Etops
Join Date: Sep 1998
Location: Oxon, UK
Age: 70
Posts: 126
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Old Smokey, I take your point about the 747 CFS
BGQ, it certainly is! It was always against my religion to do flights such as yours on less than 3 engines and with a F/E!
rgds, DCD
BGQ, it certainly is! It was always against my religion to do flights such as yours on less than 3 engines and with a F/E!
rgds, DCD
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,843
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OK BGQ, 10 out of 10, go to the top of the class. You've described the one situation where being ETOPS costs more fuel, that is, where the track must deviate from Great Circle to remain within ETOPS coverage of en-route Suitable/Acceptable/Adequate airports. That will, of course, cost more fuel.
It still remains that contingency fuel for Depressurisation / Engine out remains the same for all transport category aircraft, whether they be ETOPS or not.
Yes gashcan, Depress/Eng Inop fuel is mandated by the regulator when operating in all areas, regardless of the number of engines. The applicable reserves will invariably be specified in the operating company's fuel policy, which must be approved by the regulatory authority as required for the AOC. This covers (for any aircraft) the situation that you describe - "1.5 hrs from destination and the diversion is 2 hours do you have sufficient fuel?"
Of course, it is also a common sense requirement.
Good topic, interesting replies here, getting away from the usual "What is ETOPS" question.
Regards,
Old Smokey
It still remains that contingency fuel for Depressurisation / Engine out remains the same for all transport category aircraft, whether they be ETOPS or not.
Yes gashcan, Depress/Eng Inop fuel is mandated by the regulator when operating in all areas, regardless of the number of engines. The applicable reserves will invariably be specified in the operating company's fuel policy, which must be approved by the regulatory authority as required for the AOC. This covers (for any aircraft) the situation that you describe - "1.5 hrs from destination and the diversion is 2 hours do you have sufficient fuel?"
Of course, it is also a common sense requirement.
Good topic, interesting replies here, getting away from the usual "What is ETOPS" question.
Regards,
Old Smokey
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wanaka
Posts: 90
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Old smokey,
While the ETOPs fuel is greater than the great circle fuel, in the case described, the engine out depressurised fuel in the last sector requires more gas than the increased fuel load for flying the ETOPS route and that and is the limiting factor.
It mostly depends upon the distance apart of the available ETP airfields and the winds at 10,000 ft.
Pilots flying these sectors are always concious of remaining within the required range circle and having the gas to get there single engine depressurised.
For the B763 you have been correct all along that engine out depressurised (flown single engine with TAS 370kts at 10,000ft ) fuel is the more limiting fuel scenario than the ETOPs fuel (flown on one engine pressurised at 415 knots TAS at whatever altitude you can).
I imagine that the same situation exists for all other extended range twins. That's why my first statement that the bottom line of ETOPS is staying within the appropriate range circle of an adequate and suitable airfield.
I agree it has been interesting and thought provoking. Good topic.
While the ETOPs fuel is greater than the great circle fuel, in the case described, the engine out depressurised fuel in the last sector requires more gas than the increased fuel load for flying the ETOPS route and that and is the limiting factor.
It mostly depends upon the distance apart of the available ETP airfields and the winds at 10,000 ft.
Pilots flying these sectors are always concious of remaining within the required range circle and having the gas to get there single engine depressurised.
For the B763 you have been correct all along that engine out depressurised (flown single engine with TAS 370kts at 10,000ft ) fuel is the more limiting fuel scenario than the ETOPs fuel (flown on one engine pressurised at 415 knots TAS at whatever altitude you can).
I imagine that the same situation exists for all other extended range twins. That's why my first statement that the bottom line of ETOPS is staying within the appropriate range circle of an adequate and suitable airfield.
I agree it has been interesting and thought provoking. Good topic.
BGQ
With the flight you mentioned, was there a hefty penalty on the payload in order to carry the fuel required?
I've done flights from Paris to KUL in the 777-200 some 6 years ago. There was a consistantly 4500kgs of payload had to be offloaded in order to carry the required fuel for ETOPS over bay of Bengal. Soon, the company opted for a route a little further up north to avoid ETOPS, and took all payload (at MTOW)we can carry from Paris.
Great topic.
I've done flights from Paris to KUL in the 777-200 some 6 years ago. There was a consistantly 4500kgs of payload had to be offloaded in order to carry the required fuel for ETOPS over bay of Bengal. Soon, the company opted for a route a little further up north to avoid ETOPS, and took all payload (at MTOW)we can carry from Paris.
Great topic.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wanaka
Posts: 90
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flightleader
We always seem to be able to carry the pax and the cargo on the Tahiti-LAX sector in the 763 (about 8 1/2 hrs). We get hit on payload on the Fiji - Lax sector (closer to 11 1/2 hrs) but in both cases the single engine depressurised fuel requirement is more punishing than the ETOPS fuel.
In the last part of the flight we are using HNL and LAX as the enroute alternates.
In both cases a large deviatition north of the great circle track is required to stay within the 180mins range circles.
