It looks like the captain had a vendetta against this chap, maybe he stole his chicK the previous night.
I do get vexed when I read the holier than thou reports.
There would not be a pilot in the world (except those that do not take alchohol at all for any reason) that has not been on a bender of some sorts and then had to go to work.
I have done it and had a real hard day, and when I was a captain, I had the odd co pilot who had been on the booze up to the legal 12 hour bottle to throttle rule and still reeked of booze.
My responce was dependant on the route to be flown etc,but it was usually TFN on this leg.
We will have a parley about this at the end of the day.
At this point I become very biblical.

HE WITHOUT SIN, CAST THE FIRST STONE.

I like a tipple and enjoy happy hour at the end of the day. Consuming alcohol (for now) is a legal and centuries old tradition. We of the libertine persuasion simply find ourselves in an age of puritanism, which rears its ugly head from time to time.

The rules are quite clear. You can drink to a point and then must stop if you are to perform your job, legally and safely. If you can't do that, you need to either seek help, reach deep down into your own resolve to get a grip, or let the flying profession go.

I submit that maybe 90% of the fun in life is built around alcohol, but so are 90% of the problems. If you like to drink, you always need to be mindful that you don't come to like to drink too much, and endeavor to keep a handle on it.

I like to drink, but I've never had to worry about getting a breath test because I have always strictly adhered to the alcohol rules, which is all I allow anyone to ask of me in that regard. It's also all I demand of the other pilot, but I do demand it.

The kicker is that if a occasional drinker goes on a binder and sucks down 20 drinks he would be absolutely useless the next day or in a coma. If a seasoned drinker does this he would be just as sharp as could be asked for despite his BAC. We follow a general scale to comply with public expectations. Doing 3 years in prison for being a social deviant who did no harm to anyone seems excessive.

ALL research says grounded27 is incorrect
 

grounded27:

A recently published article in a professional health journal says:

"Our findings indicate that the motor component of information processing recovers during declining BACs, but it appears that the cognitive effects of the drug linger well after motor performance is back to drug-free levels," said Schweizer. The reduction in motor impairment as BACs decrease could create the illusion of complete sobriety and prompt the undertaking of activities requiring cognitive processes that are still greatly impaired....

The mismatch between motor and cognitive recovery … creates special hazards that may have implications for accident risks. A drinker who is about to drive a vehicle immediately after recovering from a drinking episode may be more dangerous than while actively drinking because they mistakenly assume they're okay."

The problem presented by your attitude “If a seasoned drinker does this he would be just as sharp as could be asked for despite his BAC. We follow a general scale to comply with public expectations.“ is the major problem that must be overcome to diminish the risk of alcohol induced transportation accidents.

The “experienced” drinker has only learned to hide his symptoms but every piece of research ever done shows that the motor and later the cognitive impairment is still present - long after the “experienced” drinker is positive he is 100% sober.

I am no prude and am a very “experienced” drinker who has been told more than once by their physician to lighten up on the alcohol. I do enjoy more than one drink and will always have more than one – EXCEPT – when I am driving my bus. It is then a minimum of 12 hours if I’ve had 2 drinks and 18 if I’ve had more.

That blood test at 6 AM signon might trip me up the night after some fun – my 2nd career is then over.

Tacoma
 

You are sort of living proof to what I had been hinting at. Where do you think a doctor is going to find an expert drinker? Who will admit to their actual consumption? The liability of health insurance and keeping your job prevents most all heavy drinkers from asking for help if they can not quit. Most regulate in the business of aviation to their legal limit. Published medical journals are bias as our society even out of aviation will not give them a true platform of regular people to judge from! Like said above heavy drinkers calculate and manage their lives. It is only the idiots that are like the POI of the thread starter that bring light to the issue.

Surely in this day and age, with all the technological advances in aircraft and the operation thereof, it's not too far fetched to impliment a system that stops the folks controlling these fantastic machines from being off their trolleys on fermented vegetable matter whilst in the cockpit ?

i.e. compulsory breath tests for every pilot before every flight.

