Kevingee21

Hello fellow pilots

I am new to A320 (321-211 to be exact)

Was studying the QRH PROC and came across this note (from FCOM-ABN):

If FLAPS jammed > 0: MAINTAIN SLAT/FLAP CONFIGURATION Recommended speed for diversion: MAX SPEED -10 kt

Note: In the case of go-around with CONF FULL selected, the L/G NOT DOWN warning is triggered at landing gear retraction.

However when reading the triggering conditions for L/G NOT DOWN none of them seem to match, closet might be #2:

2.L/G is not downlocked and radio height is lower than 750 ft and both engines are not at T.O power and flaps at 1, 2, 3 or FULL

But this doesn’t seem right also (assuming GA TOGA=T.O power). Does it trigger some system logic change inside the LGCIU?

Also another question pertaining to this note from same QRH PROC:

‐ If VLS is greater than VFE NEXT (overweight landing case), the FLAPS lever can be set in the required next position, while the speed is reduced to follow VLS reduction as surfaces extend. The VFE warning threshold should not be triggered. In this case, disconnect the A/THR. A/THR can be re-engaged when the landing configuration is established.

Why disconnect A/THR in this case? Wouldn’t keeping it connected and in SPD mode more convenient? Any reason why?

Thanks so much in advance!

Fursty Ferret

ECAM warning and cautions are driven by flight phase, so take-off is different to missed approach.

For your second question, you'll need to disconnect the autothrust in order to decelerate below VLS to get the next stage of flaps out.

Goldenrivett

“Note: In the case of go-around with CONF FULL selected, the L/G NOT DOWN warning is triggered at landing gear retraction.

However when reading the triggering conditions for L/G NOT DOWN none of them seem to match, closet might be #2:”

Hi, You will get the same warning if you select Flaps Full without the gear down.
Normally you will never attempt a take off with the Flaps Full or a GA with Flaps Full and the gear up.

vilas

Minimum terrain clearance in non mountainous area is 1000ft. In clean configuration of you go below 1000ft (even below 750ft) doesn't indicate approach and landing intention and remains an issue of terrain clearance. Selection of any flap configuration and below 750ft with thrust not at takeoff is a logic to indicate approach and landing intention. The system asks you "are you landing? Then where's the gear"?
The second question why disconnect ATHR? Because there's ATHR protection for underspeed and overspeed. It will not allow it to go below VLS for the present flap configuration and that's more than VFE Next.

320busboy

Worth noting is flap position information is passed to the efcs for control gains from the Flap/Slat CSU. Not the flap /slat physical position.

good read if you can find the report for VR-HYU in Kai Tak.

FlightDetent

A trick you might find useful for studies and later carrer. With Airbus documentation whenever you see something that spells different to what you think it should say, you need an immediate step back. That is evidence your comprehension is incorrect.

The quoted case above: "take-off power" means either TOGA or FLEX. That's how you missed the lead for the take-off case, assuming GA TOGA.

It applies for the ECAM too. Whatever it says on the screen, you must find EXACTLY the same button on the overhead.

vilas

GPWS Mode 4 has three sub modes a,b, and c. Only mode C is active during take-off it only triggers from minimum terrain clearance and radio altitude. It has nothing to do with gear or flaps.

Kevingee21

Ok I see now.

I’m thinking now the reason airbus writes T.O Power instead of TOGA is because they also factor in OEI GA which would be in FLEX/MCT.

Is this thinking right?

Sorry new to the bus.

Thanks for the reply and trick!

Kevingee21

Thank you for the reply.

So I see now this has nothing to do with GPWS mode right?

I think Post #3 by Goldenrivett might be the closet but I didn’t find in the books saying anything about this warning coming out with Flaps full and gear up.

But I think it makes the most sense because the FCOM QRH PROC note specifically says when GA with conf full selected this warning comes out.

Come to think of it, is there anything preventing you from choosing to go flaps full before putting the gears down?

When I used to fly Boeing they had this trigger that if you put flaps beyond 20 without the L/G down sirens would go off.

So I’m assuming this is also the case with airbus then?

Thanks again for the replies!

FlightDetent

The gear not down - inappropriate configuration - ECAM comes up. You mentioned it in the very first post.

The standard trigger logic is tied to RA values. Should both of them fail, this simplified voting is used:

pineteam

In normal conditions you can select flaps full before gear down and you won’t get any warning until 750 feet RA and N1 lower than 75%. I remember doing it at least once or twice when ATC asked us minimum speed very far on final.

Kevingee21

I see. So I guess this trigger comes out for just a short while during GA when I command Gear up and both ENGs have not come up to T.O POWER yet (and below 750 RA). Should cancel by itself when at T.O. POWER.

Thanks for all the replies!

FlightDetent

I have a hunch the T.O. Power in this context really means TLs in FLEX/MCT or TOGA detents. But you are right it does not spell that way, something I underscored above and thus could be wrong.

Regardless, it is would be hard to test. The G/A drïll has some steps:

1) TOGA selection
2) ..
3) ..
4) ..
5) ..
6) ..
7) ..
8) ..
9) ..
10)..
11) L/G downlocks release

The T.O. Power will be well before 11) happens.

Challenge to fill the blanks offered.

Lantirn

Since there are dozen of those posts here, I am not going to open an new thread about it.

