want to make clear is that this is a huge opportunity for the most of us!
You interpretate my state incorrect. What I want to make clear is that it is really an advantage, in the case that if you are looking to your bankaccount. I'm already started with saving money for my PPL. To make this clear: I fly every ear with the local flying club. Not for a course, but for the adventure.
What I just want to make clear is that this is a huge opportunity for the most of us!
captain.weird
I suggest you do a little more research than the CX careers website. Let’s look at two people that join CX. One as an ab-initio cadet and the other as a DESO. Both stay with CX for 6 years and then leave.
Ab-initio Cadet
1. Cost of pilot training paid by you with “Forgivable Loan” from CX = HK$1,100,000.00
2. After 6 years the “Forgivable Loan” is classed by the Inland Revenue Department as income and is taxed at the highest marginal rate of 17% = HK$187,000.00
3. 6 Years of “Housing Cash Allowance” = HK$720,000.00
4. Tax on Housing = HK$122,400.00
5. Net Financial Gain after 6 years = HK$410,600.00
DESO
1. Cost of privately funding pilot training = HK$540,000.00
2. 6 Years of “Housing Allowance, owner occupier” = HK$3,813,600.00 (Based on April 2011 housing assistance)
3. Tax on Housing = HK$648,312.00
4. Net Financial gain after 6 years = HK$2,625,288.00
So what has the cadet scheme costed you? The difference between the DESO and Cadet net financial gains = HK$2,214,688.00 which in Australian dollars = AU$266,830.00. That’s a pretty expensive flying training course no matter which way you look at it. My advice is there isn’t a free lunch.
Basair flying training courses
I suggest you do a little more research than the CX careers website. Let’s look at two people that join CX. One as an ab-initio cadet and the other as a DESO. Both stay with CX for 6 years and then leave.
Ab-initio Cadet
1. Cost of pilot training paid by you with “Forgivable Loan” from CX = HK$1,100,000.00
2. After 6 years the “Forgivable Loan” is classed by the Inland Revenue Department as income and is taxed at the highest marginal rate of 17% = HK$187,000.00
3. 6 Years of “Housing Cash Allowance” = HK$720,000.00
4. Tax on Housing = HK$122,400.00
5. Net Financial Gain after 6 years = HK$410,600.00
DESO
1. Cost of privately funding pilot training = HK$540,000.00
2. 6 Years of “Housing Allowance, owner occupier” = HK$3,813,600.00 (Based on April 2011 housing assistance)
3. Tax on Housing = HK$648,312.00
4. Net Financial gain after 6 years = HK$2,625,288.00
So what has the cadet scheme costed you? The difference between the DESO and Cadet net financial gains = HK$2,214,688.00 which in Australian dollars = AU$266,830.00. That’s a pretty expensive flying training course no matter which way you look at it. My advice is there isn’t a free lunch.
Basair flying training courses
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404 Titan
Hi Everyone,
After thoroughly reading this thread for some time, I have come to the conclusion that the CPP is not as attractive as CX make it out to be, and whilst at first I was a bit skeptical as to the disadvantages compared to the advantages, I've made an informed decision as to possibly decline the current contract terms (if I get that far).
I'll have to thank 404 for speaking out about the true restraints of the current offer, and whilst I thought 404 was a bit of a tight A55 at first, you were only trying to help (Which is confirmed through various threads years earlier!)
Anyway good luck to all those applying, but read between the lines and whether you'll be willing to stick it out as a career and not merely free training!
After thoroughly reading this thread for some time, I have come to the conclusion that the CPP is not as attractive as CX make it out to be, and whilst at first I was a bit skeptical as to the disadvantages compared to the advantages, I've made an informed decision as to possibly decline the current contract terms (if I get that far).
I'll have to thank 404 for speaking out about the true restraints of the current offer, and whilst I thought 404 was a bit of a tight A55 at first, you were only trying to help (Which is confirmed through various threads years earlier!)
Anyway good luck to all those applying, but read between the lines and whether you'll be willing to stick it out as a career and not merely free training!
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Dear Titan 404,
I've done a lot of research and you gave me the numbers which I already knew. Still I'm doing reserch, never is it too much.
I'm aware of the financial side of the contract.
From now on I want to retreat myself and read the posts here.
Thank you very much for your post Titan 404!
CW
I've done a lot of research and you gave me the numbers which I already knew. Still I'm doing reserch, never is it too much.
I'm aware of the financial side of the contract.
From now on I want to retreat myself and read the posts here.
Thank you very much for your post Titan 404!