It takes seconds to perform and would eradicate all risk of any pilot taking control whilst over the limit, and all the associated "tell or don't tell" moral wrangling.

There can be no justifiable argument against this.

Sure this would work. Perhaps we could start on politicians, doctors, lawyers, bankers, teachers, dentists, and every swinging d!ck on wall street.
No one is as regulated as airline pilots, pee tests at the gate, every six months at the medical, etc.
I for one don't think we need any more regulation, perhaps more personal responsibility.

Fine by me, but they should also check alertness levels to prevent operating while fatigued, which can be just as impairing as controlled substances.

If alcohol requires such a solution, then surely fatigue should as well. After all, fatigue has been a contributing factor in a huge number of accidents. Alcohol has only been a factor in very few, I can only think of one (Aeroflot Nord 737-500 spiral in Northern Russia).

Oh, I forgot, we want to give the illusion of doing something as opposed to actually improving the situation. :hmm:

Airbubba, thanks for the book reference, it makes interesting reading.

Why not BAC every pilot and cabin crewmember while reporting for work. It’s done in many countries and proves quite reliable. While at it why not the ground engineers too. Perhaps it may give those dependent to think twice before doing the old twelve ounce curl.
As for te F/O... he's probably better off not being in the cockpit. Not saying that jail tme willdo him any good.

I'm curious to know what took the skipper so long to realize the F/O was still three sheets to the wind? Shouldn't he share in some of the blame?

Captain Prouse's one star review of Balzer's book may be found here on the right hand column of the page:

Crews should self-police first and foremost.The next line of defense should be in-house with one free warning.Then the TSA.This never happened in the past because crews always took care of their own.But we werent politically correct way back then and there was no TSA.Just like the security issue for crews,its a sign of the times.

@captjns
""Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither."
Ben Franklin.

A tricky one. I daresay many pilots, particularly those over 50, will have imbibed the odd potion or two within 8 hours of report. Nonetheless, the world has changed and no one can reasonably argue that they have not been warned of the consequences in this day and age. In years gone by men doing unspeakable things with men would have got a jail sentence. Today they can get 'married', you will be berated for doing 32mph in a 30 limit, nobody cares if you take drugs for 'recreational purposes' and drinking and flying is seen as a grievous crime. No doubt we all have our own views on each of these matters, but these are the rules that we have to work within. You cannot help but feel a sense of tragedy for the individual concerned, but he cannot say he did not know the deal. Also, in the Captain's defence, he did not come to work looking to shop someone. He was faced with a nightmare situation - he is damned if he does and damned if he does not. Not to report such an incident is a sackable offence and to report it makes him a pariah - an unenviable position indeed.

Rule is rules. When I did my military training, a lot of the older instructors were ex-WW2, and we were expected to "be in the bar until it closes, breakfast at 7, brief at 8, airborne at 9." Then it was an 8 hour rule, or generally 3 hours per pint (remembering that you are processing the early ones while still drinking the later ones). Then it became 12 hours. Once the random testing was introduced, I stopped drinking a minimum of 24 hours before duty, since the AME had told me traces sufficient to ground you can be detected up until then. It meant really only drinking on the first night of a two-day weekend, but that was the only way to stay clean. Thankfully I'm now retired and it doesn't affect me; the bummer is I'm on medication which prevents any alcohol being taken.:{

The breath test at the boarding gate wouldn't have stopped the bottle in the briefcase being taken into the toilet before top-of-descent ( and no, my lips are sealed and of course I have no proof) but I guess the TSA would now ensure that only 100 mls. of the stuff would be carried aboard anyway !

It is rumoured, and alleged, that a certain airline from a country known for its' fine wines allowed some of its' products as part of the crew meal ? ( we are talking Rumours as well as News, aren't we ? )

Bombay was a 'Dry State' but alcohol was rationed officially to registered alchoholics, and on a 5 day forced alcohol free slip, it was not occasionally unknown for crew members to register as such. Getting off the aircraft one day a crew were passed such a certificate with some beer allowance still remaining, which, the departing crew suggested, would alleviate their coming forced teetotal misery.