I wanted to ask if anyone familiar with the sim knows if the ECAM line MAX SPEED….XXX changes with the actual configuration as the flaps are retracted for a diversion

CrazyStuntPilot

Yes it does to reflect the actual MAX SPEED.

Lantirn

Thank you, I fly the bus 7 years and this procedure sometimes gives me headache although its a very simple one.

Although it seems a simple procedure, (and it really is), its one of the most miscomprehended and misflown mainly due to the fact that is very poorly writen by Airbus in QRH. Also FCTM is not so explanatory as it should.

If there is a procedure to be miscommunicated with your fellow sim partner this is the one that will happen, especially on the approach.

1) How to handle the a/c when on approach after pulling speed (maintain flap configuration with absence of a standard callout for that-and this can be a mess in the sim during the G/A if the PM wants to retract). Speed is becoming managed after application of TOGA and there is a risk of overspeed and this is nowhere written, its like the procedure is written having in mind that this will happen only on departure
2) There are 2 MAX speeds you have to know, the one that you fly for the G/A and circuit and one for the diversion or "retracted configuration"
3) The naming of the technical problems (FAULT, LOCKED, JAMMED?) are complexed in the QRH (you are directed to a FLAPS JAMMED case where there is no such ECAM, you have to know WTB is on on your flaps in LOCKED, but on top you can also have WTB in the slats) Just poorly written procedure IMHO where anyone non competent can have a stupid idea of what the meaning can be....just unacceptable for such a procedure in a big manufacturer like airbus

vilas

I agree that the procedure could have been written better.The word jammed doesn't exist in ECAM because Jam is the result of two causes and ECAM wants to suggest different procedures for them. So what ECAM uses is fault or locked. Fault is for SFCC problem and it asks you to recycle just like restarting your mobile if an app didn't work properly and may get rid of it and locked for hydraulic brake which is going to stay. QRH procedure uses the word jam because irrespective of the causes that's the final result and in both cases it's applicable for conducting the approach. Max speed is decided by the VFE of the most extended surface for whatever you want do, either a goaround or diversion -10kts. Obviously whenever a surface position changes max speed will change. As far as overspeed is concerned in goaround is SRS is managed speed mode that targets GA engagement speed so no fear of exceedance. When SRS changes to no matter to what it will accelerate so need to fly in select max speed. As regards call-out whenever a nonstandard activity will be performed like maintaining configuration or not retracting gear it needs to be briefed and a call out is devices e.g. GA maintain flaps or gear. The max speed table adds to the confusion by giving some combinations which are not possible like Slat1 and Flap3. It's better to calculate from VFE speeds given above ISIS panel.

Lantirn

Hi Vilas, glad you replied to my concerns, I have been reading your very informative posts for years and i find them very enlightening.
If they wanted to make it simple, they could just have 2 cases in QRH. If flaps locked >0, do not change configuration for diversion. At all other cases, retract for diversion. While they can explain beforehand in a note above that in a G/A you dont change config no matter what. Its that simple and very basic!

My point was if you had it on final, unexpected and you wanted to G/A. But me rethinking it, you just stay below VFE for the G/A and you are ok to go. As you said confusion arises sometimes on non-standard configurations mainly due to the fact that you are going to configure for flap3 as your flaps or slats is locked (or fault) on a non-standard configuration for landing. Good point.

True and correct, but again imagine the failure to appear just below 1500ft AGL, you pull the speed to maintain config, then you hit TOGA for G/A and managed speed goes up 5-6 secs later after passing 1500 for clean up and you get it unnoticed. You had just announced your FMA, and 5 secs later...Yes, FLY NAV COM, triple clicks will happen, but performance on the sim can be less than optimal when dealing with other issues and especially if this was an approach to land while you had finished other abnormals! Capacity will not be that high and the same as you departed! But what to do, this is automation today. We have to deal.


True, but again if the failure appears on the approach, the crew will not expect that and how you can brief for an unexpected failure. You cant brief in every approach that if the flaps/slats are stuck we will maintain our config! Thats why I believe this procedure has to be more clear (at least in FCTM) and accomodate for a callout.

Going one step further, an aircraft without failures, is on final on flaps1 and ATC instructs for a G/A. Oh man. 50% of the population will say maintain config. 50% will say retract one step, as per standard callout. I had a very close friend called by our safety department that the maneuver was not done according SOPs because he maintained config. Because the standard callout is "G/A FLAPS". Yeah, sure. Because nowhere is written that its not required. G/A configuration is for climb gradient performance and with flap 1 its there and more than enough. Especially airbus that allows flight below maneuvering speeds and above vls, should have accomodated for that. No callout or description, a mess, a hole for misjudgement. Selected speed 160, flaps 1, then you G/A, you retract one step, alpha lock engages, yeah, no issue. Then deal with the safety.

FlightDetent

The off-topic part:

By their definition F and S are the retraction speeds after takeoff. Also used for manoeuvring during approach.

When flying well below S speed on purpose, the G/A scenario gets very ugly as explained. I heard once that EU's largest A319 operator insists on F2 below S, I assume the above to be the reason.

With my employer, keeping conf 1 is a no-bicscuits time as well, no matter that being the sensible choice.
​

Lantirn

My company also doesnt allow to fly below maneuvering speeds without configuring. Thats why maybe they insist on the retraction during the G/A

BTW my coleague was not in conf 1 in his flight, he had conf 2 and he maintained that during the G/A

Conf 1 was my example for the sake of discussion