We always seem to be able to carry the pax and the cargo on the Tahiti-LAX sector in the 763 (about 8 1/2 hrs). We get hit on payload on the Fiji - Lax sector (closer to 11 1/2 hrs) but in both cases the single engine depressurised fuel requirement is more punishing than the ETOPS fuel.
In the last part of the flight we are using HNL and LAX as the enroute alternates.
In both cases a large deviatition north of the great circle track is required to stay within the 180mins range circles.
BGQ
Thanks for the reply. As I 'm not familiar with that part of the world, I would appreciate if you could elaborate more.
From AKL (or SYD for the matter) going eastward, would you be using AKL and Tahiti as enroute alternate or you have some other airfield i between?
In term of airfield,are there any different choices for B767 and B747? Would the B747 have to be routed further up north?
On the 767,when you arrive LAX, what is the fuel onboard like? Is it a lot more than you need for your destination alternate?
Thanks.
Thanks for the reply. As I 'm not familiar with that part of the world, I would appreciate if you could elaborate more.
From AKL (or SYD for the matter) going eastward, would you be using AKL and Tahiti as enroute alternate or you have some other airfield i between?
In term of airfield,are there any different choices for B767 and B747? Would the B747 have to be routed further up north?
On the 767,when you arrive LAX, what is the fuel onboard like? Is it a lot more than you need for your destination alternate?
Thanks.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wanaka
Posts: 90
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
New Zealand CAA Rules which are pretty much aligned to FAA Rules.
Air NZ was one of the early ETOPS operators and probably operates over some of the most limiting sectors worldwide.
Air NZ was one of the early ETOPS operators and probably operates over some of the most limiting sectors worldwide.
Join Date: Dec 1998
Location: England
Posts: 242
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Longest ETOPS Single-Engine Drag to Date
A couple of years back a (United?) 777 (or was it a 763?) did a longest ever overwater single-engine transit into Hawaii (Hilo?).
.
Was that a/c Rolls-Royce equipped?
.
Anybody have a reference (or link) or other details for it?
.
Was that a/c Rolls-Royce equipped?
.
Anybody have a reference (or link) or other details for it?
Originally Posted by flightleader
From AKL (or SYD for the matter) going eastward, would you be using AKL and Tahiti as enroute alternate or you have some other airfield i between?
On Airliners.net somebody asked about nonstop AKL-ORD or AKL-JFK, and it turned out the dogleg to stay within 1200 nm added less than 100 nm to the trip, compared to the great circle. The critical point is the Hilo-LAX equipoint-- you can fly direct from AKL to there, then direct from there to destination.
But 1200 nm is conservative?
By the way-- Is the 10000-ft runway on San Nicolas Island out of the question as an allowed alternate?
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: England
Posts: 303
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Longest ETOPS S.E. Diversion (thus far)
The longest ETOPS-related emergency flight diversion (192 min. under one engine power) was conducted on a United Airlines' Boeing 777-200ER, carrying 255 passengers, on March 17, 2003 over the southern Pacific ocean.
UA842 from AKL to LAX on 17.March 2003 was forced to fly a 190min
diversion on 1 engine over the Pacific. The captain had to shut
down the number 2 engine (PW4090) because the oil pressure
dropped dramatically. The aircraft (N780UA) was diverted to KOA (Kona Intl)and
it landed safely. Indications are that the engine may have
suffered a bearing failure. UA says that the time on 1 engine
was just over 3 hours, but the FAA says it was 190 to 193min.
UA842 from AKL to LAX on 17.March 2003 was forced to fly a 190min
diversion on 1 engine over the Pacific. The captain had to shut
down the number 2 engine (PW4090) because the oil pressure
dropped dramatically. The aircraft (N780UA) was diverted to KOA (Kona Intl)and
it landed safely. Indications are that the engine may have
suffered a bearing failure. UA says that the time on 1 engine
was just over 3 hours, but the FAA says it was 190 to 193min.
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: oop north
Age: 54
Posts: 419
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by pjumbo
ETOPS is all about FUEL. Making sure, at the planning stage, that you have enough fuel on board at all times, for the worst case scenario, (Critical Fuel Scenario).
For the A330 aircraft, this is an engine failure and pressurisation failure at the same time, occuring at the Critical Fuel Point (a point on the route where there is the least amount of fuel left on board, which is available to cover the Critical Fuel Scenario). This would require an immediate descent, followed by a diversion at FL 100 to a suitable airport.
Clearly, there is much more to the subject than the above. But hope this gives you a basic idea.
Happy flying..........
pjumbo
For the A330 aircraft, this is an engine failure and pressurisation failure at the same time, occuring at the Critical Fuel Point (a point on the route where there is the least amount of fuel left on board, which is available to cover the Critical Fuel Scenario). This would require an immediate descent, followed by a diversion at FL 100 to a suitable airport.
Clearly, there is much more to the subject than the above. But hope this gives you a basic idea.
Happy flying..........
pjumbo