At the hotel they practised forging the applicants signature shown on the document, and him who best copied it was sent forthwith to the Customs store to purchase the remaining beer allowance,whereupon the Guardian of the Beer said .... funny, Captain XXXX left for Hong Kong this morning, now if you want some beer, just pay me an extra 5 rupees a bottle ( this was some years ago you understand ) and you can have what you want without the need for any certificate.

Problem solved.

ExSp33db1rd
 

Maybe you've seen this film ? If not you, and all the rest here should.

"The Pilot" with Clif Robertson (he flies his own Pits in the movie) They used an ONA DC8 with an ONA crew:ok:

Comments folks when you've watched it, or have already:D

G-HALE quotes

I’m not quite sure where you are going with your citation of Benjamin Franklin.

However, when one signs on the dotted line for employment with a carrier, that individual promises to follow the SOPs, contained within the company’s manual system which includes the Company Ops Manuals.

There are certain liberties are surrendered when one accepts the job… ranging from when must report to work to consumption of alcohol and drugs. Also, Company Operations Manuals at former and current carriers contain language concerning random BAC and drug testing.

At the end of the day, are we really sacrificing liberty for security for the sake of safety of opertation of a flight?

captjns:

Virtually every worker in all fields agrees to conditions of employment. I am sure most, if not all airline employment agreements limit what you can say publicly about your airline, and so forth.

To anengineer,

Yes there are technologies that can be implemented to stop any user (pilot, driver, machine operator) from using any item by means of a breath test.
In Europe much work has been done on hard wiring breath test machines in to cars, but they are all too flawed.

The technology cannot differentiate between alcohol on your breath from a "night before"' session, and the mouthwash you've just used.
An for the more lateral thinkers, you can always get someone else to blow in a tube. That is unless you want an officer with a special blow-into-my-bag testing all flight crew as they put their socks back on after going through the airport scanner.

"Airbubba, thanks for the book reference, it makes interesting reading."


The capt had a colorful personality that some avoided prior to the '90 incident.

Glad it turned out well for both of them.

We all condemn the man for flying whilst drunk. How about flying when tired? It's just the same but deemed to be OK. I have many a time broken cloud before dawn to face a wet runway and crosswind landing when I have been in a far worse state than four pints of beer produces, just due to tiredness.

Ponshus, retired thank God.

Well said ponshus!

And this made 3 pages :D

:D

In the words of the late Bernard Manning, "drink and drive if you want to, nothing worse than being in a smash, sober...."

Nice way to close the 13th, Ginger. Always up for a laff. As I stumbled out of my fave drinkin hole, tried to put the keys in the slot, cop comes up to me & says " I hope you are not planning to drive ? " " Of course I am ", said I, " I am too pished to walk" !! Boom Boom !

Poor guy, what a shame to throw itvall a way over a beer, Will his loss of licence insurance cover this out of interest (if he had any)

One could also say, how many pilots in the last 10 years of aircraft crashes were under the influence and how many sober?, one bets that statistic will show it is safer to fly drunk.

As the UK drink driving deaths.....

• Nearly one in six of all deaths on the road involve drivers who are over the legal alcohol limit.

;)

So 5 out of 6 were sober? better drive drunk it's safer;)

NutLoose laments...


How about stupid ba$tard:*??? More appropriate term given the circumtances.

Loss of license insurance:D:D??? I wish it would cover for this type of loss of license. I think many would raise a glass to the honor of the stupid ba$tard:ok::}.

Then talk about a pilot shortage:E.

Six months seems a bit slight compared compared to the motoring world.

I hope the airline has taken action over the Captain's lack of situational awareness.

As this story made the press, you can be assured the travelling public won’t be seeing this miscreant on a United Express, or any other US carrier for the foreseeable future.


This event will no doubt appear on the list of his “FAA Violations and Actions” file.