CW
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If you don't have any flying experience it is a good deal. As you point out 404 you are far worse off than a DESO after 6 years but lets think about the other option and how it usually works out for most guys with a CPL/IR. You pay for your training and then don't get a job. Most people who get a CPL/IR never end up working for an airline or flying anything other than a light piston if they are lucky enough to get a job flying.
If you already have a couple of thousand hours don't sell yourself short, you have done the hard bit getting that first flying job.
If you already have a couple of thousand hours don't sell yourself short, you have done the hard bit getting that first flying job.
SloppyJoe
That may be the case but the vast majority that have the will, the enthusiasm, the passion and the persistence will make it. Just in any walk of life there will be those that don’t have a clue. My experience from 26 years in the industry is that most make it.
I should point out that the figures I gave in my previous quote are the best case for an iCad. If they were to resign the day before six years the figure blows out to HK$3,127,688.00 or in AUS dollars AU$376,830.00. If they were to stay until 65 the figure would be in excess of AU$1,000,000.00 but I will have to work that figure out more accurately when I have a bit more time.
captain.weird
How would you know the figures? Unless you work for CX the numbers I have used are confidential and only known to those already working here.
If you really want to sign up for a flying training course that is effectively going to cost you as little as AU$266,830.00 or as much as AU$1,000,000.00+ when you could do it privately for about AU$65,000.00 be my guest.
That may be the case but the vast majority that have the will, the enthusiasm, the passion and the persistence will make it. Just in any walk of life there will be those that don’t have a clue. My experience from 26 years in the industry is that most make it.
I should point out that the figures I gave in my previous quote are the best case for an iCad. If they were to resign the day before six years the figure blows out to HK$3,127,688.00 or in AUS dollars AU$376,830.00. If they were to stay until 65 the figure would be in excess of AU$1,000,000.00 but I will have to work that figure out more accurately when I have a bit more time.
captain.weird
I've done a lot of research and you gave me the numbers which I already knew.
If you really want to sign up for a flying training course that is effectively going to cost you as little as AU$266,830.00 or as much as AU$1,000,000.00+ when you could do it privately for about AU$65,000.00 be my guest.
cx_773er
You are making the assumption that your upgrade will happen in 4 years. It may be more or it may be less. The track record over the last 11 years is that it will get longer overall with short durations of more rapid upgrades. When I joined upgrades were happening in 18 months. It has been as long as 4.5 years and is currently just over 4 years. With CX in the not too distant future changing the crewing composition on Ultra Long Haul flights from 1xCapt, 2xFO’s & 1xSO to 1xCapt, 1xFO & 2xSO’s upgrades could very well blow out to 6+ years.
What you need to understand is that you using CX as a stepping stone rather than a career airline because you have accepted inferior T&C’s only makes it worse for us already here. It puts downward pressure on our T&C’s. It also lowers the conditions across the industry because airlines will only pay what the market dictates and you have already lowered the bar.
Why do you need to get a loan? You could join the military or you could do as I did, work full time for four years while at the same time going to university part-time and learning to fly on the weekends. It took me four years to get my licence all debt free. You need to think outside the box if you want to succeed in life and this is the first step.
If you leave before 6 years the HK$1.1M loan has to be repaid in full.
In thinking of worst case scenarios, if it really did get that bad why could a cadet not just move to another airline elsewhere and just leave HK? I understand that they are tied to the company for 6 years after completion of flight training and that they will become a second officer logging p2x hours immediately after this, but surely after a 4 years or so they will be able to log hours deemed worthy by other airlines? The last two years then of those 6 they would then be accumulating loggable hours which could be used to apply to some other airline.
Surely then could this not be a good stepping stone to stick it out with CX for a while and then move on once those 6 years are up (or you may even end up finding you like it and decide to stay!).
Yes the training is expensive but given the fact that to begin training requries obtaining a huge loan from somewhere with no gurantee of finding employment afterwards, the cx deal seems quite good?
Also, with the bond lasting 6 years, what would happen if a cadet thought enough is enough, i cannot put up with these conditions and decided they wanted to just leave? What would the resulting fine/penalty be?
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CX 777er
Do yourself a massive favour and read John Warhams' book - "The 49ers The True Story"
Available from Amazon.com either in print or on Kindle. Reading it well and truly p!sses me off, brings it all back. It should be mandatory reading for any prospective new joiner.
how have you found relations between HR and pilots?
Available from Amazon.com either in print or on Kindle. Reading it well and truly p!sses me off, brings it all back. It should be mandatory reading for any prospective new joiner.