That said, even his chances for employment overseas are down the drain too.


Yep… the world of aviation is now a safer place with one less toper out of the cockpit.

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve n
 

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-Benjamin Franklin

I think what G-Hale was actually saying was "Innocent until proven guilty"

Mr. Franklin did not subscribe to "democracy" (No objections to free elections) "Do we have a democracy Mr. Franklin?" they asked after a lengthy constitutional convention. "No Sir, you have a Republic...if you can keep it!"

If we all hell bent on reversing (random searches, drug/alcohol tests without cause etc) that pillar of civilzed society.....then watch out!

The passengers were lucky, everyone died in this accident when the pilot was under the influence of drugs and booze


http://www.bfu-web.de/cln_030/nn_226..._Egelsbach.pdf

Shell Management
 

Your quote is in regard to PPL's - not Professional Pilots - as such I do not see the point of your post.

The point of his post, like most of his posts on here, is to stir cr@p up & berate pilots whilst trumpeting the high health & safety standards & work ethics of the oil/gas industry.

Agenda ? bigoted ? frustrated pilot training reject ? or just a pain in the hole?

Have a read of previous posting history & make your own mind up.

Shell Mismanagement...
 

A nice headline grabbing statement again by you.

As has been pointed out, it was a PPL operation.

Also the drugs involved were anti-Parkinson drugs (I do not off hand know whether these are allowed by an AME or not) and the alcohol was:

So not ideal conditions for flight, but not quite the "drugs and booze" fuelled flight you are trying to make it out to be.

Exeng, PPL holders can be perfectly professional pilots just as some Commercial pilots are not professional - there is a difference (and I don't mean in the licence held.)
The reaction on here to Commercial pilots who are convicted of flying with alcohol levels above the legal limit never ceases to amaze me. ANY pilot who flies in such a state is breaking the law and acting unprofessionally just as any driver breaking the legal limit would be. There is, therefore, no good reason why a pilot should be treated more leniently than a driver. NONE WHATSOEVER. It isn't just pilots who can lose their livelihood by having such a conviction, it happens to drivers too but for some reason a convicted driver doesn't attract an outbreak of hysteria demanding that (s)he should be treated differently. It's time to stop this ridiculous attitude and the pathetic attempts to justify the unjustifiable. If you have been drinking you should not fly/drive/operate machinery/ go to work if you are a doctor/nurse or other person in a position involving the care of other people etc. The same applies to those who take drugs.
Before anyone asks, I have never drunk alcohol and driven, flown or gone to work, nor do I have any convictions for doing so. I do think such people should be offered as much help as possible. I also happen to think that discussing a case before it has been to court is not sensible as a wrongly accused person can have his or her life ruined by such speculation - the old "There's no smoke without fire" saying. I also have absolutely NO problem with people enjoying alcoholic beverages - just not to the extent where they affect others.

Differing views
 

Balzer's book is a disturbing example of self-delusion and his account, which included portraying himself as the victim of a tyrannical captain (me), provoked a firestorm of letters from NWA pilots and Flt Attendants.

Some 67 letters went to the publisher but the most telling of all was a single letter from the President/CEO of NWA (at the time of the incident) that said if even a miniscule bit of his portrayal of me had been true I'd never have been brought back to fly at Northwest.

I later (Nov '11) published a memoir entitled "Final Approach" in which I told the nakedly true story of what took place, which includes my role in it. I make no excuses, blame no one, and I lay it all out as it actually occurred. Unlike Balzer, I did not take any creative license and manipulate the truth and the facts.

His account is so horribly fictitious with invented events that never took place and conversations that never occurred, that I was hard-pressed to find anything at all that was marginally recognizable from the standpoint of truth. And even then, they were so hyper embellished and exaggerated that they did not fall within the zone of truthfulness.

Balzer has since fallen on some more hard times of his own making but I wish him well. No one enjoys watching someone suffer...but he's been his own worst enemy since our fateful flight.

FOs showing up drunk...Captains ratting out their FOs...